Sky/Froome Talk Only (No Way Sky Are Cleans?)

[Mellow Velo]

The trouble with you (Dear Wiggo has the same problem) is that when someone says something you pretend they said something else if it doesn't suit your argument.

That's the dynamic duo's MO.
Hog obfuscating nicely with the 10 minutes back in Romandie, line.
This sort of takes his crayon away for his latest join the dots exercise.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/froome-still-battling-parasitic-infection
Half of one race before the Swiss stager.

 

[Froome19]

Sure. That's cool. I'm down with that.

But if you're going to present 1 stage win in a provincial Italian race as some form of indicator of a future Tour winner then your dots are stretched thin.

Firstly well done for actually replying with a proper point and form of argument. It would be much easier to argue with you if you could only cut out the drivel in the middle such as raising irrelevant points about certain riders winning races who have taken drugs.

I am doing no such thing. Rather I am highlighting the fact that Froome was talented and did not come from "nowhere". Indeed he did not post the results that would prove that he is a future Tour contender, but that does not disqualify him from being a future Tour contender.

This is not a "join the dots" exercise to find out whether Froome could have won the Tour clean. This is just proving that he had talent it was just obscured.

With your logic you'd have to ask out of all the young "clean" stage winners since 1997 from the Giro delle Region became Grand Tour contenders?

Answers on the back of a postage stamp.

No I would not as the doped up ones on the podium were nevertheless more talented than the clean ones.

 

[BroDeal]

First race in Europe:

1st in Giro delle Regioni, Stage 5 : Chianciano Terme - Montepulciano
2nd Giro delle Regioni, Stage 2 : Citta' Sant'Angelo - Citta' Sant'Angelo
He would have won the overall if not for a series of crashes.

Then his subsequent results at Barloworld in 08 were very impressive for a first year neo-pro from Africa.

Barloworld? LOL.

Before winning the Tour at T-Mobile, Bjarne Riis' showed what potential he had at Gewiss-Ballan.

 

[serfla]

That bilharzia thing casts some doubt on Froome.
Intriguing disease in the era of blood doping.

 

[thehog]

Firstly well done for actually replying with a proper point and form of argument. It would be much easier to argue with you if you could only cut out the drivel in the middle such as raising irrelevant points about certain riders winning races who have taken drugs.

I am doing no such thing. Rather I am highlighting the fact that Froome was talented and did not come from "nowhere". Indeed he did not post the results that would prove that he is a future Tour contender, but that does not disqualify him from being a future Tour contender.

This is not a "join the dots" exercise to find out whether Froome could have won the Tour clean. This is just proving that he had talent it was just obscured.


No I would not as the doped up ones on the podium were nevertheless more talented than the clean ones.

You do realise that the Giro delle Region is an U23 race don't you?

He won one stage in an U23 provincial race and you hail it as the resurrection of Christ!

It's not like he was mixing it up with seasoned Pro's.

All you've done is google "Froome the early years" found a race he won and then said "look there you go! Future Tour winner on a platter".

You've not thought about this at all. You just found some random points to fill on your already dertermined result.

 

[Froome19]

Even Froome needs some race days to warm up. He suddenly was over his Bilharzia in time to race well at a key warm-up race in order to be in top form at the Tour.

It doesn't change the fact that until then he had a grand total of 5 CQ points for the year - for the amazing result of not climbing off and getting into the team car in Romandie.

As I said, I believe the bilharzia existed, and potentially still exists. I also don't believe that said disease is so convenient that it can be cured specifically for a major race when one's contract is up, then strike again immediately for several months, only to clear up a month or two before another major race.

Indeed I would say that Froome has been quite lucky, but it must be remembered that we say this when looking back but Froome may consider himself unlucky that he was afflicted by the disease still by the 2011 Giro or 2011 Tour even..

