Spanish empire conquering world of sports - USA Today

[sniper]

Then again i see any famous person selling their popularity for an advert as selling out. The idea of telling people who respect you to buy something, because the company payed you money, just seems totaly wrong to me. Anathema. I have no idea what this word "contracorriente" which i keep hearing in spanish songs, means, but maybe this is it.

Oh and lets not forget that nike asked the chinese secret police to find a blogger who had suggested that nike had forced Liu Xiang to try the 110m hurdles at the olympics when he was injured.

You listen to Macaco by any chance?

 

[sniper]

Sporting wise, all of Nadals family was succesful. His mother played sport, his father did.

And Uncle Toni, the one you mention, who still coaches Nadal is the less famous and rich of Nadals uncles. Tonis brother Miguel was the Iniesta of the 90's - Barcelona and Spain key midfielder. His moment on the international stage wasnt quite as succesful as he missed the penalty which knocked Spain out of Euro 96.
So if it matters, you are right, Rafa is upper class.

Makes you wonder, what if Miguel and not Toni had got his hands on little rafa first. probably would have been a top quality footballer, but i think he is better built for tennis. But I got to hand it too him, he does have a lot of great atributes for tennis. Absolutely everything came together, family, money, hunger, exactly the correct physical specimen, height, power links to the right doctors, genes, and Nadal really does have the hunger for victory. kind of like Lance, though he behaves better when he loses.

True, Rafa is a one of a kind athlete.
And he has the luck to be in a game of sports where PED's are probably wide spread, but not considered as PED's by the masses and the media, really, i.e. hardly any serious testing, and no critical, mistrustful media chasing your back.

 

[The Hitch]

You listen to Macaco by any chance?

No I havent heard of a Macao, but I hear the word ALL the time, in about 10 different songs by different people, and recognise it every time because its starting to annoy me. According to the dictionary its "countercurrent". Wtf is that. Why would you use countercurrent in love songs . I figure it must have some deeper meaning.

 

[khardung la]

No I havent heard of a Macao, but I hear the word ALL the time, in about 10 different songs by different people, and recognise it every time because its starting to annoy me. According to the dictionary its "countercurrent". Wtf is that. Why would you use countercurrent in love songs . I figure it must have some deeper meaning.

In the context of a love song it would mean something like against the wish or the opinion of the others, the society, the family etc...

 

[sniper]

indeed, that's what it means, literally, but it has a positive connotation.
as far as I know, 'gente contracorriente' are people who go against the flow, i.e. alternative people, alternative in an anti-capitalist, leftish kind of way.
(I'm no native, so anybody correct me if I'm wrong)
Compare with the English word nice, which in Old English meant 'foolish'/'stupid', then gained the meaning of 'strange'/'extravagant', thenturning into 'elegant', ending up with today's meaning of 'pleasant', 'agreeable'.

 

[Señor_Contador]

What is really just mindblowingly demagogic is to describe a Nike commercial as the "average" opinion of the Spanish people.

When you make statements of such "caliber" you just out yourself and show us you're in a very dark place.

The commercial has no other intention but to stir up patriotic fervor in a country that has 20%+ unemployment.

Someone has to keep our hopes up.

The problem is that we're not dumb, and regardless of the successes in sports... either the Spanish government do something about the unemployment situation or there will be blood (no pun intended).

 

[khardung la]

What is really just mindblowingly demagogic is to describe a Nike commercial as the "average" opinion of the Spanish people.

When you make statements of such "caliber" you just out yourself and show us you're in a very dark place.

The commercial has no other intention but to stir up patriotic fervor in a country that has 20%+ unemployment.

Someone has to keep our hopes up.

The problem is that we're not dumb, and regardless of the successes in sports... either the Spanish government do something about the unemployment situation or there will be blood (no pun intended).

+1, perfectly put. And yes, there will be blood soon.

 

[hrotha]

Nike has always worked with some of the best advertising agencies around. They're obviously pretty confident this kind of message will be appealing to most of their target audience, which is largely made up of casual sports fans. For me there's little doubt that the average casual Spanish fan agrees with the campaign.

