So....cav outside time limit but race organisers let him stay in TDF

[Mambo95]

No hyperbole there.....

I think the real issue is that knowing that the 20% rule existed, the group made a deliberate choice to not try. For me, a professional should have more pride. I don't see the point of having a cutoff with such an easily exploited exception.

Do you really think they weren't trying?

 

[El Pistolero]

What contradiction? People who don't make the time cut need to leave. See no contradiction there. Of course if you're a Cav fanboy you don't care for this rule, but that's not my problem.

This rule is exploited because sprinter teams will always work together, so the group will always be too big to throw someone out with a big name. Poor Galimzyanov.

 

[ImmaculateKadence]

He won't lose the jersey, and 20 points is what the rules state he has to lose. If it were a case of 'people won't watch without these guys' then there has to be some kind of penalty for those that miss the time cut, otherwise it's a farce to even have a time cut in the first place.

With 45 available on the Champs-Elysées, 20 points is very lenient in comparison to the 25 points penalised to Greipel on Sierra Nevada and to Farrar on Zoncolán with regards to the battle for the points jersey. 20 points docked is absolutely the right decision, because that's the rule, and it's a rule that applies everywhere - the riders outside the time limit will be docked the same number of points as are available for the stage victory.

If Cav loses the green jersey because of this, then he should have raced up Galibier a couple of minutes faster, then he wouldn't have been docked. C'est la vie. This isn't a judgment call like the irregular sprint penalty in 2009, this is a fixed, permanent rule.

True. Thanks for the explanation. That sprint penalty you mentioned is exactly what I had in mind with my response, so I admit it was clouded by a shroud of frustration. I hate to see someone lose based on judgement calls. All I was thinking was SSDD

 

[Verzino]

So the assumption is that the sprinters will be the ones in the group missing the time cut. That is presumably why the penalty is points from the Green Jersey competition. But then the rules are that the group has to be 20% of the race or more. Considering there aren't more than five or six guys competing for the Green Jersey the penalty doesn't seem to fit. What about a rider who has no points but who will drag his leader up Alp D'Huez today? What is his penalty?

 

[Aleajactaest]

Do you really think they weren't trying?

If I were honest, yes. They're not stupid, they knew the rule. Why work any harder than you need to?

 

[JohnNordin]

fairly obvious, he should be in.

The rules clearly state that if 20% of the riders are outside the limit the jury can let them stay in the race but they suffer a deduction of points equivalent to that won by the stage winner (20 in this case).

The rules are clear, its within the rules. I dont see the issue.

Yea, I was going to point that out. The rules, as I read them, allow the stewards to make exceptions for "disadvantaged" riders. I don't know if they've consistently applied the rules or not, but there should be time limits. I don't want some sprinter finishing 10 hours later. And the time they get penalized is not a penalty, because they don't care about time.

 

[Mambo95]

If I were honest, yes. They're not stupid, they knew the rule. Why work any harder than you need to?

The you haven't got a clue what you're talking about.

Here's not trying. Flecha's data for today. Average 274 watts for over 6.5 hours.

http://ar.gy/Utv

https://www.trainingpeaks.com/sw/57ZJX4ZMZ4CSI5RWOZ3ANR5OYI

 

[2wheels]

The you haven't got a clue what you're talking about.

Here's not trying. Flecha's data for today. Average 274 watts for over 6.5 hours.

http://ar.gy/Utv

https://www.trainingpeaks.com/sw/57ZJX4ZMZ4CSI5RWOZ3ANR5OYI

Thank you for the links to some actual objective data-- interesting stuff on this website. But there was also the following observation from their energy guru: "The Izoard and the Galiber were much more casual for Flecha as he rode at his endurance and tempo pace up each climb and saving energy for the rest of stages."
Which is sort of what we're suggesting was the case. And again, not saying it's a crime or anything; it's just racing smart within the rules.

 

[movingtarget]

Trouble is it's grossly unfair to riders that were eliminated earlier in the race that might have had falls or been sick or just had bad days and finished on their own. It's not a rule I like. It should not matter, how many riders finish outside the time limit. Make the same rule for everyone and increase the time limit a little. I think that would be fairer.

 

[spanky wanderlust]

they can't boot cav.

htc has put in a gutsy performance in this tour and with a solid defense tomorrow they can shore up a top 25 position in the team competition.

 

[jobiwan]

they can't boot cav.

htc has put in a gutsy performance in this tour and with a solid defense tomorrow they can shore up a top 25 position in the team competition.

They might finish above Geox!

 

[Mambo95]

Thank you for the links to some actual objective data-- interesting stuff on this website. But there was also the following observation from their energy guru: "The Izoard and the Galiber were much more casual for Flecha as he rode at his endurance and tempo pace up each climb and saving energy for the rest of stages."
Which is sort of what we're suggesting was the case. And again, not saying it's a crime or anything; it's just racing smart within the rules.

