Speech by Greg Lemond

[rapistwit]

Did you read wtf I wrote? The opposing sides in this debate are... Have you followed the pro/con threads on this board for long?

Lemond wants the omerta busted open... you with me there?

The "haters" being anyone that suggests LA doped. Clear?

The LA supporters that will believe to their dying day that LA is/was clean and that attack any messenger that suggests an omerta or that LA was juiced. Still clear?

And the LA apologists that say, "oh well, they all doped." Don't tear down our hero!

So what is so "holier than thou" about that assessment? I'd suggest you put your jhammer exactly where you suggested I put my comment.

Yes everyone fits neatly into those categories.
Got anymore strawmen that need knocking down?

 

[Anonymous]

The sad thing is that I was not joking.

no, the sad thing is that so called adults like you run out of vocabulary and ideas and have to resort to sputtering personal insults to defend your opinions, then hide behind the safety of their keyboards when exposed as the spineless blowhards they are.

 

[Anonymous]

LOLOLOLOL How true how true. Just walk away from this dude.

yes, for you and bro deal, that would be the wise thing to do.

 

[Escarabajo]

Many years ago, I heard rumours about blood doping in long distance running dating from the 70's. Lasse Viren was frequently named.

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1092549/index.htm

If you read the report, it could have been Bigboat talking. So the knowledge was there and it would have been possible. It was not invented post Lemond.

I dont have a problem with what Lemond is saying, more the way he is saying it.

I also get sick of everybody claiming that he was the one rider from the last 100 years who won 3 tours on nothing more than vitamins. He never cheated in a any way - no caffeine, pseudo-eph, cortisone etc.

C'mon, get real.

Sometimes, you have to accept that even your heroes pushed the boundaries past the rules of the day, whether it be EPO/blood doping in the modern era, or amphetamine, strychnine in days gone by. Both are cheating and they all did it. Get past this point and stop arguing over symantics.

100% of the peloton? Cheating is cheating. We can only hope for at least a more reduced field doing doping. I understand doping will always exists, but if we play the statistics we want to keep it to the minimum. Having said that, do you think that there are the same percentage of riders doping in the 80's as in the 90's?

If you do, then you are ready to answer if all the other sports are in the same situation as cycling or worse? (70-90%? doping)

If that is the case then in the work place there would be the same amount of people cheating, just because we are seeing that in the sports which would be a true representation of the human race, right?

Wouldn't be difficult to live like that?

 

[Parrot23]

I wrote this earlier in this thread, but it seems relevant here as well.

This has been covered in other threads, but the use of EPO and autologous blood transfusions from the early to mid 90s has transformed proverbial donkeys into race horses. In addition, the drugs, programs and doctors are very expensive and beyond the finances of most professional cyclists. Doping prior to the early 90s definitely existed but did not result in performance enhancement to the same level of EPO and blood transfusions (up to 20%), most likely did not change the order of finishers (unlike EPO etc when you get Kohl finishing 3rd in the TdF and, dare I say it, Armstrong transforming himself into a 7-time TdF winner when his physiology and pedigree would suggest this was impossible), and were readily available to all cyclists and did not require doctors or programs for their administration.

Exactly. Thanks for that.

 

[Parrot23]

he has a huge engine.

VO2 max of 78-80 is not a huge engine in the peleton, or in a lot of endurance sports. XC skiers have registered in the 90s. Fact.

 

[davidg]

100% of the peloton? Cheating is cheating. We can only hope for at least a more reduced field doing doping. I understand doping will always exists, but if we play the statistics we want to keep it to the minimum. Having said that, do you think that there are the same percentage of riders doping in the 80's as in the 90's?

If you do, then you are ready to answer if all the other sports are in the same situation as cycling or worse? (70-90%? doping)

If that is the case then in the work place there would be the same amount of people cheating, just because we are seeing that in the sports which would be a true representation of the human race, right?

Wouldn't be difficult to live like that?

Not sure what your point is, mine was specifically about Lemond (this topic) and how he puts himself (as others do) on a pedestal saying he never cheated and that EPO is new. I merely pointed out that EPO was a more convenient method of a blood alteration process that has been around since at least 1970 and so he would have had access to this (then) undetectable technology.

As far as cycling representing humanity, I beg to differ. It is comprised of people who are generally athletic, enjoy exercise and are motivated to some degree. Dont think that applies to the general population.

 

[Escarabajo]

Not sure what your point is, mine was specifically about Lemond (this topic) and how he puts himself (as others do) on a pedestal saying he never cheated and that EPO is new. I merely pointed out that EPO was a more convenient method of a blood alteration process that has been around since at least 1970 and so he would have had access to this (then) undetectable technology.

As far as cycling representing humanity, I beg to differ. It is comprised of people who are generally athletic, enjoy exercise and are motivated to some degree. Dont think that applies to the general population.