Just to point out that it is not the fact that it has been "magically" been cured in time for these races. The curing is something which can be carried out at anytime and the medication seems to have assured effects. Rather it is the fact that it was detected in time for it to be cured in time for Froome to be capable of performing as his best at these two races.

Originally Froome claimed that he had caught it in the 2010-11 offseason, but this has been pushed back further and further to explain more and more of his down period. I understand that the nature of the disease makes this not just plausible but likely, but I still see it as strange that a guy who has shown enough promise to be a decent top level pro, but nothing more, is suddenly a superstar who can drop anybody at will - but only at selected times of the year.

AFAIK Froome has claimed that he is not exactly sure when he caught it. It was found in 2010 off season but he certainly has not said that that was when it was contracted as far as I have read. It could have been in his system for any. I do not believe that one can truly find out for sure when they have contracted it. Indeed he states that he is unsure when or where he got it:

“Either in Kenya or South Africa, I got a water parasite, which is really difficult to get rid of.

The problem is, taking developmental races and things like that into account, you could make a case for almost any racer having the potential to win GTs. Arkaitz Durán, for example, had a great record as a junior. Or how about Kai Reus or Remmert Wielinga?

Agreed and the point really is merely that he had potential unlike people seem to claim.

The problem is how hard it is to un-see everything we say from 2009 to August 2011. His coming out party was so spectacular and so strong. If he'd had a few results to point to, or if he'd had a great Vuelta then collapsed in the final week and finished at the lower end of the top 10, people would probably buy it a lot easier than how he was the strongest guy over several mountains despite working them as a domestique, how he suddenly could out-TT Cancellara, and so forth and so on. Those performances that were now being pointed to as evidence he had GT winning potential saw him finishing behind the likes of Fabio Taborre. Taborre is a talented rider, but if he suddenly starts treating guys like Nibali like jokes in the Giro, you bet I'm calling foul.

True, but we do not know how his development went and his results for example in his first Tour are comparable with other GT riders who have performed at that level in their first season as a pro. What is vital here is the fact that he came from Africa and therefore he is totally different kettle of fish to the standard European racer because his development would have been managed much differently. As I wrote in the VR post he was labelled as extremely talented but he was limited by his lack of technique and the fact that he did not know how to ride a bike in the peloton all that well. Just think an extreme version of Machado and you may get an idea. He was not exposed to the training and other factors which other Pros may have been exposed to and this is stated explicity by his coach at the WCC

He's not a technical rider yet. He fell four time during the race. Two of his falls came in the third stage, costing him 1:20. When you see that in the final ranking he is only 1:25 behind the winner it isn't difficult to do the maths."

For me this explains his lack of visible success at Barloworld, though he did to an extent impress in terms of his Tour ride, but I agree that it was not sufficient for a rider of his abilities. It seems like Froome was disappointing which seems to be a common occurence for many talented riders.

But even after accepting his breakthrough, the way he could then contract the same illness that happens to just clear up in time for a GT for the second time in a year after sucking all season until then... it's just too convenient for my liking. Put a Spanish or Italian flag next to his name and he wouldn't be getting the treatment he's getting... everybody would be calling him out.

He's a British Santiago Pérez.

On a very simplistic level: Once it is in the bloods the parasites will never go away. They will always be there and will be continually coming back and effecting the person. Many people do not actually realise it and indeed Froome did not until he was tested by the UCI.

And finally lets get this clear. He was tested in March and then he was found to still have the parasite active within him. He started the treatment after the Criterium International. He was effected by the parasite prior to this and indeed most likely for close to the whole season up till then it just was not evident. Whilst taking the medication Froome could not train whatsover and it is rather rough and seems to purge the body completely in order to affect the parasites.

 

[Froome19]

That bilharzia thing casts some doubt on Froome.
Intriguing disease in the era of blood doping.

It surely could not have been faked imo.
It was found in fact when they were testing his blood..

So how is it suspicious?

 

[Avoriaz]

Ever heard of Rob Jebb?

