Speech by Greg Lemond

[grimpeur]

I think what's is going on is that Lemond wants the omerta cracked—broken open, regardless of anyone's record or past. The LA "haters" want the same thing. The Armstrong supporters have no problem with "business as usual" and don't think an omerta exists nor that LA is part of one. And if LA is part of one, so what, that's cycling. You're ruining our hero worship.

 

[rapistwit]

We don't and you haven't provided any proof he has, but I am convinced every rider has taken somethng that wasn't on the banned list at that time. There is proof that Armstrong has, physical and tesitimonial proof.

Now, what we do know is that EPO was very new at that time Lemond finished his career and became popular in the 90s by the big riders: Riis, and two other Telekom racers whose names escape me. I am sure others on that team but the admitted it. Many others suspected......

We also know that during the 80s that riders did not go all out from Stage 1 to the Champs Elleyses. They would go all out at the end of the flat stages. The Giro was used as a warm up.....many other points can be brought up and in other threads they have.

Plain and simple......pro-riders dope today but its a full blown system built into the team dynamics. It is organized, and its all riders not just Armstrong and Armstrong didn't create the system. He only benefitted it.

I agree the system has more potent enhancers now but its probably a fairly level playing field. So this constant bashing of Armstrong seems over the top.
Nearly every major Tour contender has been tied to drugs in one way or another.
Frankly, watching cycling now is like watching professional wrestling or SciFi movies,you have to suspend your disbelief.
I also get tired of the focus on riders alone. As you've pointed out, its organized. No one is going to convince me Team Astana, Team Telekom, US Postal, Festina, etc's management weren't aware of and encouraging the doping.
Along with race directors and organizers. There is a code of silence out there that should be broken (not by Lemond though, he has too many axes to grind).

 

[rapistwit]

Ah yes, the Armstrong "Lemond's '89 ride was the gateway to EPO" talking point. Its funny, you are just so subtle, yet still completely transparent.....especially considering that Lemond covered this in his speech. Guess you didn't have time to watch it, huh?

And you are reading something between the lines that isn't there.
I am not suggesting Lemond started EPO use. Performance enhancers existed before EPO.

 

[Anonymous]

I agree the system has more potent enhancers now but its probably a fairly level playing field. So this constant bashing of Armstrong seems over the top.
Nearly every major Tour contender has been tied to drugs in one way or another.
Frankly, watching cycling now is like watching professional wrestling or SciFi movies,you have to suspend your disbelief.
I also get tired of the focus on riders alone. As you've pointed out, its organized. No one is going to convince me Team Astana, Team Telekom, US Postal, Festina, etc's management isn't aware and encouraging the doping.
Along with race directors and organizers. There is a code of silence out there that should be broken (not by Lemond though, he has too many axes to grind).

......or by Bassons, Simeoni, Kohl......well, you get the point. I don't care who does it. In fact, the more the better.

 

[Anonymous]

Plus if LeMond did take drugs in his career, it would be like comparing someone who smokes pot to a heroin addict. Both illegal and wrong but worlds apart in so many ways, its not even right to compare them.

no! absolutely not. you don't get away with that.
one is not better because they were less of a cheat than the other. and the analogy you make is poor. the point isn't comparing what was available to greg with what was available later, but whether using what was available would give a competitive advantage over those that don't.

anyone but me see the problems in banning someone based on their power output?
any actual racers want a crack at that?
it's an absolutely stupid idea.
i don't blame the writers for reporting greg's speech, but it's exactly the same speech i've heard him make before and therefor, to me , not news.
unlike you, i once admired greg, and no longer do.
let's wait until after monday and see what we think of the current program.

 

[BroDeal]

unlike you, i once admired greg, and no longer do.

I am sure he will cry himself to sleep over the loss of your support.

 

[BroDeal]

The 47-year-old recalled meeting Ferrari in 1994. "I had an SRM meter and he looked down at me and said, 'What is that?' I said, 'It's a watt-measuring device'. He said, 'What do you need that for?' I said, 'So I can see if I'm progressing, when I should be recovering and when I should train again'... He had no concept of it.

Now I don't want to defend Dr. Ferrari, but I knew him while I was a medical student in Bologna, Italy during the late 80' and 90's. He was also one of the first Italians to race triathlons at that time. I also had the opportunity for him perform Conconi tests on myself and the other members of my team numerous times during that period. I remember seeing him in the fall of '91 and discussing wattage based training methods. While I was a medical student, I had the type of conversation with him that he is referring to. Only it was in 1991. In fact, the office based Conconi tests were performed on a stationary cycle that read watts. He was obsessed with watt/kg numbers. Lemond makes some interesting points when he discusses doping, but this statement is flat out wrong. Unfortunately, there are very few people who can call him him out on this type of stuff. Now it makes me wonder about the other stuff he spews.