 

[sniper]

Reply to Senor Contador:

yeah, cool, you got me all wining and stuff, and in all honesty I do care more about Spanish unemployment rates than the average sucker out here on the internet.
but
the point is: the advert struck me in the first place cuz it says: "A LOS QUE DUDAN".
And even though Khardung La has already convinced me that it is not about doping (but about the financial crisis), you really can't blame me for having taken that title as a (indirect) reference "TO THOSE WHO DOUBT the authenticity of the Spanish sportive successes as a result of the recent doping scandals". Get my drift?

 

[roundabout]

Call me cynical, but turning sporting achievements into matters of national pride leads to a slippery slope of accepting doping on all levels.

 

[The Hitch]

Call me cynical, but turning sporting achievements into matters of national pride leads to a slippery slope of accepting doping on all levels.

Spain is doing more than that.

Its leading daily newspaper - EL Pais is calling 2011 - the year of July 11th.

Take a guess what happened on July 11th.

1521 was the year of May 25th
1789 was the year of July 14th
1918 was the year of November 11th
1945 was the year of May 5th
1969 was the year of July 20th
2001 Was the year of September 11th

And finaly we add to this list of historic achievments for mankind

2010 the year of July 11th.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Come on Hitch, you live in Britain. As far as I can tell, the English are still going on about winning the World Cup all the way back in 1966, and it's not like the French didn't make an egregiously big deal out of winning it in 1998 either.

 

[Francois the Postman]

Call me cynical, but turning sporting achievements into matters of national pride leads to a slippery slope of accepting doping on all levels.

As long as it substitutes war trenches for sports arenas, you couldn't have enough folk taking sports as the rallying flag, if you'd ask me. Just be grateful that we had ice hockey during the cold war. If the 1980s "miracle on ice" head to head were the most painful direct shots fired in anger, we weren't doing too bad, given the alternative.

Call me funny, but I actually think that strongly identifying with sport accomplishments of "your tribe" is just about the most healthy release valve there is for tribal tension. When the Dutch football team finally beat Germany en-route to the European Cup, more scars were healed that day than all the other efforts combined. After that, we didn't even mind Germany finally dared to wave its flag prouder too (quite rightly so).

And several "tribes" have shown over and over that they can be utterly graceful in defeat too.

I also think, in general, that tribes are a good thing, within reason. A common identity is essential human glue. If you can get yourself to think about the human tribe only, even better.

I want folk to celebrate their wins, especially if it means that much to them.

BTW, in sports, a cluster of good results is a far more likely occurrence than an even spread. With or without doping. Spain became a very different nation after Franco. Part of it is catching up to "expected levels", part of it is some superb schools of excellence, part of is doping no doubt, and quite possibly "official bodies willing to look the other way a bit". Which makes them pretty normal by my standards.

Now, which other "more sporting" nations can we name where it took external intervention by non-sport bodies (or insider whistle-blowers who knew damn well where the official route was gonna end up), before some pretty smelly national heroes were finally given a good scrubbing?

Here's the rock. Feel free to pick it up if you think your own sporting bodies were always super-keen to oust your rallying flags....

I'm Dutch, I can't.

 

[The Hitch]

As long as it substitutes war trenches for sports arenas, you couldn't have enough folk taking sports as the rallying flag, if you'd ask me. Just be grateful that we had ice hockey during the cold war. If the 1980s "miracle on ice" head to head were the most painful direct shots fired in anger, we weren't doing too bad, given the alternative.

Call me funny, but I actually think that strongly identifying with sport accomplishments of "your tribe" is just about the most healthy release valve there is for tribal tension. When the Dutch football team finally beat Germany en-route to the European Cup, more scars were healed that day than all the other efforts combined. After that, we didn't even mind Germany finally dared to wave its flag prouder too (quite rightly so).

And several "tribes" have shown over and over that they can be utterly graceful in defeat too.