Er, no. Sorry.

 

[thehog]

That's the dynamic duo's MO.
Hog obfuscating nicely with the 10 minutes back in Romandie, line.
This sort of takes his crayon away for his latest join the dots exercise.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/froome-still-battling-parasitic-infection
Half of one race before the Swiss stager.

Thank-you for proving the point. The article is excellent. The entire season he has either been off the bike with his blood diesese, chest infections and crashes.

Then miraculously by July he's not just in better form but in world beating form.

If Contador had the same lead up to the Tour he wouldn't win.

Beggars belief that you think hitting world beating time trialing and climbing form is a flick of a switch in July.

Regardless of his talent his entire season was bent of shape. But suddenly come July he can out TT Cancellera and out climb everyone including Wiggins.

Not buying it. Sorry.

 

[serfla]

It surely could not have been faked imo.
It was found in fact when they were testing his blood..

So how is it suspicious?

It may be the way to legalize one's blood doping... To get prescriptions for medicines which could be abused. Blood boosters, for example.

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

Thank-you for proving the point. The article is excellent. The entire season he has either been off the bike with his blood diesese, chest infections and crashes.

Then miraculously by July he's not just in better form but in world beating form.

If Contador had the same lead up to the Tour he wouldn't win.

Beggars belief that you think hitting world beating time trialing and climbing form is a flick of a switch in July.

Regardless of his talent his entire season was bent of shape. But suddenly come July he can out TT Cancellera and out climb everyone including Wiggins.

Not buying it. Sorry.

Would you agree then that the consistent form shown by Wiggins throughout the year is a sign that he is clean?

 

[will10]

That bilharzia thing casts some doubt on Froome.
Intriguing disease in the era of blood doping.

His passport would make mighty interesting reading. Surely his retics would be massively up and down, off the scale?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Would you agree then that the consistent form shown by Wiggins throughout the year is a sign that he is clean?

I see people's ability to hold form as being like a bell curve. Most people will fall in the middle, and being too far to either side is a reason for suspicion.

Something like the Giro in 2010 is a good illustration to me of what is a plausible peak period. Cadel Evans came to that race already in top form, because he'd started his season motivated and in form for his home race in January, then had to shoulder most of the responsibility for BMC's classics season. As a result he made a number of GC gains in the first week, but by the time we got to week 3, his form was starting to desert him as riders such as Basso, who had not had such a heavy early-season schedule, had more left in the tank. But that lack of race days in comparison meant that it took Basso until a few days into the Giro to hit peak form, meaning Evans could make gains in that first week when he had better form.

For me, if your form is too continuous, and you are on top form for several months, then that is suspicious, because you are too high on the bell curve - very few people can maintain a high level for six months. But also, if your form is intense, but too evanescent, like Froome, where you hit a crazy high level with little or no buildup, that is suspicious too, because you are too low on the bell curve, as those occasional super-peaks are pretty unusual. You can have people who have specific peaks, or people who are consistent for several months, without being so suspicious, but with the Sky duo, it's a bit too much; Wiggins' level was so high as to be pretty much undefeatable for six months, while Froome was on such a down-low before emerging at his superpeak, that it was pretty tough to swallow.

 

[thehog]

Would you agree then that the consistent form shown by Wiggins throughout the year is a sign that he is clean?

You raise an interesting point.

Yes I do. Wiggins consistency shows some positive signs of cleanness.

But then you throw in Froome and it all goes "whack".

Wiggins 1-2 in the TT with their extreme weight loss and climbing like US Postal was just all a little sickening.

Froome 2nd to Wiggins? Beating Martin and Cancellera? You're kidding me. Especially when half the season he was out with gangrene, crashes and chest infections. You just can't get to that level so quickly no matter who you are.

Take Froome out of Sky and things more look more normal not normal.

