Sky/Froome Talk Only (No Way Sky Are Cleans?)

[airstream]

Libertine, so you prefer consistency to proven doping in case of Valverde?

 

[LaFlorecita]

Sky is a race?

 

[sittingbison]

Enough of the "racism" comments. This is not open to debate.


bison

 

[maxmartin]

Enough of the "racism" comments. This is not open to debate.


bison

A racist should be banned for life period.

 

[ebandit]

talent

one thing we can be sure of is that froome always had talent after all he signed 'pro' / finished his first tour with a weak team

so posting 'he could not ride straight' is just trolling bs

question is 'how much talent?' team sky talk of froome 'hitting excellent numbers' but these figures are not available here

so members can only comment on what they see...........possible under performance pre team sky / over performance with team sky

he sure looks skinny..............powers along

personally i don't think he will ever win the tour..........but i said that about wiggo

remember he is a really 'nice guy' polite as hoggy's gran

Mark L

 

[coinneach]

He had a blood disease. That justifies weak performance, sure, but it also renders his biopassport nigh on useless, because we simply do not know where a reliable base line figure for Froome can, would or does lie.

It's also a very convenient illness in that it can explain away any biopassport anomalies, because it's unpredictable when it comes and goes, when you think you've got rid of it you may well not have done and so on. As I've said in the past, I believe that the bilharzia existed and was to a large extent responsible for Froome's lack of progression over a two year period - but I'm very suspicious that its characteristics make it a very easy disease to use to mask suspicious goings-on, and that it cleared up in time for his contract negotiations, then struck again making him perform so poorly that the 2010 Cobo would have put his arm around him to cheer him up, until Tour preparation time, just strikes me as far too convenient to swallow.

I believe Chris Froome had bilharzia, and that this is responsible for his poor performance ahead of his jump to fame. I also believe that Chris Froome doped and/or is doping and wholly lacking in credibility as a clean cyclist. He doesn't pass the smell test. You wouldn't need to go to these lengths to search for the justification to say somebody like Dan Martin is clean, because he's never done anything that we've baulked at, so it isn't such a stretch to believe. But with Froome, he's done so much that was so incredible (in both senses) that you need to go to all kinds of lengths to contort things around in such a way that can justify his performances being credible.

I don't think he is doping. His performance in last years Vuelta, when he finally got the chance to be team leader at at a GT, was entirely consistent with a clean rider who had raced too much that year.
But I do think he might be getting some benefit from the medication he's been proscribed for his bilharzia...its re-occurrence this winter struck me as a bit too convenient: he then got the medication which kills his red blood cells, so his body learns to make more, which because he is then hard in training, his body continues to make more.
I think that is a more likely scenario.
Sky/Froome need to be more open about such medical matters....given cycling's history with blood, we've every right to be suspicious

 

[JimmyFingers]

No contradiction. I think Froome had bilharzia, but I don't believe that the amount of talent he showed prior to the disease messing things up for him was enough to justify the enormous strides that he made, and also am suspicious of the timing of this huge jump (just before contract negotiations) followed by another down period. I therefore think that the improvement of Froome in August 2011 is more than can just be explained by "ill Froome/healthy Froome" just as Cobo's history of depression and struggles to fit in at Caisse d'Epargne mean that the difference between Cobo 2009 and 2010 is more than just "clean Cobo/dirty Cobo".

Also, I picked Martin not because he's supposedly clean (though he is) but because he just won one of the biggest races in the sport this weekend, so he's fresh in the memory. Martin won the Froome breakout stage to La Covatilla, in fact. I thought Froome was credible then, I thought he was a mountain domestique who buried himself for his leader and did an awesome job, and would probably be burning himself out in the first two weeks for the far more proven Löfkvist to take over in week 3 as Wiggins' domestique of choice. I even advocated that he soft pedal the ITT to be fresher for Wiggins, which shows you just how much I underestimated his ITT capabilities (he beat Cancellara the next day). Martin? He behaved like a typical climber, and lost much time, and thus there was no overperformance to raise an eyebrow at.

There have been guys who've come out of nowhere like Froome did... most of those fairytales ended the same way. And there have been guys who've conquered all before them like Froome does, or at least would if the team would let him... most of those stories ended the same way too. In the context of these, seeing a guy who was once a moderately promising youngster (but not as promising as, say, John-Lee Augustyn, who was younger and on the same team) suddenly turn into a guy who outclimbs Contador and out-TTs Cancellara. Are you seriously telling me you didn't wince slightly at that?