I also think, in general, that tribes are a good thing, within reason. A common identity is essential human glue. If you can get yourself to think about the human tribe only, even better.

I want folk to celebrate their wins, especially if it means that much to them.

BTW, in sports, a cluster of good results is a far more likely occurrence than an even spread. With or without doping. Spain became a very different nation after Franco. Part of it is catching up to "expected levels", part of it is some superb schools of excellence, part of is doping no doubt, and quite possibly "official bodies willing to look the other way a bit". Which makes them pretty normal by my standards.

Now, which other "more sporting" nations can we name where it took external intervention by non-sport bodies (or insider whistle-blowers who knew damn well where the official route was gonna end up), before some pretty smelly national heroes were finally given a good scrubbing?

Here's the rock. Feel free to pick it up if you think your own sporting bodies were always super-keen to oust your rallying flags....

I'm Dutch, I can't.

Francois. If politicians want a war, they will get a war. Whether 2 countries have a football, rugby, hockey match or whatver makes absolutely no difference. Wars dont occur because politicians think "oh, we dont like those germans" and then calm down after a football match is played. Come on

More importantly for everytime somebody wins, somebody has to lose, and people DO NOT like to lose.

If anything sport causes problems. there is the football war between Honduras and El Salvador . Colombia comes immediately to mind. Its famous for tvs raining down from the streets when Colombia loses. In 94 Narcotraficantes kidnapped members of the Colombian national team and told the manager who to pick or they die. When Andres Escobar scored the most unfortunate of own goals, he would pay the ultimate price. Nevermind that the whole team actually visited Pablo Escobar at his home before the tournametn. Only 12 months ago the Togo team bus was shot at with some killed in Angola with demands that the tournament be held elsewhere.

Last year ****stani lawmakers cancelled a trip to India after no ****stani players were picked in some IPL cricket draft. This between 2 countries desperatly in need of improvement in relations, a lot of damage done because of some bs. Theres people dying in South Africa because money was diverted from healthcare to building stadiums and hotels.
Just over a year ago there was a lof of anti Algerian rhetoric from the Egyptian dictatorship and media as they lost to Algeria. This between 2 very close allies. Insiders said the tension felt as bad as during the 1967 war between the 2 countries.

Then theres hooliganism. British fans murdered in Turkey. Great violence in when some european and south american teams play. Violence between egypt and algeria.

I could go on with example after example after example, but ill leave it with this

"sport is an unfailing cause of ill-will.- George orwell.

 

[Francois the Postman]

Francois. If politicians want a war, they will get a war. Whether 2 countries have a football, rugby, hockey match or whatver makes absolutely no difference. Wars dont occur because politicians think "oh, we dont like those germans" and then calm down after a football match is played. Come on

More importantly for everytime somebody wins, somebody has to lose, and people DO NOT like to lose.

If anything sport causes problems. there is the football war between Honduras and El Salvador . Colombia comes immediately to mind. Its famous for tvs raining down from the streets when Colombia loses. In 94 Narcotraficantes kidnapped members of the Colombian national team and told the manager who to pick or they die. When Andres Escobar scored the most unfortunate of own goals, he would pay the ultimate price. Nevermind that the whole team actually visited Pablo Escobar at his home before the tournametn. Only 12 months ago the Togo team bus was shot at with some killed in Angola with demands that the tournament be held elsewhere.

Last year ****stani lawmakers cancelled a trip to India after no ****stani players were picked in some IPL cricket draft. This between 2 countries desperatly in need of improvement in relations, a lot of damage done because of some bs. Theres people dying in South Africa because money was diverted from healthcare to building stadiums and hotels.
Just over a year ago there was a lof of anti Algerian rhetoric from the Egyptian dictatorship and media as they lost to Algeria. This between 2 very close allies. Insiders said the tension felt as bad as during the 1967 war between the 2 countries.

Then theres hooliganism. British fans murdered in Turkey. Great violence in when some european and south american teams play. Violence between egypt and algeria.

I could go on with example after example after example, but ill leave it with this

"sport is an unfailing cause of ill-will.- George orwell.

