Stage 19: Friday, May 25: Treviso-Alpe di Pampeago. 198km

[richtea]

Why ?

I don't understand this either. If you've got 6 evenly matched guys then i would differences would be magnified rather than brought closer together, even if weaker guys benefit more.

 

[DenisMenchov]

The thing is you look at this race like it is a PCM not real life. In order to win the race you need to finish it with the best time.
So if one sets a very high tempo like Pozzo did in stage 17, others must follow, so when they go uphill they tire equally. In fact you always see the guys that are hanging in the back letting it go first rather than someone who is placed in 2nd or 3rd. Basic tactics for tomorrow is ride hard all day. Set your own pace on Mortirolo, if no one drop, you can always say I tried to win IL GIRO. If someone cracks others work their way up Stelvio and battle it out like real men. Minutes can be gained this way, yes you can finish minutes down also, but what did you really lost. I don't remember who finished 9th in Tour 2007, do you?

 

[Descender]

Honestly, I can't remember a more disappointing GT than this one.

The last two mountain stages in particular have been an insult to cycling.

 

[will10]

Honestly, I can't remember a more disappointing GT than this one.

The last two mountain stages in particular have been an insult to cycling.

You've not been watching cycling long then. It's not been the best, but far from the worst.

 

[the asian]

How well will Basso do tomorrow?

Has been very disappointing so far, and won't expect much to change
Seems to have lost it. Disappointing Tour last year and now this.

 

[Red Rick]

The thing is you look at this race like it is a PCM not real life. In order to win the race you need to finish it with the best time.
So if one sets a very high tempo like Pozzo did in stage 17, others must follow, so when they go uphill they tire equally. In fact you always see the guys that are hanging in the back letting it go first rather than someone who is placed in 2nd or 3rd. Basic tactics for tomorrow is ride hard all day. Set your own pace on Mortirolo, if no one drop, you can always say I tried to win IL GIRO. If someone cracks others work their way up Stelvio and battle it out like real men. Minutes can be gained this way, yes you can finish minutes down also, but what did you really lost. I don't remember who finished 9th in Tour 2007, do you?

Valverde, but i have to admit i have a special talent for remembering things nobody gives a damn about

Edit: **** i was wrong, anyway, i was close, he came 9th one year later

 

[Descender]

You've not been watching cycling long then. It's not been the best, but far from the worst.

I've been watching cycling since the early 90s thank you very much.

And kindly provide me with examples of more disappointing GTs.

 

[richwagmn]

You've not been watching cycling long then. It's not been the best, but far from the worst.

Yea, I'm not sure what the people who hate this Giro expected to see?

There clearly isn't one rider who's capable of dominating the race this year. How is this the organizer's fault?

And this blaming the racers because they're not going out on suicide attacks is just silly.

Given the parity in the field and the fact that the last days are so hard, who'd race any differently than they have?

I suppose they could have put the hardest stages in the middle, but then maybe one rider does have a great day, opens up a big gap, and you have a Discovery team type of GT where one team has it in the bag and pretty much rides tempo for the rest of the race.

Certainly the Giro isn't over yet either. Ryder could easily blow up tomorrow.

 

[staubsauger]

I don't remember who finished 9th in Tour 2007, do you?

popovych!?

 

[DenisMenchov]

popovych!?

Mikel Astarloza
but that is not the point of my post

 

[hrotha]

Yea, I'm not sure what the people who hate this Giro expected to see?

There clearly isn't one rider who's capable of dominating the race this year. How is this the organizer's fault?

And this blaming the racers because they're not going out on suicide attacks is just silly.

1. We expected to see at least something as good as 2011, which wasn't anything extraordinary. The two last mountain stages were some of the hardest, best designed routes in the history of ever, and we barely saw anything.

2. You don't need a dominating rider. In fact, it's better to have several riders at a similar level, provided they actually go for the win. Sadly this isn't happening.

3. No one's asking for suicide attacks. We're asking for perfectly reasonable, tactically sound attacks, of the kind we've seen dozens of times. Was Andy's attack last year a suicide attack? Hell no. It was his only chance to win. In this Giro, no one aside from Hesjedal is riding to win. Attacking with 2 km to go when they need to put a couple of minutes into Hesjedal *is* a suicide attack, in that there's no way it'll produce the desired effects.

It's not true that long-distance attacks are doomed to fail on a course like this. The parcours is perfect to blow up all domestiques, and when it's one on one with everybody at their limits, why would the one who went first necessarily lose?