I find this really interesting.

You cannot trust any of these guys. They always twist the truth to serve themselves.

 

[Escarabajo]

And you are reading something between the lines that isn't there.
I am not suggesting Lemond started EPO use. Performance enhancers existed before EPO.

You know there is a big difference between EPO and the other substances back in the 80's right? Even if he did something in 89 it does not explain why he won that tour and the next tour other than talent. Even if you are right, you are wrong about comparing the two eras and the substances used in them.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I've heard otherwise on Lemond. .

All right, I'm going to call you out on this. Name your sources. Show your evidence. If you have proof that Lemond doped, say it. This is a very public forum where a lot is discussed in the open. So name your sources, or STFU.

I'm with Indurain (poster) on this. I'd love to see a big press conference just before the Tour, with Greg, Andy, Patrice Clerc, Sylvia Shenk, and a few of the other true anti-doping people stand up there and demand a clean sport. There might be some power in numbers like this, and put some real pressure on the UCI and other organizations to do something serious. I think they could probably make some phone calls and get some others to join them. Sounds like Hinault might be a good start.

 

[slcbiker]

There was blood doping/boosting back in the 80's (maybe earlier as well), and that has much the same impact as EPO.

Amphetamine use long before that. Not so useful over a 3 week GT, but for that little extra boost during a one-day classic, probably even more effective than EPO.

As for this being a public forum and naming sources -- I don't see alot of people here using their real names. Not alot of value in naming sources without putting your real name out there. Joe Papp signed in, and I'd bet that it really was him, but we don't really have any proof do we? Nature of the the internet...

 

[rapistwit]

All right, I'm going to call you out on this. Name your sources. Show your evidence. If you have proof that Lemond doped, say it. This is a very public forum where a lot is discussed in the open. So name your sources, or STFU.
.

No I'm not going to name sources and no I'm not going to STFU.

 

[Escarabajo]

There was blood doping/boosting back in the 80's (maybe earlier as well), and that has much the same impact as EPO.

Amphetamine use long before that. Not so useful over a 3 week GT, but for that little extra boost during a one-day classic, probably even more effective than EPO.

As for this being a public forum and naming sources -- I don't see alot of people here using their real names. Not alot of value in naming sources without putting your real name out there. Joe Papp signed in, and I'd bet that it really was him, but we don't really have any proof do we? Nature of the the internet...

Yeah. I can see the riders from the 80's with fridges and blood bags going to hotels and doing blood doping at night. Somehow I have a very hard time believing that.

 

[Anonymous]

I think what's is going on is that Lemond wants the omerta cracked—broken open, regardless of anyone's record or past. The LA "haters" want the same thing. The Armstrong supporters have no problem with "business as usual" and don't think an omerta exists nor that LA is part of one. And if LA is part of one, so what, that's cycling. You're ruining our hero worship.

i think that's an unfair assumption. it's kind of an insult really.
it's really a holier than thou attitude you can take and put where the sun don't shine.
who are you a fan of? are they beyond suspicion?

 

[Anonymous]

The 47-year-old recalled meeting Ferrari in 1994. "I had an SRM meter and he looked down at me and said, 'What is that?' I said, 'It's a watt-measuring device'. He said, 'What do you need that for?' I said, 'So I can see if I'm progressing, when I should be recovering and when I should train again'... He had no concept of it.

Now I don't want to defend Dr. Ferrari, but I knew him while I was a medical student in Bologna, Italy during the late 80' and 90's. He was also one of the first Italians to race triathlons at that time. I also had the opportunity for him perform Conconi tests on myself and the other members of my team numerous times during that period. I remember seeing him in the fall of '91 and discussing wattage based training methods. While I was a medical student, I had the type of conversation with him that he is referring to. Only it was in 1991. In fact, the office based Conconi tests were performed on a stationary cycle that read watts. He was obsessed with watt/kg numbers. Lemond makes some interesting points when he discusses doping, but this statement is flat out wrong. Unfortunately, there are very few people who can call him him out on this type of stuff. Now it makes me wonder about the other stuff he spews.

yes! that's what i'm talking about!! thank you thank you thank you!

 

[rapistwit]

You know there is a big difference between EPO and the other substances back in the 80's right? Even if he did something in 89 it does not explain why he won that tour and the next tour other than talent. Even if you are right, you are wrong about comparing the two eras and the substances used in them.