Regardless of what Lemmond did or not, I agree with his main point of breaking the Omerta and dissolving the UCI and putting a more effective organization in place. I don't want to argue whether he was 100% clean or not. But, again, don't you think there are differences batween caffeine tablets and EPO? It has been already been covered in this forum.

At the same time we as people, including you and assuming you live your life with integrity, expect our riders to behave likewise, and not like "lab rats". And that was the message that Greg was trying to convey to us.
Thanks.

 

[shawnrohrbach]

yes, for you and bro deal, that would be the wise thing to do.

Is this a threat?

 

[davidg]

live your life with integrity

Agreed............

 

[Anonymous]

I wrote this earlier in this thread, but it seems relevant here as well.

This has been covered in other threads, but the use of EPO and autologous blood transfusions from the early to mid 90s has transformed proverbial donkeys into race horses. In addition, the drugs, programs and doctors are very expensive and beyond the finances of most professional cyclists. Doping prior to the early 90s definitely existed but did not result in performance enhancement to the same level of EPO and blood transfusions (up to 20%), most likely did not change the order of finishers

a debatable conclusion. doing something for an advantage gives you and advantage. i don't see how you can conclude it didn't have an effect on results.

(unlike EPO etc when you get Kohl finishing 3rd in the TdF and, dare I say it, Armstrong transforming himself into a 7-time TdF winner when his physiology and pedigree would suggest this was impossible), and were readily available to all cyclists and did not require doctors or programs for their administration.

a debatable conclusion. 1993 uci world road racing champion, 2 time tour stage winner is pedigree. add a brush with death and chemo and you've got someone with displayed natural talent that's now motivated in a whole new way. i just saw what chemo did to my girlfriend's sister. are you convinced his body would have gone back to it's precancer state if not for some drug regime you seem convinced he was on? how do you account for the difference in his body post cancer. do you know of some drug cocktail that keeps your upper body from redeveloping?
lance probably did things other riders from his era were doing but if you think doctors and coaches took this poor sap with one testicle from the brink of oblivion and mediocrity, and using drugs alone turned him into secretariat... well, i know you're not nuts... but i'm not buying.
again NOT saying he's a chiorboy but i don't see how you outdope the competition to that degree. it's ludicrous.

 

[BroDeal]

a debatable conclusion. 1993 uci world road racing champion, 2 time tour stage winner is pedigree. add a brush with death and chemo and you've got someone with displayed natural talent that's now motivated in a whole new way. i just saw what chemo did to my girlfriend's sister. are you convinced his body would have gone back to it's precancer state if not for some drug regime you seem convinced he was on? how do you account for the difference in his body post cancer. do you know of some drug cocktail that keeps your upper body from redeveloping?

*facepalm*

Jeebus! You guys who have been pushing the muscle bound body from triathlon being wasted away by chemo need to think for a moment. By the time Armstrong was treated he had not been a triathlete for the better part of a decade. He had ridden tens upon tens of thousands of kilometers. This triathlon muscle crap is a myth.

We don't need to convince you. We have the facts. Armstrong's weight was one of the issues that was investigated during the SCA arbitration. His dramatic weight loss was a lie. Armstrong admitted there was neglible weight loss in his deposition. You have to go back to Bill Gates to find a more pitiful performance by a public figure while being deposed.

 

[Anonymous]

VO2 max of 78-80 is not a huge engine in the peleton, or in a lot of endurance sports. XC skiers have registered in the 90s. Fact.

and as we all know, cycling is nothing but a vo2max contest.
don't play games with the numbers.
his vo2 is 83-84
that's a huge engine.
lemond may have had a bigger "engine".
how many marathons did lemond run?

 

[Parrot23]

using drugs alone turned him into secretariat... well

Jackhammer/Lance, just about all the top riders behind him in the Tour were convicted dopers, and a clean rider with a middling VO2 max beats them by minutes? Hmmm, let me do some logic here. Hmmm. 1+1=4, right? That's your argument.

Have you seen the pics of past tours. Just look at the faces behind, with him, on the key climbs he beat. 1.2.3.4, doper, doper, doper, doper. Did the testers all make multiple independent protocol mistakes. Are they liars?

Fairy tales are for the credulous--and cheats. Self-delusion is the sweetest pleasure--and for some a very lucrative cheating biz. That's these guys' pt. on these threads. It's potentially the biggest sporting fraud (con job, get that) in modern history.

NB: even 83-84 VO2 max--which was not his figure--is not enough, without enriched blood. Fact.

BTW: Lance's marathon was a pretty poor performance. All that weight. Jalabert ran far faster than him. And Jalabert's engine is small compared with Greg's. Fact.

