SHACK ATTACK: Radioshack fail dismally!

[Cobblestones]

The said thing about this whole side trip into Armstrong's huge ego is all the riders who joined Radio Shack thinking they were joining a real race team. Both Horner and Jani had their chances of riding high in the GC destroyed by doing escort duty for a has been who was too selfish to let the team adjust to his subpar abilities. After the Tour those poor riders will struggle to crawl out of the wreckage of Retirement Shack.

On the other hand, everyone knows these guys will make excellent domestiques.

 

[metaCYCLE]

On the other hand, everyone knows these guys will make excellent domestiques.

i'm not taking even that for granted anymore...

 

[Lady Luck]

The said thing about this whole side trip into Armstrong's huge ego is all the riders who joined Radio Shack thinking they were joining a real race team. Both Horner and Jani had their chances of riding high in the GC destroyed by doing escort duty for a has been who was too selfish to let the team adjust to his subpar abilities. After the Tour those poor riders will struggle to crawl out of the wreckage of Retirement Shack.

I don't think Horner and Jani were or are serious GC contenders, and Jani was in trouble before Armstrong.

Armstrong obviously told them to go up the road so clearly he put the team first.

Have you noticed that some people either people say the team is crap, or they blame Armstrong for holding the team back. It doesn't make a lot of sense. Trolling even.

 

[Lady Luck]

Given Armstrong's performance in the prologue and the other previous stages, like his amazing fight back on the cobbles, he was clearly rightfully the team leader coming into the mountains. You can't really argue with that.

 

[ulrikmm]

Ok, but no one told Armstrong to come out of retirement. Or to decide to challenge the best stage racer in the game. Or to talk about winning an eighth Tour. He set himself up for this failure. I suspect you are a fan of his, and so it hurts to see folks take pleasure in his demise. He kicked and p!ssed on a lot of folks on the way up. So it will be on his way down.

So true -treat people well when you are going up - you will meet them again when you go down.

 

[Wallace]

Hatred erodes the soul, and most every one cheats.

Since the only two options in this matter seem to be hater and chamois-sniffer, I'll just say that if my soul is being eroded, it's happening very, very slowly--it's a lovely day, I'm going for a ride and the athlete I hate most is out of contention. I couldn't be happier.

Meanwhile, what's the chamois bouquet like right about now?

 

[Mellow Velo]

I don't think Horner and Jani were or are serious GC contenders, and Jani was in trouble before Armstrong.

Armstrong obviously told them to go up the road so clearly he put the team first.

Have you noticed that some people either people say the team is crap, or they blame Armstrong for holding the team back. It doesn't make a lot of sense. Trolling even.

Horner finished 4 minutes down on the leaders, having been 4 minutes down, when he left Lance.
He's 6 and a half minutes down in the GC, but could have been at 2 and a half.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[Lady Luck]

Horner finished 4 minutes down on the leaders, having been 4 minutes down, when he left Lance.
He's 6 and a half minutes down in the GC, but could have been at 2 and a half.

Hope that makes sense.

So what are you saying? That despite being better in the prologue and looking the better rider until today's stage, Armstrong should have just decided that Chris Horner was team leader and everyone should have worked for him?

This type of criticism is circular. Before today the line of attack was the team wasn't supposed to be good enough to help Armstrong.

 

[RdBiker]

Horner finished 4 minutes down on the leaders, having been 4 minutes down, when he left Lance.
He's 6 and a half minutes down in the GC, but could have been at 2 and a half.

Hope that makes sense.

Leipheimer and Klöden were left to ride their own race and I think neither of them did miracles: former finished with the group while the latter got dropped a good way from the top. As said earlier, Brajkovic was dropped before he was assigned to help Armstrong so I think Lance is simply the only one who can (or could until today) contest a podium place

 

[bobs nob]

Since the only two options in this matter seem to be hater and chamois-sniffer, I'll just say that if my soul is being eroded, it's happening very, very slowly--it's a lovely day, I'm going for a ride and the athlete I hate most is out of contention. I couldn't be happier.

Meanwhile, what's the chamois bouquet like right about now?

Ever left raw chicken in the fridge about 6 weeks too long? Probably a lot like that.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Klöden was already a GC longshot after yesterday. He was on and off the back on Ramaz. He could easily have become the second chaperone.
I suppose it shows that, like LadyLuck and you good self, RS don't believe Horner could get anywhere in the GC.
Fair enough both, but Horner would have been more useful as a threat, than Klöden.
Now, neither man is a factor.