The bit you quoted is just their interpretation. It's not factual. Spending 20 minutes at 387 watts earlier in the stage will have taken its toll.

To listen to some of the armchair experts on here, they were ambling along like an elderly couple on a Sunday ride to the local tea shop. They're not, they're busting their guts to try to get near to the limit. It's not easy.

How much energy do you think they saved by doing the course in 6.42 instead of 6.40? One guy who has been saving energy on most stages is Andy Schleck, while all these riders do all the work. But two minutes and they're all lazy lightweights. Some people really have absolutely no idea.

 

[craig1985]

That's a good question actually. Why have a time limit at all?

Logistics would be one as you can probably imagine it costs a lot to hold a stage and they have a town shut down (or the main part they race through) so the organizers have to have the roads open for public use an hour after the race has gone through.

20 points is the equivalent of about 7th in a bunch sprint. Not much of a punishment for a sprinter who, on form, will win about 80% of the sprints he contests. I haven't heard Rojas whining about today's judgment anyway.

It's the same as when Renshaw was thrown out last year. They couldn't put him to the back of the bunch, the standard penalty for irregular sprinting, because he's a leadout man, his sprinter won the stage, why should he care? It would be no penalty at all.

20 points is the same as an intermediate sprint. In the Giro and Vuelta this rule has been applied, but has penalised the riders in question the same amount of points as they can win in any stage.

You could hit them financially and a strong warning. IMO Julian Dean should have got the same punishment as Renshaw.

If I were honest, yes. They're not stupid, they knew the rule. Why work any harder than you need to?

I doubt they were riding along and having a cup of coffee. It's the right decision for mine, if a rider got dropped and came in 30 seconds after the gruppetto then fair enough to boot him out. From what Danilo Hondo had to say, they certainly weren't mucking about.

And this bit: The race jury did, however, deduct 20 points from the riders in the group, dealing a blow to the green jersey hopes of Cavendish, Gilbert and Hushovd.

So all the riders got the same penalty.

And this:

92 Anthony Roux (Fra) FDJ
93 Laurent Mangel (Fra) Saur - Sojasun
94 Ben Swift (GBr) Sky Procycling
95 Lars Ytting Bak (Den) HTC-Highroad
96 Sylvain Chavanel (Fra) Quickstep Cycling Team -1
97 Maciej Paterski (Pol) Liquigas-Cannondale -3
98 David Millar (GBr) Team Garmin-Cervelo -3
99 Hubert Dupont (Fra) AG2R La Mondiale -4
100 Linus Gerdemann (Ger) Leopard Trek -4
101 Sébastien Minard (Fra) AG2R La Mondiale -4
102 Perrig Quemeneur (Fra) Team Europcar -5
103 Björn Leukemans (Bel) Vacansoleil-DCM Pro Cycling Team -6
104 Haimar Zubeldia Agirre (Spa) Team RadioShack -7
105 Tejay Van Garderen (USA) HTC-Highroad -7
106 Adriano Malori (Ita) Lampre - ISD -7
107 Juan Antonio Flecha Giannoni (Spa) Sky Procycling -7
108 Dmitriy Muravyev (Kaz) Team RadioShack -8
109 Romain Zingle (Bel) Cofidis, Le Credit En Ligne -9
110 Jakob Fuglsang (Den) Leopard Trek -10
111 Jonathan Hivert (Fra) Saur - Sojasun -10
112 Tomas Vaitkus (Ltu) Pro Team Astana -10
113 Bernhard Eisel (Aut) HTC-Highroad -10
114 Addy Engels (Ned) Quickstep Cycling Team -11
115 Cyril Gautier (Fra) Team Europcar -12
116 Grega Bole (Slo) Lampre - ISD -12
117 Danilo Hondo (Ger) Lampre - ISD -13
118 Kristijan Koren (Slo) Liquigas-Cannondale -16
119 Manuel Quinziato (Ita) BMC Racing Team -17
120 Maciej Bodnar (Pol) Liquigas-Cannondale -17
121 Marcus Burghardt (Ger) BMC Racing Team -17
122 Paolo Longo Borghini (Ita) Liquigas-Cannondale -18
123 Andrey Amador Bakkazakova (CRc) Movistar Team -18
124 Jurgen Roelandts (Bel) Omega Pharma-Lotto -19
125 Fabian Cancellara (Swi) Leopard Trek -19
126 Alessandro Vanotti (Ita) Liquigas-Cannondale -19
127 Fabio Sabatini (Ita) Liquigas-Cannondale -19
128 Grischa Niermann (Ger) Rabobank Cycling Team -20
129 Christian Knees (Ger) Sky Procycling -20
130 Richie Porte (Aus) Saxo Bank Sungard -20
131 Nicki Sörensen (Den) Saxo Bank Sungard -20
132 Simon Gerrans (Aus) Sky Procycling -20
133 Sebastian Lang (Ger) Omega Pharma-Lotto -20
134 Benjamin Noval Gonzalez (Spa) Saxo Bank Sungard -20
135 Matteo Tosatto (Ita) Saxo Bank Sungard -20
136 Brian Vandborg (Den) Saxo Bank Sungard -20
137 Mickaël Buffaz (Fra) Cofidis, Le Credit En Ligne -20
138 Jérémie Galland (Fra) Saur - Sojasun -20
139 Arnaud Coyot (Fra) Saur - Sojasun -20
140 Denys Kostyuk (Ukr) Lampre - ISD -20
141 Yohann Gene (Fra) Team Europcar -20
142 Vincent Jerome (Fra) Team Europcar -20
143 Danny Pate (USA) HTC-Highroad -20