 

[Anonymous]

*facepalm*

Jeebus! You guys who have been pushing the muscle bound body from triathlon being wasted away by chemo need to think for a moment. By the time Armstrong was treated he had not been a triathlete for the better part of a decade. He had ridden tens upon tens of thousands of kilometers. This triathlon muscle crap is a myth.

We don't need to convince you. We have the facts. Armstrong's weight was one of the issues that was investigated during the SCA arbitration. His dramatic weight loss was a lie. Armstrong admitted there was neglible weight loss in his deposition. You have to go back to Bill Gates a more pitiful performance by a public figure while being deposed.

you'd think i'd poked this guy with a stick.

i'm not suprised to see this guy subcribes to the "drug fiends turned him into a monster" theory.
the muscle loss was a myth?
2 days after seeing my girlfiend's sister on her death bed, after failed chemo, this poor excuse for a human being would have you believe chemo doesn't cause wasting. he must think the photos of lance during chemo were fakes too.
of course he had dramatic wiegh loss you ***, he had cancer.
he didn't gain 10 pounds of it back.
and his cancer as a cause is a sham too? do you think that too? that he shamelessly exploits cancer victims and their faimilies too?
you make me sick.

 

[BroDeal]

you'd think i'd poked this guy with a stick.

i'm not suprised to see this guy subcribes to the "drug fiends turned him into a monster" theory.
the muscle loss was a myth?
2 days after seeing my girlfiend's sister on her death bed, after failed chemo, this poor excuse for a human being would have you believe chemo doesn't cause wasting. he must think the photos of lance during chemo were fakes too.
of course he had dramatic wiegh loss you ***, he had cancer.
he didn't gain 10 pounds of it back.
and his cancer as a cause is a sham too? do you think that too? that he shamelessly exploits cancer victims and their faimilies too?
you make me sick.

I have personally gone through the same number of cycles of chemotherapy that Armstrong did. I can give the exact amount of weight I lost.

You are trying to change the argument by confusing the weight lost during chemo with what weight Armstrong raced at after chemo. To top it off you add a bunch of crap about lack of sympathy for cancer sufferers, as though it bolsters your argument or has anything to do with it. Maybe this strawman argument style you like using works with other people--I doubt it--but it won't work with me.

 

[Anonymous]

Jackhammer/Lance, just about all the top riders behind him in the Tour were convicted dopers, and a clean rider with a middling VO2 max beats them by minutes? Hmmm, let me do some logic here. Hmmm. 1+1=4, right? That's your argument.

that's not what i said. i said drugs alone didn't do it. why this fixation on lance?

Have you seen the pics of past tours. Just look at the faces behind, with him, on the key climbs he beat. 1.2.3.4, doper, doper, doper, doper. Did the testers all make multiple independent protocol mistakes. Are they liars?

same question. why fix on lance all the time and not the others in the pictures, some of which didn't get caught and some of which are back.

NB: even 83-84 VO2 max--which was not his figure--is not enough, without enriched blood. Fact.

why don't we just give everybody a vo2 max test and award the highest result with the trophy? that seems to be your argument.

BTW: Lance's marathon was a pretty poor performance. All that weight. Jalabert ran far faster than him. And Jalabert's engine is small compared with Greg's. Fact.

he broke 3hrs. then wend 2:50.
lance had modest goals and met them.
running is way different than cycling. no coasting. cyclist get chance to catch a blow on down hills. runners find it hard to recover during a run, unless of course you slow down.
the kind of pain a suffering is different. different kind of muscle pain. different kind of tired. not a vo2 max kind of tired. a real overal fatigue.
marathons really hurt.

there's a bunch of world class marathoners with vo2 max in the seventies.

Bill Rodgers Marathon runner (2:09:27) 78.5
Sebastian Coe Middle distance (1 mile WR) 77.0
Grete Waitz Marathon runner (WR 1980) 73.0
Frank Shorter Marathon runner 71.0
Derek Clayton Marathon runner (WR 1969) 69.7

but, last time i checked marathoning wasn't a vo2 max contest either.
you actually have to go run 26.2 miles.
FACT!!!!@@

 

[Anonymous]

I have personally gone through the same number of cycles of chemotherapy that Armstrong did. I can give the exact amount of weight I lost.

You are trying to change the argument by confusing the weight lost during chemo with what weight Armstrong raced at after chemo. To top it off you add a bunch of crap about lack of sympathy for cancer sufferers, as though it bolsters your argument or has anything to do with it. Maybe this strawman argument style you like using works with other people--I doubt it--but it won't work with me.

and now you persist in wanting to argue this knowing that it's become a raw nerve for me. you wouldn' think to lay off a bit while i go through the loss. would you. special human being that you are.
no you want to talk about it now.
how about we compare your weight loss to that of my girls sister?
your a hard man.
i just wouldn't be particularly proud of it right this moment.

