• The Cycling News forum is looking to add some volunteer moderators with Red Rick's recent retirement. If you're interested in helping keep our discussions on track, send a direct message to @SHaines here on the forum, or use the Contact Us form to message the Community Team.

    In the meanwhile, please use the Report option if you see a post that doesn't fit within the forum rules.

    Thanks!

Sky and cycling's landed gentry

Page 2 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
In a sport without a salary cap - some teams will inevitably have more money than the others. To say they should go and play on their own is childish.
To criticise the ethics of their recruitments techniques may be fair, but to criticise them just for having more money and/or spending it wisely doesn't make sense, they are just playing the game as well as they can.

Weird, I don't remember all this strife when Katusha launched last year.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
bianchigirl said:
As the original article indicates, we will continue to see a 'peloton a deux vitesses' - in exactly the way that the French imply. Concentrating money & power into the hands of a very few superteams will only mean one thing - riders doping to get into the 'superleague/premiereship'.
.

But its always been like that to a certain extent, there have always been power teams.

But QS's classics squad rivals any other team, saxo as as strong as RS, i dont think there are power players in cycling so much as there have been, things are much more balanced.

I think an awful lot of what is said about Sky is a bit blown up and exxagerated at the moment anyway.. A comment neil has made on his blog

Marketing to the UK public has been criticised for its ambitious soundings - “we will win the TdF within the next 5 years” and also Brailsfords' comments on clean cycling have been perceived as “we are here to save cycling” although this more perception than actual message. Firstly in this soundbite media age what do you want Sky to say “Hi we are looking to make up the numbers in the peleton, hopefully we might get a stage win in the next year or so and hey guys we aim to win the odd classic that you have never heard of”, come on lets be realistic. If your looking to force the established sports off the back pages or sports headlines on websites then I am afraid you have throw out an such optimistic headlines

Hes got a good point.. there is an awful lot of hype about sky, sky say they will change cycling, sky say they will win the tour.. it needs to be put in just a little bit of persepective..

a big four? I dont think so, i actually think 2010 could be one of the most open seasons in years.. Financially some teams have more clout, but thats always been the way. its results that count.

Sneekes said:
In a sport without a salary cap - some teams will inevitably have more money than the others. To say they should go and play on their own is childish.
To criticise the ethics of their recruitments techniques may be fair, but to criticise them just for having more money and/or spending it wisely doesn't make sense, they are just playing the game as well as they can.

Weird, I don't remember all this strife when Katusha launched last year.

+1

bianchigirl said:
Personally I wouldn't give a flying one if I never had to watch Wiggins/Armstrong/Leipheimer or Cavendish in a race again.

really?
 
Mar 18, 2009
1,003
0
0
Visit site
Absolutely, dim, Wiggins is a one season wonder, Cavendish's only real opposition is a rider on the same team and as for the other, 2011 can't come quickly enough (funny that Ferrari has announced his own retirement in 2011, isn't it?). Besides, none of these riders are genuine contenders for great honours in 2010. There is so much to enjoy in the sport beyond a bunch of hyped up riders who happen to speak English.

Seriously, if Sky's supposed 'revolution' meant a better deal for domestiques and support staff across the sport - great. But the Premiership/F1 model is not the appropriate one for cycling - wealth and power located in a relatively small group of teams contesting an ever more restricted calendar with good races falling by the wayside through lack of interest or finance? Ariege (the department of Ax-3-D and Pamiers) is already saying this is the last year they'll be able to afford the race. But then I'm sure everyone will be delighted when it becomes the Lance Armstrong Tour de France and takes place in Texas :rolleyes:
 
May 15, 2009
205
0
0
Visit site
bianchigirl said:
Absolutely, dim, Wiggins is a one season wonder

What a ridiculuous thing to say at this point.

bianchigirl said:
Cavendish's only real opposition is a rider on the same team

Hushovd? Petacchi?

bianchigirl said:
Besides, none of these riders are genuine contenders for great honours in 2010.

Again, really? Sure if you are completely naive and only believe winning a Grand Tour is a 'great honour'.
Look at Cavendish, not only is he likely to take more wins than anyone else, he is likely to be there or thereabout in Milan San Remo once again (a one-day monument dont forget) as well as being favourite for the Green jersey.
 
Mar 13, 2009
2,890
0
0
Visit site
There are so many teams out there, with so many different models. Apart from increased media coverage I can't see that sky is doing anything drastically different to say Saxo or Columbia.
 
May 15, 2009
205
0
0
Visit site
lucybears said:
What an absolutely accurate thing to say at this point

You cannot dismiss somebody as a 'one season wonder' when they havent yet had a second season (in terms of being a GT rider)

lucybears said:
does he ride for Sky ?