Vaughters has said he was desperate to sign Froome pre-Vuelta 2011, that he knew there was a big talent there. I think he had shown big numbers when tested at Aigle, and certainly at Sky:

"But then when we started working together I realised straight away that Chris needed some work on organisation and structure. He was a real tinkerer- always changing his shoes, his training, his diet or whatever. He had also continued to train too much even when he was suffering with the parasite, which had knocked his confidence as well as his energy levels.

Beyond that it was all very basic stuff last year; Chris did not know how to race. I needed to teach him how to get the watts out at the right time. To do that we tried to hold him back in the first few stages in the Vuelta last year, get him to race steadily and this year we basically used the same tactic at Romandie, the Dauphine and the Tour” Bobby Julich

He turned pro late, clearly was and to a degree still is very poor technically and he had a blood disease that destroys red blood cells. Yes he has had a leap in performance, but it one that is feasibly explained by these factors as much as it is by doping. Yes similar leaps have ended the same way but that doesn't mean this is a default situation, that every rider that has a beak out season like Froome did in 2011 is a doper. Particularly, which you acknowledge, he had a disease which had a negative effect on his ability to compete athletically and a poor bike handler and racer.

And we have plenty of examples of the latter. As for the former it is something incredible difficult to quantify, how much the impact was initially and how much recovery from it has improved his performance. However it is a given that his performance would improve once freed of a blood parasite, unless people are saying that bilharzia is a complete smokescreen.

So I'm not claiming Froome is clean, just that there is plausibility in the clean narrative, given the unknown and unmeasurable impact of the parasite. It is then up to the individual to give him the benefit of the doubt or not, but his leap in performance is far from a conclusive indication of drug use.

 

[Pentacycle]

He had a blood disease. That justifies weak performance, sure, but it also renders his biopassport nigh on useless, because we simply do not know where a reliable base line figure for Froome can, would or does lie.

It's also a very convenient illness in that it can explain away any biopassport anomalies, because it's unpredictable when it comes and goes, when you think you've got rid of it you may well not have done and so on. As I've said in the past, I believe that the bilharzia existed and was to a large extent responsible for Froome's lack of progression over a two year period - but I'm very suspicious that its characteristics make it a very easy disease to use to mask suspicious goings-on, and that it cleared up in time for his contract negotiations, then struck again making him perform so poorly that the 2010 Cobo would have put his arm around him to cheer him up, until Tour preparation time, just strikes me as far too convenient to swallow.

I believe Chris Froome had bilharzia, and that this is responsible for his poor performance ahead of his jump to fame. I also believe that Chris Froome doped and/or is doping and wholly lacking in credibility as a clean cyclist. He doesn't pass the smell test. You wouldn't need to go to these lengths to search for the justification to say somebody like Dan Martin is clean, because he's never done anything that we've baulked at, so it isn't such a stretch to believe. But with Froome, he's done so much that was so incredible (in both senses) that you need to go to all kinds of lengths to contort things around in such a way that can justify his performances being credible.

Totally agree that Bilharzia could've been a cover-up for blood doping, but not in the past year or so. If he was blood doping for the 2011 Vuelta, then he surely must be doing it now as well. What do you for example think of riders like Scarponi or Hesjedal preparing for the Giro? Scarponi podiumed Catalunya at first, and then mysteriously weakened some time before Trentino, after which he was suddenly one of the best again in LBL. Same goes for Hesjedal; he was a big force in LBL, but he hasn't performed at all before, and now after that race in Romandie. Big chance they've both been collecting BB's over the past few weeks, and injecting some of the blood of them already. Froome however hasn't had any sudden, unexpected decrease in performance.

And it's also a fact that in East-Africa doping is widespread among long-distance runners. However,I disagree he's definitely been doping in his early years. Did he deliver such great performances around that time? He was actually very equal to some others riders from '85-'86-'87 like, Fuglsang, Frank, Mollema, Zeits, Morkov, Gautier, Bole. Nothing suspicious there, he had a good first pro year in 2008, and a decent 2009, he picks up that parasite. After that clears up, he continues his progression as if he hadn't been ill. Nothing suggests in 2007 he couldn't reach the level he has now, just like for example Mollema and Fuglsang were big talents in that time. Or were they doping as well?

 

[sittingbison]

A racist should be banned for life period.

A racist WILL be baninated for life period. Problem is identifying what is racist and what is "racist" as I indicated. Language difficulties and the like.

The warning stands.

bison

 

[Walkman]

A racist should be banned for life period.