I disagree with you on this. Steriods, blood transfusions, etc were prevelant prior to EPO and the made big differences in performance.

 

[BroDeal]

No I'm not going to name sources and no I'm not going to STFU.

So we can take this as an acknowledgement that you don't have a source, you cannot point to any evidence, and you are pulling allegations out of your **** with nothing to back them up. Gotcha. Now we know where you are coming from.

 

[Anonymous]

Yeah. I can see the riders from the 80's with fridges and blood bags going to hotels and doing blood doping at night. Somehow I have a very hard time believing that.

oh of course, that being before the invention of freezers and blood transfusions.
really, maybe they didn't but it was certainly possible.

 

[Snake8]

Le Mond got me into cycling. I've always had a soft spot for the guy. Armstrong when he first came back from cancer was a true inspiration for a lot of people, myself included. The sad and perhaps interesting part of this whole drama is that we are talking about two hyper competitive people who have major personality flaws. Greg tends to overstate everything and LA is the most insanely controlling athlete. Its almost Shakesperean in its epic qualities of hero failure. Of course the only true losers are the ones who think these people are heros to begin with.

There are no heros, only winners and losers.

In any case, there have always been athletes who rise quickly in performance cheating or not, and it is likewise very common for a high level athlete to simply stop being able to compete at a high level. I think you'll need better anecdotal evidence than someone had a good day! I mean have you ever ridden a bike?

 

[rapistwit]

So we can take this as an acknowledgement that you don't have a source, you cannot point to any evidence, and you are pulling allegations out of your **** with nothing to back them up. Gotcha. Now we know where you are coming from.

No you can take this as I'm not going to drag other people into this minor debate. If you don't want to believe it, don't. I couldn't care less. And if you want to get petty about it send me a private message and we'll keep it off the public forum.

 

[Escarabajo]

oh of course, that being before the invention of freezers and blood transfusions.
really, maybe they didn't but it was certainly possible.

Possible is less than 25% chance of hapenning. I am in better shape now.

 

[euphrades]

Lemond's 1989 season is really suspect. He went from barely being able to hang with the peleton to magically winning the Tour and the Worlds.
My guess is something funny was going on in the Giro. He was riding poorly then suddenly stormed to a high finish in a TT.
On top of that Lemond had spent a season with PDM, which again is really suspect.
I don't really know what you mean by "pedigree"?
Armstrong has always been considered a top class cyclist.
Maybe not a Tour winner early on but a Sean Kelly caliber rider.
But hey look at Indurains Tour performances. He was well down on the GC for years.

yea his doctors documented that he required iron injection shots. during the GIRO his coach noticed that he was looking a little jaundice and they did a blood test and found that even iron pills weren't being absorbed by his body.

 

[slcbiker]

Blood boosting almost definitely happened on the US cycling team in the '84 Olympics.
http://www.stanford.edu/~learnest/cyclops/dopes.htm

Stupid to assume it wasn't going on in the pro peloton at the same time.

 

[euphrades]

No I'm not going to name sources and no I'm not going to STFU.

Then what you are saying about Lemond has no merit, its nothing more than hersay......

 

[Epicycle]

Blood boosting almost definitely happened on the US cycling team in the '84 Olympics.
http://www.stanford.edu/~learnest/cyclops/dopes.htm

Stupid to assume it wasn't going on in the pro peloton at the same time.

That's common knowledge. Common knowledge that Moser blood doped when he set the hour record. But I have heard no stories about blood doping during stage races back then. None.

 

[Anonymous]

All right, I'm going to call you out on this. Name your sources. Show your evidence. If you have proof that Lemond doped, say it. This is a very public forum where a lot is discussed in the open. So name your sources, or STFU.

I'm with Indurain (poster) on this. I'd love to see a big press conference just before the Tour, with Greg, Andy, Patrice Clerc, Sylvia Shenk, and a few of the other true anti-doping people stand up there and demand a clean sport. There might be some power in numbers like this, and put some real pressure on the UCI and other organizations to do something serious. I think they could probably make some phone calls and get some others to join them. Sounds like Hinault might be a good start.

well, at least we now know where you visions of purity lie. in a bygone ear where people so pure you didn't even need to do much if any testing.

exactly how do you think they could catch the cheats?, and don't give me greg's cockamamie ideas. what can they do that they're not already doing?
do you know of some way to test for doping with your own blood?
do you believe guys are testing positive for drugs and theirs a conspiracy to cover up the results? how many people would have to be in on that one?