 

[Anonymous]

Regardless of what Lemmond did or not, I agree with his main point of breaking the Omerta and dissolving the UCI and putting a more effective organization in place. I don't want to argue whether he was 100% clean or not. But, again, don't you think there are differences batween caffeine tablets and EPO? It has been already been covered in this forum.

At the same time we as people, including you and assuming you live your life with integrity, expect our riders to behave likewise, and not like "lab rats". And that was the message that Greg was trying to convey to us.
Thanks.

he has no substance. a lot of talk, a quick shot at lance, and the cockamamie scheme about the power taps.
let me guess... he thinks they shouldn't dope... wow what insight.

 

[Anonymous]

what do we all think of lemond's idea for using output numbers combined with blood value monitoring to declare someone a drug cheat?

 

[Anonymous]

what do we all think of lemond's idea for using power output numbers combined with blood value monitoring to declare someone a drug cheat?

 

[biker jk]

what do we all think of lemond's idea for using power output numbers combined with blood value monitoring to declare someone a drug cheat?

An excellent idea I say. It would be a significant improvement on current methods which are very prone to false negatives. We know that the biopassport isn't working nor are tests for EPO, etc.

 

[BroDeal]

and now you persist in wanting to argue this knowing that it's become a raw nerve for me. you wouldn' think to lay off a bit while i go through the loss. would you. special human being that you are.
no you want to talk about it now.
how about we compare your weight loss to that of my girls sister?
your a hard man.
i just wouldn't be particularly proud of it right this moment.

What is this? After an attempt to divert the issue to weight loss during chemo fails, you now try to cynically exploit your situation by playing a victim to gain sympathy, crying crocodile tears over your strawman argument being burnt down? Pathetic.

 

[stephens]

what do we all think of lemond's idea for using power output numbers combined with blood value monitoring to declare someone a drug cheat?

I've been trying to get as many details about it as possible but so far it just sounds like a scheme by which the actual riding of the bicycles becomes unimportant. The winners must be the ones with the best "numbers", and anyone who performs better than his numbers say he should is a cheat and disqualified so... might as well just skip the actual racing and hand out the awards following the lab tests each spring.

 

[biker jk]

I've been trying to get as many details about it as possible but so far it just sounds like a scheme by which the actual riding of the bicycles becomes unimportant. The winners must be the ones with the best "numbers", and anyone who performs better than his numbers say he should is a cheat and disqualified so... might as well just skip the actual racing and hand out the awards following the lab tests each spring.

You must not have been trying hard enough to get those details. Perhaps that's why you are so dismissive of Lemond's idea (or you won't like the conclusions to be drawn about some riders?) From last October:

“It's all very well checking blood values," LeMond continued. "But if you're a smart doctor, you just always keep your rider's blood values high. EPO is only detectable within a few days, and that's why it's hard to detect it. Autologous blood transfusions, however, are not detectable at all – except through a carbon monoxide test, which is something [project co-ordinator of the Science and Industry Against Blood Doping] Michael Ashenden has proposed. It tests the volume of haemoglobin in the body, and can prove a positive for autologous blood transfusions. That's the kind of testing we must do, along with profiling athletes' natural oxygen intake and watts."

LeMond wants to see SRM-type power meters employed to measure riders' power outputs. "In SRMs, we have a quantitative way to do that, but unfortunately there have only been a few riders who have ever given out that personal information," bemoans LeMond. "I talked to [now former] ASO boss Patrice Clerc about having everyone on an SRM that's sealed. It would be controlled and calibrated by doctors, the police – but not the teams.”

"You'd get a continuous output of power recorded during a Tour stage and then if you found someone who had a VO2 Max of 80 and he was doing 500 watts for 30 minutes, you'd know that that was statistically and mathematically impossible to do. So then he's positive – boom! – he's out – that's doping. That's it – it's simple."

When it comes to teams like Garmin-Chipotle, who are attempting, like Armstrong, to be transparent by employing their own anti-doping medical programme, LeMond both praises and criticises such efforts. "[Garmin boss] Jonathan Vaughters is doing a phenomenal job," says LeMond. "What they're doing is good, but really that testing has got to be done by an independent group, and not policed from inside. What good is self-policing? It's like a wolf guarding a hen house. You've got to have a group with no self-interest."

"It should be up to a group like WADA. The riders just want to know that they can trust the system – that's all. If a crime's a crime, you're going to get busted. Cycling is so black and white when it comes to watts and we can have that data now – it's not a mystery. Last year there were climbers doing 450 watts but weighing 58-60kg – that's nearly 8 watts per kilo. That's impossible – unless we've all had some kind of genetic mutation over the past 15 years.
"There are certain physiologists who could blow the sport apart," says LeMond. "But they all earn their living by the sport, too, so they have something to lose, so there's this omerta [code of silence - ed]. That's the thing about cycling – it has its chance to make itself clean, and that's the direction the Tour de France organisation was going in.”