 

[bobs nob]

No Publicus, I dont like the guy. Back in the early 90's I dated a girl that raced the same Jr Tri curcuits he did. I have always known what a prick he was. But as with Michael Jordan, I recognize truly talented athletes, and can accept their accomplishments, even though I may hate their guts. (And for me this is a long list.)

The irony of this is, LA coming out of retirement allows those who have harbored a visceral hatred of the man to wallow in that hatred for yet another year, and, I suspect, culminating today. Frankly, it is more an indictment upon their own character.

I never hated him UNTIL he came out of retirement and displayed nothing but classlessness towards AC. Had he stayed away, I'd have blissfully/ignorantly gone on spewing the myth. His despicable behavior last year was like a splash of cold water. But yes, lots of other people hated him before I did. Until I really watched the sport year round rather than July- other than the mainstream news clippings- I had no clue what a fraud he truly is.

 

[Anonymous]

I never hated him UNTIL he came out of retirement and displayed nothing but classlessness towards AC. Had he stayed away, I'd have blissfully/ignorantly gone on spewing the myth. His despicable behavior last year was like a splash of cold water. But yes, lots of other people hated him before I did. Until I really watched the sport year round rather than July- other than the mainstream news clippings- I had no clue what a fraud he truly is.

I was indifferent to Armstrong before last year.

I dis-liked the formulaic approach he brought to bike racing, it made it dull and predictable.

I hated that.

But he brought us much greater access to the sport.

I appreciated that.

I was really indifferent to him.

I always assumed he was dirty but didn't think about it much beyond that.

His behaviour, his performance and the unmasked evil that he displayed towards his own teammate last year, dropped me off the fence with a thud.

I ceased to be indifferent, very much so.

After today, and the possibility that I will no longer have to put up with his "tweets" and other nonsense, makes me very happy.

The sooner he goes away the better.

 

[drtomiumb]

Your ego is writing checks your body can't cash--from Top Gun. Ouch. Pride goes before a fall. In this case, literally. I hope a talented clean American with some quality of character becomes the focus of our need for a reasonable homeboy hero. I feel ashamed of Armstrong's bitterness towards anyone who opposes him; I feel sad that it is so hard for American riders to fill his shoes. The TdF is not as fun without an American favorite. Hoping for an underdog when the underdog hasn't been cleared by the vet is kind of pitiful.

 

[Angliru]

Cheated? And your source is? Please link us to his failed drug tests, otherwise all this is just conspiracy theory nonsense and hate. And leave the BIG D to The Clinic.
LA had 7 years of amazingly good luck; no mechanicals when they would have ended his tour, no bad crashes ending his tour, it was a phenomanal run, mostly due to obsessive planning.
I'm bummed he was not up there, his TDSwiss performance looked promising. The more contenders, the more interesting it is.
Hopefully he can rebound and maybe make for some fun stages later on.

This entire season for Armstrong has been example one of a rider not focused on the task at hand. He's had more crashes this year than I believe he's had in his entire 7 year run. He admitted to Frankie Andreau that one of the crashes was caused by him clipping a pedal in a turn. That is really racing 101 there and shows that his heart is really not in it. It may have been initially but it seems that each successive month he's lost the map. It kind of reminds me of the game in the playoffs where LeBron James played like he was already thinking of his pending free agency and his eventual escape from Cleveland.

 

[bobs nob]

This entire season for Armstrong has been example one of a rider not focused on the task at hand. He's had more crashes this year than I believe he's had in his entire 7 year run. He admitted to Frankie Andreau that one of the crashes was caused by him clipping a pedal in a turn. That is really racing 101 there and shows that his heart is really not in it. It may have been initially but it seems that each successive month he's lost the map. It kind of reminds me of the game in the playoffs where LeBron James played like he was already thinking of his pending free agency and his eventual escape from Cleveland.

The big crash he had was the one where he clipped his own pedal. Go look at the video link that publicus posted. The crash is in the first 5 seconds. So it isn't 'bad luck'. A case of someone either believing his own myth or just doing it for the cash. (Or a combo of the two.)

 

[Angliru]

The big crash he had was the one where he clipped his own pedal. Go look at the video link that publicus posted. The crash is in the first 5 seconds. So it isn't 'bad luck'. A case of someone either believing his own myth or just doing it for the cash. (Or a combo of the two.)

I don't recall using the word "bad luck" in my post. My point was that when one does not have the proper focus, they are more inclined to making mistakes and being careless. Being in a fast moving peloton of riders is not a good time to be thnking of how much one regrets the decision that put them in the element that their currently in.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I don't think Horner and Jani were or are serious GC contenders, and Jani was in trouble before Armstrong.