Well, then mr George Orwell talks ****e.

None of those tensions are caused by sport alone. I proposed that sport more often than not is a release valve, a source of joy, and a community shaper, in a good way.

Sure, it doesn't bring world peace. But to say that sport unfailingly causes tension between people where there was no underlying rivalry or source of aggro already. Come on ;-)

You can bring up incidents and examples, but given how much sports there is, these anecdotes you propose only underpin that they are exceptional. We are tribal beings. "Sports" is the best way we have invented to "settle" rivalries.

 

[The Hitch]

Well, then mr George Orwell talks ****e.

None of those tensions are caused by sport alone. I proposed that sport more often than not is a release valve, a source of joy, and a community shaper, in a good way.

Sure, it doesn't bring world peace. But to say that sport unfailingly causes tension between people where there was no underlying rivalry or source of aggro already. Come on ;-)

You can bring up incidents and examples, but given how much sports there is, these anecdotes you propose only underpin that they are exceptional. We are tribal beings. "Sports" is the best way we have invented to "settle" rivalries.

But they dont settle anything. Ultimately real life is seperate from sport and 99.9999% of the world has to live in the real world. Including everyone that matters - politicians, media etc. Sport never solves any problems. It sure as hell is unlikely to ease tensions as somebody has to lose. But you suggested in your first post that its good to play things out in sporting arenas rather than trenches. Sport can never stop wars because it doesnt touch any of the problems that cause them. Famine, greed, economic problems, religion, historical claims etc thats what cause wars.

Maybe India should play ****stan over Kashmir, best of 3 Cricket match? Whoever wins gets it for good.

You think the loser would be gracious

But the point is, brief excitement among certain segments of the population over sport, doesnt change the fact that there are more important things in life, and when people switch of the tv, they still ultimately live in the real world, not the sport one. Their problems are economic, religious, political etc and sport will NEVER solve or even adress them.

 

[Granville57]

But they dont settle anything. Ultimately real life is seperate from sport and 99.9999% of the world has to live in the real world. Including everyone that matters - politicians, media etc. Sport never solves any problems. It sure as hell is unlikely to ease tensions as somebody has to lose. But you suggested in your first post that its good to play things out in sporting arenas rather than trenches. Sport can never stop wars because it doesnt touch any of the problems that cause them. Famine, greed, economic problems, religion, historical claims etc thats what cause wars.

Maybe India should play ****stan over Kashmir, best of 3 Cricket match? Whoever wins gets it for good.

You think the loser would be gracious

But the point is, brief excitement among certain segments of the population over sport, doesnt change the fact that there are more important things in life, and when people switch of the tv, they still ultimately live in the real world, not the sport one. Their problems are economic, religious, political etc and sport will NEVER solve or even adress them.

BUT...there are instances that should not be overlooked, such as this one from 1998. For many Americans, this was somewhat of a profound moment:

Iran recorded their first World Cup victory in the second game, beating the United States 2-1, with Estili and Mahdavikia scoring goals for Iran. The Iran vs USA World Cup match was preheated with much excitement because of each country's political stance after the Iranian revolution. However, in an act of defiance against all forms of hatred or politics in sports, both sides presented one another with gifts and flowers and took ceremonial pictures before the match kickoff. Following defeat with Iran the United States were eliminated from the World Cup.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_national_football_team

Did it create World Peace? Obviously, no. But it proves the greater point that politicians and religious leaders are more the cause of war (as opposed to any actual "differences" between the sides) when it comes to two cultures that wouldn't otherwise really know each other. For decades, Americans were conditioned to hate Iran (and its people) through the media and political proclamations—this had been heavily reinforced for many years, trust me (and sadly still is in some ways, but to a lesser degree). And yet, we have that moment in the picture. People are better, and have more in common with one another, than most of our "leaders" would like us to realize. Therefore, significant occurrences of unity, like the one above, serve as important remiders of just that.