 

[staubsauger]

Mikel Astarloza
but that is not the point of my post

but it (me mistaking) proofs you're right with your arguments in some way isn't it?

emanuele sella will always be remebered at the giro for his impressive attacks and stage wins during the years and not for beeing 6th, 10th and 12th at the gc in some editions (although guys like us know that actually)

 

[the asian]

In theory, you'd have to assume that Hesjedal should be weaker in a real endurance ride. But on the other hand, it was him putting his support riders on the front at the bottom of the final climb because it was too slow. I suspect that this might have demoralised Basso and Scarponi a bit and discouraged them from ramping it up early on the climb.

Hesjedal's DS said that the Giro suits Ryder more than Tour because he has good endurance and isn;t easily dropped by tempo climbing. Didn't believe it, but it seems true so far.

 

[Dutchsmurf]

1. We expected to see at least something as good as 2011, which wasn't anything extraordinary. The two last mountain stages were some of the hardest, best designed routes in the history of ever, and we barely saw anything.

2. You don't need a dominating rider. In fact, it's better to have several riders at a similar level, provided they actually go for the win. Sadly this isn't happening.

3. No one's asking for suicide attacks. We're asking for perfectly reasonable, tactically sound attacks, of the kind we've seen dozens of times. Was Andy's attack last year a suicide attack? Hell no. It was his only chance to win. In this Giro, no one aside from Hesjedal is riding to win. Attacking with 2 km to go when they need to put a couple of minutes into Hesjedal *is* a suicide attack, in that there's no way it'll produce the desired effects.

It's not true that long-distance attacks are doomed to fail on a course like this. The parcours is perfect to blow up all domestiques, and when it's one on one with everybody at their limits, why would the one who went first necessarily lose?

1. Take away Contador and the Giro last year was pretty boring. Everyone knew there was a huge chance Contador was going to get banned and his results would be removed. So everyone knew finishing second would be enough to get the win a couple months later. Yet there was hardly any racing behind Contador giving away stages left and right. The Giro is better than the 2011 edition if you pretend Contador wasn't there.

2. We got several riders at the same level, trying to win in the best way they can. For exciting races you either need an interesting break (Giro 2010, Voeckler in Tour 2011) or different kinds or riders who can beat each other in their specialty. In this Giro there are no superior climbers, so it gets boring by default.

3. Andy's attack was a suicide attack. So was Contador's. In both cases it didn't pay off in the end now did it? Simple fact is that in this Giro there isn't anybody at the level of Andy or Contador, not even close.

The parcours being perfect to blow up all domestiques is irrelevant if the riders aren't capable of doing so. Nobody in the top 10 is capable of blowing up the other team's domestiques. We saw Liquigas try a couple times, it just doesn't work. The parcours doesn't make the race, the riders do. And those riders are evenly matched and on their limits as it is.

 

[Descender]

Yea, I'm not sure what the people who hate this Giro expected to see?

There clearly isn't one rider who's capable of dominating the race this year. How is this the organizer's fault?

And this blaming the racers because they're not going out on suicide attacks is just silly.

Given the parity in the field and the fact that the last days are so hard, who'd race any differently than they have?

I suppose they could have put the hardest stages in the middle, but then maybe one rider does have a great day, opens up a big gap, and you have a Discovery team type of GT where one team has it in the bag and pretty much rides tempo for the rest of the race.

Certainly the Giro isn't over yet either. Ryder could easily blow up tomorrow.

How about trying to??

There is no such thing as parity. In a field of 200 riders, over 3500kms, some riders will inevitably be stronger than others.

The problem is, you won't get to make the difference if, with 19 out of 21 stages gone, the furthest attack by a contender in the whole race has taken place 3,4kms from the finish.

Who is asking for "suicide attacks"? I'm not asking the riders to attack a bloc from the bottom of the Manghen, the Duran and the Col de Joux. But riding hand-in-hand until the finish line day in, day out is beyond pathetic.

Hell, today I counted 32 riders at the bottom of the final climb, 6,4kms from the finish, after climbing the 3rd cat climb, Manghen, Passo di Pampeago and Lavazé. 32 riders ffs! Are you telling me the top contenders were going all-out, and there were just 25 other riders who were just on par with them?

Or might it be that they are so damn tamed and dull that they preferred to wait until they could see the finish to get something going, settling for difference of seconds instead of minutes?