It's not just Horner and Jani though. Yaroslav Popovych was one of the most sought-after young prospects a few years ago. He was 5th in the Giro in 2004 and wore the maglia rosa for a few days. Now he's a guy who's nothing but a domestique, some way down the Radioshack food chain and who seems mostly just happy to get a paycheck (though he was pining for the Giro earlier in the year). Sergio Paulinho may never have been a GC contender, but he was an exciting and aggressive climber in his youth. Now he's nothing but a lower slopes plugger. I desperately hope the same doesn't happen to Tiago Machado, who is one of the most kamikaze riders I've ever seen. Or was, until he arrived at Bruyneel's teams.

Bruyneel's tactics are all about playing defense, and they're all about taking riders with a lot of upside and vast potential, like Popo, Paulinho and Jani, and using them as slaves until their will to race for themselves is gone. Klöden is a PERFECT fit for them, because he's a rider with a huge talent level but who doesn't like working for himself. Cobo and Szmyd should be the kind of riders they use in that kind of role, for the same reason, not attacking, exciting riders and potential GC contenders who are never given the chance to develop in a free role...

 

[editedbymod]

From what we know now. Tts fairly easy to charge up your team to the point that they can ride the entire peloton of their wheels. Tactics don't apply in that scenario. Just ride to no one is left.

I hope to that Machado can shine. If they let him. But I don't think there are any tactics anymore in a team radioshack.

It's not just Horner and Jani though. Yaroslav Popovych was one of the most sought-after young prospects a few years ago. He was 5th in the Giro in 2004 and wore the maglia rosa for a few days. Now he's a guy who's nothing but a domestique, some way down the Radioshack food chain and who seems mostly just happy to get a paycheck (though he was pining for the Giro earlier in the year). Sergio Paulinho may never have been a GC contender, but he was an exciting and aggressive climber in his youth. Now he's nothing but a lower slopes plugger. I desperately hope the same doesn't happen to Tiago Machado, who is one of the most kamikaze riders I've ever seen. Or was, until he arrived at Bruyneel's teams.

Bruyneel's tactics are all about playing defense, and they're all about taking riders with a lot of upside and vast potential, like Popo, Paulinho and Jani, and using them as slaves until their will to race for themselves is gone. Klöden is a PERFECT fit for them, because he's a rider with a huge talent level but who doesn't like working for himself. Cobo and Szmyd should be the kind of riders they use in that kind of role, for the same reason, not attacking, exciting riders and potential GC contenders who are never given the chance to develop in a free role...

 

[Lady Luck]

It's not just Horner and Jani though. Yaroslav Popovych was one of the most sought-after young prospects a few years ago. He was 5th in the Giro in 2004 and wore the maglia rosa for a few days. Now he's a guy who's nothing but a domestique, some way down the Radioshack food chain and who seems mostly just happy to get a paycheck (though he was pining for the Giro earlier in the year). Sergio Paulinho may never have been a GC contender, but he was an exciting and aggressive climber in his youth. Now he's nothing but a lower slopes plugger. I desperately hope the same doesn't happen to Tiago Machado, who is one of the most kamikaze riders I've ever seen. Or was, until he arrived at Bruyneel's teams.

Bruyneel's tactics are all about playing defense, and they're all about taking riders with a lot of upside and vast potential, like Popo, Paulinho and Jani, and using them as slaves until their will to race for themselves is gone. Klöden is a PERFECT fit for them, because he's a rider with a huge talent level but who doesn't like working for himself. Cobo and Szmyd should be the kind of riders they use in that kind of role, for the same reason, not attacking, exciting riders and potential GC contenders who are never given the chance to develop in a free role...

Well cycling is a team sport - there are plenty of riders across the peloton that are often stronger than their team leader on a certain given day but aren't allowed to do anything because of the team orders. There's nothing unusual about that. Being in a cycling team is like being in the military - you do what you're told for the most part.

I don't think we should pretend that this is something that Armstrong and Bruyneel invented. If they didn't want to be in his hand picked team then they shouldn't have joined it. It's hard to have great sympathy.

 

[Magnus]

What a failure radioshack are! They failed badly today.

What do you mean?

They won the team classification in the Tour of Austria by a whooping 0 seconds!

 

[ScottyMuser]

So what are you saying? That despite being better in the prologue and looking the better rider until today's stage, Armstrong should have just decided that Chris Horner was team leader and everyone should have worked for him?