That sense of "global unity" is brought out, in many ways, at every Olympic gathering. The Olympics appeal to our better selves in terms of interacting with one another—just ask the athletes. Are The Games flawed in many ways behind the scenes? Definitely. But, once again, I feel they serve as an important reminder of just how much we have in common with one another and how much we, as people, actually do like to interact with other cultures in a peaceful and respectful manner.

These small, little steps certainly can't hurt the effort for greater peace.

 

[khardung la]

I am sorry Hitch, but for me the Postman is the one raising senseful comments here.

Anyway, which violence have the celebrations of the WC won by Spain caused??? (since you are talking about sport and violence). Why it does disturb you so much that people get happy some days?? I can tell you that normal people do recognize current national problems at different levels, but at the same time can enjoy a sporting victory.

What I am saying is so obvious and normal that I am surprised that you insist in this point again and again in this thread. That is just my opinion as a Spaniard who enjoyed the victory in the WC, stands again doping, and is deeply worried about the socio-economic outcomes of the crisis and our politicians. These are different things, why messing them up all the time in this thread?

Your point is probably that politicians and cooperative newspapers do mess-up those 3 things, I assume. Agreed. Politicians are one thing, Spaniards other.


http://exposureroom.com/cyclingsa

 

[The Hitch]

BUT...there are instances that should not be overlooked, such as this one from 1998. For many Americans, this was somewhat of a profound moment:


Did it create World Peace? Obviously, no. But it proves the greater point that politicians and religious leaders are more the cause of war (as opposed to any actual "differences" between the sides) when it comes to two cultures that wouldn't otherwise really know each other. For decades, Americans were conditioned to hate Iran (and its people) through the media and political proclamations—this had been heavily reinforced for many years, trust me (and sadly still is in some ways, but to a lesser degree). And yet, we have that moment in the picture. People are better, and have more in common with one another, than most of our "leaders" would like us to realize. Therefore, significant occurrences of unity, like the one above, serve as important remiders of just that.

That sense of "global unity" is brought out, in many ways, at every Olympic gathering. The Olympics appeal to our better selves in terms of interacting with one another—just ask the athletes. Are The Games flawed in many ways behind the scenes? Definitely. But, once again, I feel they serve as an important reminder of just how much we have in common with one another and how much we, as people, actually do like to interact with other cultures in a peaceful and respectful manner.

These small, little steps certainly can't hurt the effort for greater peace.

I dont see what the USA vs Iran football match achieved. If americans really did hate Iranian people and think they were evil or something, then they are even more stupid than they are portrayed because i know that possibly a majoirity of Iranians, even though they are constantly bombarded with Anti western propaganda themselves, are very sympathetic to the US, and this has nothing to do with the football match.

And i dont buy the olympic spirit "it unites cultures" line. I dont think it does. In fact i remember the last olympics being held in a dictatorship and lots of protests regarding human rights abuses, and some boycotts and many locals forced to leave their homes to make way for developments for the olympics.

I recall in the last winter olympics Canada "owning the podium", not allowing foreign athletes to practise on the ski hills. They defended themselves by saying that they are not proud of their record of never having won an olympic gold on home soil, despite hosting 2 olympics. Many pointed out at the time that presumably they must then be proud of the fact that they are acting like a spoilt child in the way they are treating their guests.

Its really come to something when the number of olympic golds won is more important than being fair to your guests.

Call me a cynic but i really dont buy into anything the media does or says. I see every big company taking advantage of olympics and world cup always, just to make more money. Where is the money to RSA's poor or Chinas poor? Olympics have been boycotted en masse in the past and will again. People face eachother for victory. And people are at the end of the day divided into groups based on what piece of land they were born on. Not united but divided.

and yes you do get your Mandela presents the world cup, moments, or your equitorial guinea swimmer who cant swim doing a lap, and the video being circulated as quickly as possible around the world for maximum effect, but at the end of the day what do they achieve? EG is still one of the most closed and brutal states in the world, and the video was forgoten about a few weeks later, as was the swimmer. And no portrayal of South Africa can claim that a black south african presenting the world cup to a white south african provided anything more than a kodak moment, as South Africas problems and divisions continue as they always have.
They are after all routed in reality, in brutality, in wrongs, in imperialism, in racism, in economics and sport will never be able to adress these issues.