Froome just makes them all look like Aliens, Porte included.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Just a word upon the Giro delle Regioni.
It is an U23 race.
It isn't a "provincial" race, in any sense.
It is considered to be second only to the Giro Dilettante.
It is shown on national tv. (Rai Sport)

The 2006 edition results are..........interesting:
http://06.live-radsport.ch/details_2132/Giro_delle_Regioni_U23.html

 

[thehog]

Just a word upon the Giro delle Regioni.
It is an U23 race.
It isn't a "provincial" race, in any sense.
It is considered to be second only to the Giro Dilettante.
It is shown on national tv. (Rai Sport)

The 2006 edition results are..........interesting:
http://06.live-radsport.ch/details_2132/Giro_delle_Regioni_U23.html

Italian Sportives are shown on TV.

It's provincial. Sorry.

Or does it start in Milan?

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

You raise an interesting point.

Yes I do. Wiggins consistency shows some positive signs of cleanness.

But then you throw in Froome and it all goes "whack".

Wiggins 1-2 in the TT with their extreme weight loss and climbing like US Postal was just all a little sickening.

Froome 2nd to Wiggins? Beating Martin and Cancellera? You're kidding me. Especially when half the season he was out with gangrene, crashes and chest infections. You just can't get to that level so quickly no matter who you are.

Take Froome out of Sky and things more look more normal not normal.

Froome just makes them all look like Aliens, Porte included.

Froome was out half the season? There was less than a month between the Criterium International and his return in Romandie, more than two months after that for him to get up to the level he showed in the Tour, hardly what any reasonable person would call quickly.

He beat Cancellara by a bigger margin in the 2011 Vuelta time trial so it was hardly a shock. I'm struggling to see what Tony Martin has to do with anything, you talk as if he was performing close to his best which anyone can tell you is just nonsense.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Italian Sportives are shown on TV.

It's provincial. Sorry.

Or does it start in Milan?

I repeat, it is second only in stature to the baby Giro.

Just from the opening 2006 stage:
1 Matthew Goss (Aus) Australia 2.37.50
2 Oscar Gatto (Ita) Italy
3 Anders Lund (Den) Denmark
4 Dymytriy Grabovskiy (Ukr) Ukraine
5 Greg Van Avermaet (Bel) Belgium
6 Andre Steensen (Den) Denmark
7 Francesco Gavazzi (Ita) Italy

Time to either take that foot out of your mouth, or keep digging that hole.
Knowing how you so love to be contradicted, stop, if you strike oil.

 

[serfla]

His passport would make mighty interesting reading. Surely his retics would be massively up and down, off the scale?

Probably.
The disease could make his passport data completely unreliable and useless. And that's, besides prescriptions, another benefit from the parasite.

 

[thehog]

I repeat, it is second only in stature to the baby Giro.

Just from the opening 2006 stage:
1 Matthew Goss (Aus) Australia 2.37.50
2 Oscar Gatto (Ita) Italy
3 Anders Lund (Den) Denmark
4 Dymytriy Grabovskiy (Ukr) Ukraine
5 Greg Van Avermaet (Bel) Belgium
6 Andre Steensen (Den) Denmark
7 Francesco Gavazzi (Ita) Italy

Time to either take that foot out of your mouth, or keep digging that hole.
Knowing how you so love to be contradicted, stop, if you strike oil.

When Matthew Goss starts winning Tour TTs and MTFs I'll start listening.

It's sad that I'm the one that reveals the race is U23 and everyone wants to jump theHog!

Priceless.

You guys have never even heard of the race until you started googling.

You're going to tell me now you wait on the results of this race every year to check the up and coming champions?

Froome is an alien. Period. I'm sorry but he is.

Not normal. If he was racing in Lance's era Armstrong would have called the UCI on him!! Lol!

 

[Mellow Velo]

When Matthew Goss starts winning Tour TTs and MTFs I'll start listening.

It's sad that I'm the one that reveals the race is U23 and everyone wants to jump theHog!