So much fail in this thread.

 

[rata de sentina]

So much fail in this thread.

Yep, it's July.

 

[spalco]

Two interesting quotes from Hondo, one for the haters, one for everyone else:

"Well, it seems as though Cavendish rides faster on some climbs than the fastest climbers in front of the race. So I'm not sure..." Hondo said.

At the start of the epic stage to the Galibier, Lampre management had calculated that the time limit would be about 40 minutes for the team's sprinters. As it turned out, the time limit was significantly less generous, but Hondo was already concerned about a 40-minute cut-off.

"You have to try to remain in the group and ride a good rhythm at least during the first two climbs. On the descents, you need to risk everything to try to make up some time there. For us, it's a time trial the whole day," he said.

 

[Kender]

yeah that would work... NOT

have you bothered to see how many riders were in that group and who they are? the peloton will wait for them without hesitation. you just can't leave out that many domestiques and have a fair race. wake up people, cycling is a team sport.

No, you're missing the point. You wouldn't have 88-man groups missing the cut to begin with, if there were actual time penalties assessed for it. I've got nothing against Cav, nor do I want to "throw any riders under the bus." I just don't believe that all 88 riders were physically unable to make the cut today. Some took advantage of the rules to catch a bit of a break-- more power to them.

it seems you're the one that's missed the point of your own susgestion about making the riders starting behind the peloton.

if you have a group starting 2 minutes behind (as you originally stated since that's the time outside the cut they were) it won't matter who is in the group. the peloton will wait for them. because the group will at the very least contain a bunch of domestiques that will be needed later in the stage.

 

[AussieGoddess]

20 points, because that's what the rule is, and it is therefore the right decision.

What we're debating is whether that rule should be changed, and if so what to, to actually punish riders for missing time cuts, rather than whether or not it was the right decision, because it was, it's as simple as that.

Totally agree.

89 riders were outside the time limit but only Cavendish and Gilbert have received any sort of meaningful punishment at all.

Let's face it - 89 riders outside the time limit suggests they got the time limit wrong - simple as that. As for posters suggesting they took it easy - as the rule stands if they'd finished 55 minutes down they'd all still be in the race tomorrow.

I think your 2 points contradict each other a bit. If only Cav and Phil were going to be punished .... did the other 87 riders get it wrong? They saved a fair amount of energy than what they would have had to expend in order to get inside the time limit .... for no penalty.

I agree that the penalties need to be more. If you finish outside the time limit, you cannot win a jersey. (obviously talking about future years here, this year, they knew the rules and rode to them)

Interesting that Omega Pharma Lotto were the ones earlier talking about eliminating Cav ... and Gilbert comes in outside the limit too

 

[patterson_hood]

20 points is the equivalent of about 7th in a bunch sprint. Not much of a punishment for a sprinter who, on form, will win about 80% of the sprints he contests. I haven't heard Rojas whining about today's judgment anyway.

It's the same as when Renshaw was thrown out last year. They couldn't put him to the back of the bunch, the standard penalty for irregular sprinting, because he's a leadout man, his sprinter won the stage, why should he care? It would be no penalty at all.

20 points is the same as an intermediate sprint. In the Giro and Vuelta this rule has been applied, but has penalised the riders in question the same amount of points as they can win in any stage.

So what you're suggesting is a rule specifically for Cav because he is that much better than everyone else in the sprint? Now that is ridiculous. He was given the same punishment as everyone else in that group and that's the way it should be.

The time cut seems to work fine and the rules have been applied to the letter. It's not like Rojas worked really hard to finish in the points and Cav slacked off, they both worked hard and it seems Rojas' group got the calculation right.