Never. Jamais. Nunca. Nie. Mai. Nigdy.

 

[The Hitch]

I am sorry Hitch, but for me the Postman is the one raising senseful comments here.

Anyway, which violence have the celebrations of the WC won by Spain caused??? (since you are talking about sport and violence). Why it does disturb you so much that people get happy some days?? I can tell you that normal people do recognize current national problems at different levels, but at the same time can enjoy a sporting victory.

What I am saying is so obvious and normal that I am surprised that you insist in this point again and again in this thread. That is just my opinion as a Spaniard who enjoyed the victory in the WC, stands again doping, and is deeply worried about the socio-economic outcomes of the crisis and our politicians. These are different things, why messing them up all the time in this thread?

Your point is probably that politicians and cooperative newspapers do mess-up those 3 things, I assume. Agreed. Politicians are one thing, Spaniards other.


http://exposureroom.com/cyclingsa

Firstly my responce to Francois had nothing to do with Spain, so you clearly misread it. I never said Sport always causes violence. I said it causes way more harm than it solves, and i backed it up with tons of examples where sport has killed people, created geopolitical problems and even started wars. I also pointed out that wars are not stopped or prevented by football because sport can not touch the reasons behind why wars are started. Maybe you could give me a rebuttal, rather than claim that i have lost.

Second of all I see once again the cheap personal attack that so many seem to resort to on these forums saying that i cant stand people having different opinions/ being happy.

How can you tell. You are just trolling by saying that. You can have no idea what the emotions behind my wrods are based on a few sentences on a board. You certainatly dont have the evidence to go around making claims that i am opposed to the happyness of the masses.

And its not me but the Spanish media which is mixing economics with football. I didnt call 2010 the year of July 11th, El pais did, so dont blame the messenger. Theres also the Spanish advert, cant remember if it was this thread or another where it was discussed, where nike calls sport the light in our lives, during these bad economic times for Spain.

So if you dont like these discussions, blame not me but nike and el pais.

 

[D-Queued]

...

I recall in the last winter olympics Canada "owning the podium", not allowing foreign athletes to practise on the ski hills. They defended themselves by saying that they are not proud of their record of never having won an olympic gold on home soil, despite hosting 2 olympics. Many pointed out at the time that presumably they must then be proud of the fact that they are acting like a spoilt child in the way they are treating their guests.

Its really come to something when the number of olympic golds won is more important than being fair to your guests.

...

Hitch, you are straying outside your core expertise.

The Vancouver Olympics had venues ready sooner than any other winter Olympics. All competitors were able to access the venues - typically in a major competition one year before the Olympics. A lack of snow (hey, it is a winter games) cannot be blamed on the organizers.

In fact, the Cypress venue was ready three years before:

Cypress Mountain freestyle venue competition-ready for 2010 Winter GamesNov 16, 2006

More than three years before freestyle skiers dazzle spectators with their jumps, twists and turns at the aerials and moguls events in 2010, the freestyle site at Cypress Mountain is the first 2010 Winter Games venue to be competition-ready

As for the 'own the podium' campaign, how else do you try and sell a $1B security tab to the rest of the country?

And, having been such gracious hosts in the past, hosting a big party for everyone and giving away all the top medals, isn't it about time that Dudley Do Right actually tried to win something?

And Francois, if there was any Cold War melting through hockey shouldn't we be looking at the 1972 series - and not the 1980 Lake Placid thing?

"
A U.S. expert on postwar international relations is shedding fresh light on how hockey -- including the 1972 Canada-Soviet Summit Series -- emerged as a key arena for East Bloc power struggles and foreign intrigue during the Cold War

...