Uhm...I am sure things are great in North Korea but in most of the rest of the world we have something called freedom of speech.

 

[Lanark]

Uhm...I am sure things are great in North Korea but in most of the rest of the world we have something called freedom of speech.

Unless the cyclingnews forum admin are part of the government, that's hardly relevant here.

But let's not digress, and laugh a bit more about Chris Froome.

 

[The Hitch]

I don't think he is doping. His performance in last years Vuelta, when he finally got the chance to be team leader at at a GT, was entirely consistent with a clean rider who had raced too much that year.

It was entirely consistant with a doping rider who's raced too much that year. What clean 2 gt attempts are you comparing it with ?

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

So I'm not claiming Froome is clean, just that there is plausibility in the clean narrative, given the unknown and unmeasurable impact of the parasite. It is then up to the individual to give him the benefit of the doubt or not, but his leap in performance is far from a conclusive indication of drug use.

Just a few examples:
* Toni Rominger [at least showed potential/class in short races before his hayfever got cured, was also doped at those short races of course, being a Ferrari protege from the get go]
* Lance Armstrong
* all the phonies with supposedly 'natural high hematocrit', like Sky's PR buffoon, David Dario Cioni

It was entirely consistant with a doping rider who's raced too much that year. What clean 2 gt attempts are you comparing it with ?

Contador 2011.

edit:
Forgot the sarcastic smile there.

 

[Walkman]

But let's not digress, and laugh a bit more about Chris Froome.

I am actually only laughing at all the Mr. Steak and piti fans who are crying all the time about Froome and SKY's extensive doping program. It was all fun and game when their favorites won but now when someone else is at the top there no stopping in telling everyone about how unfair it is and how big cheaters SKY is. I am really enjoying it!

 

[airstream]

I am actually only laughing at all the Mr. Steak and piti fans who are crying all the time about Froome and SKY's extensive doping program. It was all fun and game when their favorites won but now when someone else is at the top there no stopping in telling everyone about how unfair it is and how big cheaters SKY is. I am really enjoying it!

+million

About who and what do such fans complain is something I'll never understand.

Domination of Contador is ok;
Valverde who looks stronger than ever in his career in the Vuelta straight after comeback from suspension is ok;
Rodriguez who finishes all the races he enters for 2 years either with stage wins or with podium is ok as well...
But Froome who beats Peraud and Mollema in the CI is doping!

Smells like double standarts boys.


Sorry, Fearless Greg Lemond, what direct analogies can be drawn between Rominger and Sky?

 

[JimmyFingers]

Just a few examples:
* Toni Rominger [at least showed potential/class in short races before his hayfever got cured, was also doped at those short races of course, being a Ferrari protege from the get go]
* Lance Armstrong
* all the phonies with supposedly 'natural high hematocrit', like Sky's PR buffoon, David Dario Cioni

Fairy nuff, but as I was saying while his leap in performance is explanable by doping, the clean narrative is also very feasible, given the unknowns. As I said, it's whether you give him the benefit of doubt. I'm guessing which way you'll go on that

 

[Cycle Chic]

Froome on his own

True - Froome is the British Contador...if we could all speak Spanish we would be on the Spanish cycling forums in the Clinic

But FROOME - He has the demeanour of a very guilty man...watch the bit when he has sat down after the prologue and his soigneur is there - the soigneur shakes his head and shuts his eyes gesturing 'wow, just wow'.

Even the soigneur cannot believe what he has just seen. Froome then asks if he won...yeh right Chris like you don't know you just blasted everyone out the park....he asks again 'did I get it'.

Theres no wild celebration like we saw Dan Martin - no yee haa....that's a guilty person. If you,ve cheated you cant celebrate.

Also note how no-one comes over to congratulate him....it takes quite some time for Kerrison to come over - and then he kneels at a distance from him...odd....not normal.

I think Froome is doping on his own programme...the guilt is being outweighed by the FAME and MONEY. He has a huge ego.

 

[Ferminal]

It was entirely consistant with a doping rider who's raced too much that year. What clean 2 gt attempts are you comparing it with ?

Sastre 2006/2008 I guess.

 

[Pentacycle]

True - Froome is the British Contador...if we could all speak Spanish we would be on the Spanish cycling forums in the Clinic

But FROOME - He has the demeanour of a very guilty man...watch the bit when he has sat down after the prologue and his soigneur is there - the soigneur shakes his head and shuts his eyes gesturing 'wow, just wow'.

Even the soigneur cannot believe what he has just seen. Froome then asks if he won...yeh right Chris like you don't know you just blasted everyone out the park....he asks again 'did I get it'.