This type of criticism is circular. Before today the line of attack was the team wasn't supposed to be good enough to help Armstrong.

Really? I always thought the "line of attack" was Armstrong wasn't good enough, and he could have the best team ever supporting him but he would still struuggle to podium? And *today* after his 2nd crash, it was right for Armstrong to use up Popo and Mureyev a little to take him back to the peloton (that was waiting), few people are debating that part (although I haven't read a huge amount back).

What people (me included on other threads/forums) have been saying is that after he bonked on the first cat 1 climb, instead of having 3 of his lieutenants (including Horner who was ALWAYS looking like in better shape than armstrong the entire stage) accompany him as he went slower and slower, losing 5 mins fairly comprehensively before the peloton had really started to get the pace up on the lower slopes of the last, he should have used his "experience" to reaise he wasn't going to be able to get back on, and allowed Horner and another to try and get back on, or at least minimise *their* time losses.

Instead, he kept them with them, eating up some of their energey and time (in the case of horner, he was clearly soft pedalling and could have gained back a fair portion of time) he kept them with him for about 20 kms , before finally (and only after haivng to avoid a crash in front of him meaning that horner was 30secs+ up the road before realising he had left Lance behind) giving in, and allowing horner to chase back on. In the remaining time, Horner not only didn;t lose any time, he actually *GAINED* about 30 secs on the peloton, who were by then riding at their fastest and shelling riders left right and center. As a result, Horner finished 4 mins down, and is now 6 1/2 mins down in the GC.

If even 10km before the crash, when Lance was clearly struggling and knew it, he had let Horner go, with a similar performance, Horner probably could have come in less than 3 mins - poossibly within 2 mins down, and would have left RS with a little more options (and Horner probably AHEAD of Kloden in the GC, and within 5 mins of Evans). Instead, the initial selfishness of Armstrong of trying to keep his men back to help him when he was ALWAYS going to be 8+ mins behind (in the end, he was more than that I know) after initially bonking the way he did means its one less throw of the dice his team have, and to be honet, the man who looks like they're strongest rider come the mountains - save maybe Levi who hung on there without down one iota worth of work today, but showed earlier in the TOc that he will have a poor day in the mountains and beeasily distanced by all).

 

[Angliru]

All of these guys are in awe of Armstrong. I think they would lose a limb for him if asked. Add to that the bond between Bruyneel and Armstrong and it's likely that it effects Bruyneel's decision making on occasion. They just feel fortunate to be on the same team with him and to ride for him. Contador likely felt the same prior to the Armstrong's announcement of his return to the sport. He knew the bond that existed and thus saw the writing on the wall.

This has all been bantered about since the beginning of the 2009 season. Contador was less than willing to simply fall in line unlike Kloden, Leipheimer and Horner. Add to the already present animosity that Armstrong held towards Contador that was likely heightened when he crashed in a race that he had no prior plans on taking part before Bruyneel gave in to Contador's wishes that he and Armstrong race together prior to the Tour.

As was stated earlier, the current Shack riders are all personalities that are more than willing to be "slaves" to the Armstrong dream of winning #8.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Well cycling is a team sport - there are plenty of riders across the peloton that are often stronger than their team leader on a certain given day but aren't allowed to do anything because of the team orders. There's nothing unusual about that. Being in a cycling team is like being in the military - you do what you're told for the most part.

Very much so, but the way many of the riders at the Shack have been treated has turned them from potential Generals into subservient Privates. The problem is not having riders working for a leader; it's the total inflexibility and constant wasting of riders who could - and should - have become so much more.

 

[Lady Luck]

Really? I always thought the "line of attack" was Armstrong wasn't good enough, and he could have the best team ever supporting him but he would still struuggle to podium?.

That had been the line of attack until the cobbled stage and the medium mountain stage on Saturday, both of which Armstrong looked better than his team. Then it turned to "what happened to the great team"? Now it's obviously back to the old one about Armstrong holding back great riders who'd be winning the race if it wasn't for him.

They'll use anything. During the stage today some said he would be a whimp if he pullout. Now that he has said he is staying some of them are already saying the decent thing would have been to pullout and quit hogging the lime light.

I think you have overanalyzed the situation in the rest of your post. It's Armstrong's team and he had been the best rider until today in any event, so it was only right that the team have a good crack at helping trying to get back on in the second climb. It didn't work out and he allowed them to go. It's easy to look back in hindsight and say they would have faired better if he'd released them a minute or two earlier, but that's always the way with domestiques.

I don't think we should nit pick and whine about it.