Even before you get to the diplomacy for the Summit Series, you have Canadian diplomats who are very concerned when Canadian teams would tour Europe or play in the world championships," said Soares, referring to "telegrams and memos" from Canada's embassies in Germany and Czechoslovakia, for example, where consular officials are arguing that "we need to make sure the Europeans understand how Canadians play their game by their rules ... so [they] don't mistake this physical, robust style played by Canadians as poor sportsmanship and deliberate dirty play."

Dave.

 

[roundabout]

IIRC the complaint at Vancouver was about alpine skiing not freestyle. I'll search for a link now...

Something like that

http://olympics.fanhouse.com/2010/02/19/svindal-denied-chance-to-train-with-canadians/#cntnt

Edit again: there were no pre-olympic events

and more

To improve Canada’s chances in skiing, the downhill course at Whistler was built each of the last two springs and surrounded with safety fencing, at a cost of more than $100,000. Although Canada’s ski team has strong alliances, particularly with Norway, they go only so far.

“Once we go to downhill training in Whistler, it has to be exclusive to Canadians,” Gartner said. “Knowing Whistler and the conditions that can possibly happen there, it is an advantage if you’ve run that downhill a few times. There’s no question.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/21/sports/21olympics.html?pagewanted=all

 

[The Hitch]

Hitch, you are straying outside your core expertise.

The Vancouver Olympics had venues ready sooner than any other winter Olympics. All competitors were able to access the venues - typically in a major competition one year before the Olympics. A lack of snow (hey, it is a winter games) cannot be blamed on the organizers.

Dave

I never said the winter venues werent ready early. I was talking about the "own the podium" thing which you talked about in the second half of your post.

You phrase it nicely that having given away all those medals, some felt it was time for Canada to win a few themselves. But thats my point. Sporting success became more important than well, simple manners really.

Me, i invite someone over, i let them choose, and treat them with hospitality. They get their drink FIRST.

Maybe we poles are just backward though

 

[Francois the Postman]

Their problems are economic, religious, political etc and sport will NEVER solve or even adress them.

Which is pretty much why no-one is making that argument, but it's the sticking point you keep coming back to.

Sport has a function in society that you completely ignore in your pov. It is a rallying point for tribal impulses that we all have. And if we are gonna rally for something, there are infinitely worse things to rally to than the sporting arena.

But you suggested in your first post that its good to play things out in sporting arenas rather than trenches.

No, I said that sports can be a place where certain tensions can be (and are) played out so we don't need to settle all of it in trenches.

I keep saying it is healthy release valve. I don't claim it lets all air out, nor do I suggest it takes away the source of tensions.

So I didn't say they "settle" things, on the whole, although I do propose that sport events have given a form of "closure" to lingering grievances held by those that were wronged. Finally beating the "arch enemy" in football is but one of those occasions.

Simply hosting mayor sport events is often seen by those that feel marginalised as recognition of their worth. You can argue all you want about the things that the World Cup in SA didn't address, it was experienced as an "arrival of sorts" by many South Africans (and "wider" Africans), a recognition that they felt they were long due.

It might not be as substantial as I'd like it to be, but we are emotional creatures, and if "they" experience it that way, it can only help with their confidence and self-image. Which again feeds other areas.

Apart from that, that Mandela moment does cement a change in South Africa that has taken place, and will be proudly remembered as such. There are many "underdogs" that look back proudly at their first global recognition of their arrival, or the first time they got their own back on their arch-rival. And often, it is sports that enables this type of "popular" experience.

And the sports arena gives a stage to aspiring Davids who go straight to Goliath's front door and knock it down. Images generated by individuals that have become symbols that are recognized the world over. The gesture of a few black US athletes on the Olympic stage. The two fingers up that Jesse Owens gave the Nazi hosts during the Berlin Olympics, simply by beating their finest.

Sport, almost like no other popular pastime, has the capacity to generate emotions and images that transcend their "actual" worth for large sways of the population, simply because of its popular appeal.

You are very good at finding the occurrences where it is used for evil. You keep saying things like "it didn't solve Aids", "Chinese still booted folk out of their house to make way for a stadium", and "****stan and India aren't the best of friends". Anecdotes, however, do not make a blanket rule.