Your post mentions Wiggins, then Cavendish, then says that none of these riders are going to contend for major honours. So clearly Cavendish' team did not bother you when you made the post.
 
Sum_of_Marc said:
You cannot dismiss somebody as a 'one season wonder' when they havent yet had a second season (in terms of being a GT rider)
Without that second season he is at this point a 'one season wonder'




QUOTE=Sum_of_Marc;133772] Your post mentions Wiggins, then Cavendish, then says that none of these riders are going to contend for major honours. So clearly Cavendish' team did not bother you when you made the post. [/QUOTE]

My post ?
 
May 15, 2009
205
0
0
Visit site
lucybears said:
Without that second season he is at this point a 'one season wonder'

Is there anything to point to the fact that he wont emulate last years performance though? He is now with a team who, not only is he accustomed to with his track cycling success, but who are completely behind him as team leader. You could argue that Garmin would provide more support, and yes while Vandevelde is stronger than Lovkvist, had Wiggins stayed there, Garmin would have approached the Tour with a 2-leader strategy - perhaps even geared more towards the American rider on the American team.

If this year, an injury free Wiggins has gone to the Tour in top shape and been nowhere near the Top 10 GC, then in 12 months time the 'one season wonder' term would be more acceptable. But right now it remains ridiculous.

Sum_of_Marc said:
Your post mentions Wiggins, then Cavendish, then says that none of these riders are going to contend for major honours. So clearly Cavendish' team did not bother you when you made the post.

My post ?

Sorry, didnt look at usernames, just assumed it would be the same person.
 
Mar 18, 2009
1,003
0
0
Visit site
I think he means mine, LB. Let's see - will Cavendish take the Green Jersey? Unlikely. Repeat his success at M-SR? Possibly but there are a host of other Classics out there e.g. Paris-Tours, the 'Sprinters Classic' which are unlikely to be graced by Cavendish's presence. Petacchi is past his best and Hushovd not a pure sprinter (but a foxier rider tactically). Cavendish is also unlikely to win a Worlds any time soon with support from an IoM team. Beyond racking up a load of GT stage wins against fairly weak opposition, what is Cavendish's outstanding achievement? And he certainly won't be challenging for a GT win anytime soon :lol:

Wiggins has been schlepping around the roads of Europe for years in races like the Tour de Poitou Charentes (now please tell me SoM that you know all about that parcours). If the Pyrenees hadn't been neutered, and if the Garmin team hadn't produced in the TTT, where do you place Wiggins overall? Did he once produce an attack that stuck? Or win a TT? Or look like winning a stage? He had a few lucky breaks and was able to stay with the final selection in the Alps - except when Contador and Schleck attacked, to which he had absolutely no answers. 2010 is liable to see more contenders, more focused and, with the absence of a TTT and the huge presence of the Pyrenees (let alone lack of opportunity to make time in the TTs - though I'm unaware that Wiggins outrode Contador in those either) I fail to see where Wiggins will make his time over Contador - or Schleck, Menchov, Evans etc etc. And what does Wiggins want to win except for the TdF? Don't see him riding Paris-Roubaix, the Ardennes, the Giro as a serious contender, do you?
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
bianchigirl said:
Cavendish is also unlikely to win a Worlds any time soon

You dont mind if i keep a copy of this just in case i need it do you.. :D
 
I think the issue is talking in absolutes (or near absolutes), a point I think Dimspace is subtly making.

I am a) very hopeful that Wiggins will do well in 2010, be it in the the tour and the Giro (he has targetted prologue/pink among other things).

but b) will not be desperately surprised if 2010 doesn't compare well with 2009 for him.
 
May 15, 2009
205
0
0
Visit site
will Cavendish take the Green Jersey? Unlikely
Unlikely? Any reason for that exactly?
He would have won it this year if not for the stage where he was disqualified, and last year he went in to it denying that he was going for Green. This year he has already said that he is targeting Green.

Cavendish is also unlikely to win a Worlds any time soon with support from an IoM team.
Oh dear... :rolleyes: At least get your knowledge right before trying to argue something in your favour.

Beyond racking up a load of GT stage wins against fairly weak opposition, what is Cavendish's outstanding achievement?

What an extremely negative way to look at it. Cavendish is the Worlds best sprinter, and that is because he is so much better than the others in an out and out sprint. That is the 'outstanding achievement'

And he certainly won't be challenging for a GT win anytime soon :lol:
And if you think that is the be all and end all, you clearly dont understand cycling.