Priceless.

You guys have never even heard of the race until you started googling.

You're going to tell me now you wait on the results of this race every year to check the up and coming champions?

Froome is an alien. Period. I'm sorry but he is.

Not normal. If he was racing in Lance's era Armstrong would have called the UCI on him!! Lol!

Sorry to put you right again, Hog.
I watch most of my cycling on Rai Sport.
I've seen quite a few editions of the race.
That's why I know Regioni is a real biggie in the U23 calendar, so I posted the info.
Nice to drop an actual fact into the debate, now and again.

The 2007 edition that Froome rode was won by a nobody called Riu Costa.
Tejay vG was there, too.

Still, I suppose this is your round about way admitting you were wrong.

 

[ferryman]

An on form Alberto Contador, but it is hard to judge such matters until we have seen GC riders all competing against each other in fair circumstances


I was not talking about this in context of the Vuelta, rather just when Froome was not so incapacitated by fatigue that he could actually compete to a degree.

Also I lumped in Purito because the poster I was replying to lumped in Purito with the other two and therefore I was challenging his post by claiming that it was possible to realise Froome's performance even against 3 dopers as he explicity states:




Care to explain why?

No need really, it's all in your reply.

 

[blackcat]

So why would they not give him a new contract after a long spell of illness during his first two years with Sky? Brailsford publically stated in 2009 he wanted a British winner of the Tour within 5 years. If he thought Froome could be a TdF winner, would he really not renew his contract? At a point where Bradley had bombed in the 2010 Tour and crashed out of the 2011 Tour, and it could be said Wiggins was running out of time to have a real run at the Tour. Would Brailsford really release a younger, "through the roof" Froome?

I'm not just stirring the pot here, I genuinely believe Sky were as taken aback as everyone else by his performance in 2011 Vuelta.

everything you said was valid.

I have no answer.

except a theory:
new strategy stage wins and greens with cav, and be doing everything to develop the talent of peter kennaugh. Or get jamie burrow back to his plateu de beilles record form.

last one is sarcasm

but the jettisoned young saffa grimpeur jl augustyn last year. he has loads of talent.

DB is getting major resources for Sky, he aint in the bizness of philanthropy for english cyclists. he needs to be a hard@rse for results, and not just doling out the GBP.

 

[blackcat]

First race in Europe:

1st in Giro delle Regioni, Stage 5 : Chianciano Terme - Montepulciano
2nd Giro delle Regioni, Stage 2 : Citta' Sant'Angelo - Citta' Sant'Angelo
He would have won the overall if not for a series of crashes.

Then his subsequent results at Barloworld in 08 were very impressive for a first year neo-pro from Africa.

Corti, Brailsford and Julich all claimed he was capable of attaining a very high level and he had immense potential. To come over from Africa and be capable of competing against the European riders is quite a feat in itself.

Check this post for specific details about Froome's early career
http://velorooms.com/the-doping-section/chris-froome/msg59781/#msg59781

I appreciate your posts Froome19, Iwas an initial promoter of chris froome too.

but we need to be honest. Froome, like the rest, is getting the medical preparation too. but he is competing on the same terms. I hope he wins the Tour this year. He should have won last year.

Meat 2012, and wins 2013.

big ups to Froome

 

[thehog]

Sorry to put you right again, Hog.
I watch most of my cycling on Rai Sport.
I've seen quite a few editions of the race.
That's why I know Regioni is a real biggie in the U23 calendar, so I posted the info.
Nice to drop an actual fact into the debate, now and again.

The 2007 edition that Froome rode was won by a nobody called Riu Costa.
Tejay vG was there, too.

Still, I suppose this is your round about way admitting you were wrong.

Anyone want to call tosspot on this guy?

He's a bit too eurocool for school.

I'm sorry. Please accept my apologies.

You're a europhile and I didn't know.

I won't argue with you again.

Non che credo.