Theres no wild celebration like we saw Dan Martin - no yee haa....that's a guilty person. If you,ve cheated you cant celebrate.

Also note how no-one comes over to congratulate him....it takes quite some time for Kerrison to come over - and then he kneels at a distance from him...odd....not normal.

I think Froome is doping on his own programme...the guilt is being outweighed by the FAME and MONEY. He has a huge ego.

This prologue is just a step in taking the overall, that's the main target this week. And perhaps he was pretty tired, in such a way he couldn't cheer or anything right after the line. You're pretty much a hater, just like La Flo, please elaborate your viewpoint with some reasoning.

 

[JimmyFingers]

He looked absolutely rinsed at the end of that race too, like he had really put everything out there. Just sayin'

 

[SundayRider]

True - Froome is the British Contador...if we could all speak Spanish we would be on the Spanish cycling forums in the Clinic

But FROOME - He has the demeanour of a very guilty man...watch the bit when he has sat down after the prologue and his soigneur is there - the soigneur shakes his head and shuts his eyes gesturing 'wow, just wow'.

Even the soigneur cannot believe what he has just seen. Froome then asks if he won...yeh right Chris like you don't know you just blasted everyone out the park....he asks again 'did I get it'.

Theres no wild celebration like we saw Dan Martin - no yee haa....that's a guilty person. If you,ve cheated you cant celebrate.

Also note how no-one comes over to congratulate him....it takes quite some time for Kerrison to come over - and then he kneels at a distance from him...odd....not normal.

I think Froome is doping on his own programme...the guilt is being outweighed by the FAME and MONEY. He has a huge ego.

I agree with this. If you read Tylers book he talks of the 'dopers demeanor' after they have won a race.

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

True - Froome is the British Contador...if we could all speak Spanish we would be on the Spanish cycling forums in the Clinic

But FROOME - He has the demeanour of a very guilty man...watch the bit when he has sat down after the prologue and his soigneur is there - the soigneur shakes his head and shuts his eyes gesturing 'wow, just wow'.

Even the soigneur cannot believe what he has just seen. Froome then asks if he won...yeh right Chris like you don't know you just blasted everyone out the park....he asks again 'did I get it'.

Theres no wild celebration like we saw Dan Martin - no yee haa....that's a guilty person. If you,ve cheated you cant celebrate.

Also note how no-one comes over to congratulate him....it takes quite some time for Kerrison to come over - and then he kneels at a distance from him...odd....not normal.

I think Froome is doping on his own programme...the guilt is being outweighed by the FAME and MONEY. He has a huge ego.

Do you really believe that a rider would celebrate winning a prologue in the same way as a rider who has just won a monument? That said, I fully agree that Froome is doping, whether or not it's on his own programme I have no idea.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Theres no wild celebration like we saw Dan Martin - no yee haa....that's a guilty person. If you,ve cheated you cant celebrate.

So if you have a wild celebration you are clean? I'll look out for that.

Clearly he was clean on La Planche des Belles Filles.

Or was that not wild enough?

On a scale of 1(Not wild) to 10(Christopher McCandless wild) what do you need to score to be clean?

 

[thehog]

True - Froome is the British Contador...if we could all speak Spanish we would be on the Spanish cycling forums in the Clinic

But FROOME - He has the demeanour of a very guilty man...watch the bit when he has sat down after the prologue and his soigneur is there - the soigneur shakes his head and shuts his eyes gesturing 'wow, just wow'.

Even the soigneur cannot believe what he has just seen. Froome then asks if he won...yeh right Chris like you don't know you just blasted everyone out the park....he asks again 'did I get it'.

Theres no wild celebration like we saw Dan Martin - no yee haa....that's a guilty person. If you,ve cheated you cant celebrate.

Also note how no-one comes over to congratulate him....it takes quite some time for Kerrison to come over - and then he kneels at a distance from him...odd....not normal.

I think Froome is doping on his own programme...the guilt is being outweighed by the FAME and MONEY. He has a huge ego.

Very true. Template of a doper.

He may rue beating up on Ag2r riders at CI.

This is the biggest heist in cycling since USPS.

Daylight robbery.

 

[Ferminal]

So if you have a wild celebration you are clean? I'll look out for that.

Clearly he was clean on La Planche des Belles Filles.

Or was that not wild enough?

On a scale of 1(Not wild) to 10(Christopher McCandless wild) what do you need to score to be clean?

You're forgetting the legendary...

Maybe single fist pump is not so wild.