Wiggins has been schlepping around the roads of Europe for years in races like the Tour de Poitou Charentes (now please tell me SoM that you know all about that parcours). If the Pyrenees hadn't been neutered, and if the Garmin team hadn't produced in the TTT, where do you place Wiggins overall? Did he once produce an attack that stuck? Or win a TT? Or look like winning a stage? He had a few lucky breaks and was able to stay with the final selection in the Alps - except when Contador and Schleck attacked, to which he had absolutely no answers. 2010 is liable to see more contenders, more focused and, with the absence of a TTT and the huge presence of the Pyrenees (let alone lack of opportunity to make time in the TTs - though I'm unaware that Wiggins outrode Contador in those either) I fail to see where Wiggins will make his time over Contador - or Schleck, Menchov, Evans etc etc. And what does Wiggins want to win except for the TdF? Don't see him riding Paris-Roubaix, the Ardennes, the Giro as a serious contender, do you?

Wiggins is on an upward curve. Prior to 2009, his main focus was Track Cycling and he also did not have the most supportive teams. He has said in his book that he did not enjoy his time at the French teams particularly, while at Columbia he was just another part of the sprint train for Cavendish. Since then there has been the documented weight loss, and full focus on the road - something that is only likely to continue with no IP in 2012 - and in a supportive team structure (first Garmin, and now Sky).

The realistic target for Wiggins at this years Tour is 3rd place. At current nobody can match Contador on the climbs, with Andy Schleck still a solid 2nd. Of course Wiggins needs a further improvement to get 3rd, but he is capable of beating the likes of Armstrong, Evans and Menchov - i personally dont see Armstrong getting any better, while you can never seem to tell which Evans or which Menchov will turn up - a bigger threat may come instead from Gesink or one of the Liquigas riders. But also this year, Wiggins is going to be more experienced at dealing with the Mountains - last year he was learning as the race went on, and any experience gained is bound to help this year.
And with the time trials, there may not be much, but Wiggins is at current the 2nd best GT rider in TTs, behind Contador - so he will be expected to gain time on his rivals there
 
mc_mountain said:
I am a) very hopeful that Wiggins will do well in 2010, be it in the the tour and the Giro (he has targetted prologue/pink among other things).

but b) will not be desperately surprised if 2010 doesn't compare well with 2009 for him.

Almost +1

a) I would like Wiggins to do well in 2010, but I am not very hopeful

b) and will not be surprised at all if 2010 doesn't compare well with 2009 for him.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
lucybears said:
Almost +1

a) I would like Wiggins to do well in 2010, but I am not very hopeful

b) and will not be surprised at all if 2010 doesn't compare well with 2009 for him.

I think he will wear pink in the giro winning the prologue and the hilly time trial, will win in flanders, and the amstel gold, before winning the tour de france, and crowning a fine season with a world championship after jumping out of cavs lead out train and going for it alone with 2k to go..

now pass me another drink.. hic..

burp...
 
Mar 18, 2009
1,003
0
0
Visit site
Sorry, I thought Leipheimer was the closest rider to Contador in TTs? But silly me, what do I know - only that Cavendish is a sprinting Manxman (surprised you didn't understand the jokes, seeing as you are the oracle on all things Cavendish) who has achieved what outside GT wins exactly? If GTs are not the be all and end all then on what do we posit Cavendish's oustanding achievement? Where's the string of Classics wins and Points Jerseys? I'm the last person to appreciate a narrow focus on the GTs of the sport but I'm interested to see what Cavendish's achievement is outside the GTs because a detailed analysis of his palmares leaves me at a loss. He's great from a lead out train but where that same lead out will come from in any GB team I'll be interested to see - and now that there are other GB riders with aspirations to win big, will he even get it all his own way? His M-SR win may presage the ability to come off the right wheel a la McEwen and take his chances (though Hincapie must take a deal of the credit), but sprinters either tend to win from the train or by being opportunistic. If Cavendish develops the ability to win in all situations and to control the sprint for himself then he may start achieving some well rounded palmares. But he's young - plenty of time to learn not to get disqualified from sprints and lose the big prize.

I still don't buy Wiggins as a genuine Tour contender. We've all heard the weight loss story before to explain a sudden leap in GT ability (now who was that? Someone with whom Brad shared some interesting blood values) but a team as professional and well prepared as Garmin sent him to the Tour with no training in the mountains. Sure and I hopped on my bike to go out for some eggs in 1984 and ended up winning the Giro. You really shouldn't take everything the PR machine spins you at face value. Far better to study the rider, talk to him, see him plying his trade at those tiny Euro races (guess I forgot to mention I worked on the Tour de Poitou Charentes). I wish him well, I'm sure he'll love all the opportunities to Twit and blog and have media training and play with his iphone but does that make him the dead cert GC contender he wants to be? I don't buy it, you do - each to their own. But I suggest you go back to the 2010 TdF parcours and the probable contenders before you hand Wiggins a place on the podium.
 