The calculation might be simple but planning your ride isn't. With three HC climbs it will have been almost impossible for any DS to work out the time cut until AS had finished and by that point it's going to be pretty hard for the grupetto to raise their pace that late in the day. I think to suggest they were slacking off (not the post I've quoted) is extremely insulting to the riders.

And the Green jersey is the points jersey and always has been. They all knew the rules before the race. Personally I think points should be awarded to the top 20 finishers only with no intermediatre sprint if it is truly to be for the most consistently high finisher, but I'm pretty sure Cav would have walked that for the past 4 years.

Also, I personally think the sprinters and their domestiques are the hardest working guys in the peleton. On flat stages climbers and GC guys get a rest while the sprint teams have to do all the work, on intermediate days the sprint teams still have to work hard in case a rival is able to get a jump on them and on mountain days they have to work extremely hard just to make the time cut. Apart from the ITT I can't acutally see a day where they get any rest.

 

[Waterloo Sunrise]

He won't lose the jersey, and 20 points is what the rules state he has to lose. If it were a case of 'people won't watch without these guys' then there has to be some kind of penalty for those that miss the time cut, otherwise it's a farce to even have a time cut in the first place.

With 45 available on the Champs-Elysées, 20 points is very lenient in comparison to the 25 points penalised to Greipel on Sierra Nevada and to Farrar on Zoncolán with regards to the battle for the points jersey. 20 points docked is absolutely the right decision, because that's the rule, and it's a rule that applies everywhere - the riders outside the time limit will be docked the same number of points as are available for the stage victory.

If Cav loses the green jersey because of this, then he should have raced up Galibier a couple of minutes faster, then he wouldn't have been docked. C'est la vie. This isn't a judgment call like the irregular sprint penalty in 2009, this is a fixed, permanent rule.

Sophist.

Rojas, to all intents and purposes, was given the stage win yesterday.

Cav was the only man in the entire gruppeto punished. (Again, to all intents and purposes, before some braindead cretin tries to 'correct' me).

 

[rxgqgxnyfz]

more than half of peloton didn't made the cut

cavendish was one of the 80 guys

 

[zigzag wanderer]

Totally agree.




I think your 2 points contradict each other a bit. If only Cav and Phil were going to be punished .... did the other 87 riders get it wrong? They saved a fair amount of energy than what they would have had to expend in order to get inside the time limit .... for no penalty.

I agree that the penalties need to be more. If you finish outside the time limit, you cannot win a jersey. (obviously talking about future years here, this year, they knew the rules and rode to them)

Interesting that Omega Pharma Lotto were the ones earlier talking about eliminating Cav ... and Gilbert comes in outside the limit too

I meant that ASO got the time limit wrong - more than half the race outside the limit suggests that strongly to me.

You say the penalties need to be more - but again excluding riders from jersey competitions is no punishment at all for 87 of the riders involved yesterday.

A more lenient time limit with elimination as the punishment if you miss it is the only workable solution I can see.

 

[personal]

This is wrong.

From now on, grupetto will form around Cavendish and he will feel less preasure to make it inside limit.

I understand that some flexibility is needed but this is wrong and unjust to riders who worked harder to make it only to later discover that they could have saved their legs little more.

You can extend the limit before but not after the race.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

Those advocating an absolutely strict application of the cut-off rule should consider how the last week of the 2006 tour would have looked with 5 riders.

There needs (in future) to be some real disincentive for a grupetto riding with obvious disdain for a time limit, that genuinely effects more than one or two riders (Cavendish and Gilbert in this instance), but that sanction should also be linked to how close to the cut-off they were. Yesterday there was clear evidence of a genuine effort having been made to hit that target.

I'm no great fan of Cavendish, but if he had finished just 90 seconds sooner, Rojas would have had to have finished 31:18 sooner (ie ahead of AS) to get the same points advantage over Cav on the day as he got.

 

[patterson_hood]

This is wrong.

From now on, grupetto will form around Cavendish and he will feel less preasure to make it inside limit.

I understand that some flexibility is needed but this is wrong and unjust to riders who worked harder to make it only to later discover that they could have saved their legs little more.

You can extend the limit before but not after the race.

You should probably read the rules, they have been followed.

As has been pointed out, Rojas finished approx 3:30 before Cav and has in effect been given the stage win in the points competition. I'm really struggling to see how this isn't fair.

And judging by the difference in climbing ability I'd say that Cav's main rival (as it seems that this is more a disscusion about the green jersey than anything else, which is in itself ridiculous) I'd say Cav probably had to work alot harder to come in in that group than Rojas had to work to come in in his.

 

[Hawkwood]

If I've done the maths correctly if AS had finished in a time just 3 mins 24 secs quicker the time limit would have gone to 10%, or about 36 mins 27 secs. So getting the maths right while sweating in the grupetto would have been no mean feat.