There are counter-examples a-plenty too. Again, given the overwhelming amount of sport there is on planet earth, what you raise are still very much the exceptions. And what you raise only proves that sport cannot fix all problems that are already there.

Sport also has the ability to help break down existing barriers. When nations that have previously been add odds with each other, sharing sport events is frequently picked as a first very public step towards better relationships. It won't solve things right away. But it certainly has been a very useful tool in overcoming "other" obstacles.

I keep failing to see this overwhelming case that you appear to be advocating, that sport as rule "creates" problems. That is your angle. But is not substantiated by your argument or examples.

I also expect that without sport, a seriously important release valve would be removed from the "very" real world, as you put it. Sport is the real world too. It is at this level I do have a problem with folk like Orwell, who think too much for their own good about lofty 9and admirable) ideals, forgetting that the simple things in live genuinely matter as much and are as important to most people.

For most people, sport seems to give an outlet to a very strong human experience need. The real world needs sports. Without it, there would be a lot more tension and scores going around that would find more violent and direct ways to get settled.

Some prefer debate for sporting competition I guess. For feeding a need that resides in all of us, in one form or another. And simultaneously pretend that sport is much different from what you and I are doing here. Debate hasn't exactly brought world peace either, has it now? Just think about all the atrocities triggered by big thinkers and "(temporarily) won arguments". That list is endless too. Yet you and I would probably agree that debate, ideals and opinions are, on the whole, a good thing, despite all the examples of where it went wrong. Look where it got us, on balance. Yet you reverse that stance for sports, which has a lot less blood on its hands.

Hope neither one of us is a sore loser. Nothing good will come out of this exchange ;-)

 

[Granville57]

I dont see what the USA vs Iran football match achieved. If americans really did hate Iranian people and think they were evil or something, then they are even more stupid than they are portrayed...

Well far be it from me to claim that Americans are not "stupid" when it comes to international awarenesss but when you go back to the late 1970's, and the takeover of the American embassy in Iran—yes, Americans really did hate all things Iranian. Ignorance is always a wonderful fuel for such feelings, but when American Marines were being shown on nightly TV, blindfolded and led by an angry mob, it hardly required much of a spark to light the fire of hate. The emotional wound of that was played for maximum effect, and the scars are still there for many who were old enough to remember. It's simply true.

Now let's be clear on a few things:
I am not speaking for every American, but these feelings were very widespread.

I am not portraying my own view, or justifying others, because I was too young at the time to have much of a rational perspective. To most children, it was just simply frightening. But those feelings of distrust were programmed into us.

So let me reduce the Iran vs USA image down to a personal-only perspective:
It was touching, moving and inspiring to see American athletes cast off of a prejudice that had been long simmering within the United States. It was significant. Trust me. And seeing the Iranian athletes equally embrace the moment was sobering. It was reassuring.

And i dont buy the olympic spirit "it unites cultures" line. I dont think it does. In fact i remember the last olympics being held in a dictatorship and lots of protests regarding human rights abuses, and some boycotts and many locals forced to leave their homes to make way for developments for the olympics.

You see, we're just talking about different things here, different perspectives perhaps. I couldn't agree more with you on all these issues. In the interest of brevity I tried to sum up my own feelings when I said, "Are The Games flawed in many ways behind the scenes? Definitely."

Again, I agree wholeheartedly with all your points. But my point was,
"The Olympics appeal to our better selves in terms of interacting with one another—just ask the athletes."

I was referring directly to the one-on-one, personal exchanges that go on between athletes (and fans, for that matter) from around the world. For many, the olympics provide the only opportunity in their lives when such interactions, with such a diverse group, will ever occur. I am not defending the sickeningly corrupt manueveurs that go on behind the scenes—nor am I unaware of them. But I like to think that in light of all that corruption—and evil—the moments of individual human beings embracing each other, sometimes quite literally, are all the more compelling and worth having if a better society is what we seek.