Mar 18, 2009
1,003
0
0
Visit site
dimspace said:
I think he will wear pink in the giro winning the prologue and the hilly time trial, will win in flanders, and the amstel gold, before winning the tour de france, and crowning a fine season with a world championship after jumping out of cavs lead out train and going for it alone with 2k to go..

now pass me another drink.. hic..

burp...

Now why couldn't I have said that instead of wasting all that space trying to argue the toss :D
 
dimspace said:
I think he will wear pink in the giro winning the prologue and the hilly time trial, will win in flanders, and the amstel gold, before winning the tour de france, and crowning a fine season with a world championship after jumping out of cavs lead out train and going for it alone with 2k to go..

now pass me another drink.. hic..

burp...

hehehe

he's not bothering to ride L-B-L then!

-

i'm looking at vuelta a andalucia as the first chance to show us something...
 
dimspace said:
I think he will wear pink in the giro winning the prologue and the hilly time trial, will win in flanders, and the amstel gold, before winning the tour de france, and crowning a fine season with a world championship after jumping out of cavs lead out train and going for it alone with 2k to go..

now pass me another drink.. hic..

burp...

If he does any of that, except wearing pink in the giro and/or winning the prologue, I'll buy.
The Sky trooper is a rider that might surprise, however
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/more_sport/cycling/article6982017.ece
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
bianchigirl said:
(guess I forgot to mention I worked on the Tour de Poitou Charentes).

To be fair, that hardly makes you the authority on all things Brad.. I once sold Judy Speirs a bottle of wine, doesnt mean I know everything there is to know about Gus Honeybun..

lucybears said:
If he does any of that, except wearing pink in the giro and/or winning the prologue, I'll buy.
The Sky trooper is a rider that might surprise, however
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/spo...cle6982017.ece

Peter has the raw talent and ability to achive just about what he wants. I do worry though that he is being talked about as grand tour winner, classics winner, world champion at such a young age.. Nothing like pressure before youve even had a single pro race..

PeterKennaugh said:
Publicly, Kennaugh took all the razzmatazz in his stride]“It’s like I’m playing for Manchester United now,[/B]” he says. “It's weird, awesome, but I feel like I should be here. I have worked for this for so long. It’s not just happened overnight.”

the kids got a sense of humour.. :D
 
Mar 18, 2009
1,003
0
0
Visit site
No just a way of demonstrating a commitment to the sport, I suppose.

If SKY are clever they will nurture Kennaugh as the lynchpin of the 5 year plan whilst setting Wiggins up to take the early fall, thus deflecting all pressure from Kennaugh.
 
bianchigirl said:
If SKY are clever they will nurture Kennaugh as the lynchpin of the 5 year plan whilst setting Wiggins up to take the early fall, thus deflecting all pressure from Kennaugh.

Of course if Wiggins disappoints by falling just out of the top 5 or top 10 at the Tour, there will perhaps be a hit to take in the media, but would still be a huge achievement. especially if followed up by more top 10 performances, or the odd significant stage wins in later years. consider if it had been suggested in 2005 that he could manage these kind of things, or in 2000 that UK riders would emerge to dominate bunch sprints and top 10 or better at a grand tour. (years picked at random so if anyone can point to some sign that this would be the case then fair enough)

bianchigirl said:
I still don't buy Wiggins as a genuine Tour contender. We've all heard the weight loss story before to explain a sudden leap in GT ability (now who was that? Someone with whom Brad shared some interesting blood values) but a team as professional and well prepared as Garmin sent him to the Tour with no training in the mountains.

I think there are perhaps 2 sides to this, he will have had mountain training but not hard mountain racing, which meant he perhaps did have a lot to learn on the job, but gave him and the team a surprise element. Wiggins himself has suggested that the weight loss thing is a bit of red herring, but I can consider myself 5 or 10 kilos lighter, i can see the small bumps I ride over seeming easier. its also something that can have a compound effect (affect?) over a 3 week race...

I have also stated before on these boards that I would like to see him ride hard at the Giro (even if that damages him at the Tour), without the top quality and quantity of contenders (now including Menchov) even though I have been led to believe the profile/route won't suit him, but as per your above post you don't feel the one at the Tour would suit him either.

I also note your statement about blood values, which is something I am struggling with internally for now.

from this article that lucybears posted on the teamskyfans site

http://www.veloresults.co.uk/2010/01/bradley-wiggins-sky-leader-at-the-team-launch/?forumid=271566

the statement

"As the season progressed I knew I couldn't stay at Garmin for reasons I can't go into.

unfortunately leapt out at me to perhaps indicate that Garmin wouldn't let him extend his programme (not saying whether or not I think he is/was on a programme). perhaps 6 months of reading these boards has made me cyncial.