The route is very deficient, of course. But, quite honestly, it is the riders who should feel ashamed today.

Oh and about the bolded part, that is exactly what we've had this Giro. Except without the killer attack from the dominating rider.

I'm not asking for anything extraordinary. I'm asking for the kind of things we've seen thousands of times in GTs. Sadly, it seems as if those kind of things are becoming more and more of a rarity...

 

[DenisMenchov]

but it (me mistaking) proofs you're right with your arguments in some way isn't it?

emanuele sella will always be remebered at the giro for his impressive attacks and stage wins during the years and not for beeing 6th, 10th and 12th at the gc in some editions (although guys like us know that actually)

Yes, exactly. Just give it a go, like Cataldo did, what was there to lose?

 

[DenisMenchov]

How about trying to??

There is no such thing as parity. In a field of 200 riders, over 3500kms, some riders will inevitably be stronger than others.

The problem is, you won't get to make the difference if, with 19 out of 21 stages gone, the furthest attack by a contender in the whole race has taken place 3,4kms from the finish.

Who is asking for "suicide attacks"? I'm not asking the riders to attack a bloc from the bottom of the Manghen, the Duran and the Col de Joux. But riding hand-in-hand until the finish line day in, day out is beyond pathetic.

Hell, today I counted 32 riders at the bottom of the final climb, 6,4kms from the finish, after climbing the 3rd cat climb, Manghen, Passo di Pampeago and Lavazé. 32 riders ffs! Are you telling me the top contenders were going all-out, and there were just 25 other riders who were just on par with them?

Or might it be that they are so damn tamed and dull that they preferred to wait until they could see the finish to get something going, settling for difference of seconds instead of minutes?

The route is very deficient, of course. But, quite honestly, it is the riders who should feel ashamed today.

Oh and about the bolded part, that is exactly what we've had this Giro. Except without the killer attack from the dominating rider.

Alpe d'Huez stage 2008 kinda reminds me of tomorrow's. Just it is even harder, and there Sastre got 2 minutes, maybe someone is planing that for tomorrow, at least one can hope.

 

[staubsauger]

Yes, exactly. Just give it a go, like Cataldo did, what was there to lose?

the reason might be they remembered that cunego was trying it last weekend but he was failing!

 

[DenisMenchov]

the reason might be they remembered that cunego was trying it last weekend but he was failing!

Cunego is clearly out of form, and I never thought of him as a GC contender, I like the guy, but he just doesn't have what it takes to win a GT, yes he won Il Giro, and in some fashion, but he never performed on that level ever since.

 

[rzombie1988]

I don't like the waiting for the last day and last 3km stuff. It doesn't make sense.

Everyone is going to hope tommorow is their hail mary day. Everyone is going to give everything and because everyone is doing that, no one is going to get any significant advantage. I don't think anyone will get more than a minute on someone else tops. The lead isn't going to change unless Ryder feels like taking the extra seconds a day early

This is the problem with waiting for the last day. Had someone tried something today or on a previous day with more than 3km to go, they might have a gotten a gap. They might have also gotten swept up too but let's be honest, none of the people like Basso or Scarponi were going to win it anyway without getting rid of Ryder. They had three weeks to make something work and instead the contenders choose to save it all for the last day. Meanwhile, Ryder and JRod made some moves earlier(and not huge moves mind you) and put themselves in good positions where they don't need hail mary attacks for the last day to win. This is how you can win a GT. I cannot think of anyone in memory who only got some two minute plus attack on the last day to win a GT.

I know the race has been pretty even with all of the contenders making a good attack hard, but that just means you have to attack smarter and more often. A few guys got knocked off the other day due to an attack group and had their been more of these over the last three weeks, more people would have gone down.

And why is Liquigas always in the front? Would things really have gone down less to their advantage with someone else taking the wheel? I think not. It's great that they want to make the pace hard, but they are really overworking themselves to acheive the inevitable anyway. The people who can't hang aren't going to hang, no matter the pace.

I await for the day when the peloton starts to realize that it isn't the last day that is the decisive day, but that all of the days leading up to it are the decisive days.

Cunego has nothing to be ashamed of. He tried and it didn't work. I'd rather be him than some of the other guys who did nothing and aren't going to win it either.

 

[jens_attacks]

liqugas was also always at the front in 2009 giro by the way where basso and pelli were murdered by killer and menchov
that's simply how basso wants to ride,always at the front.

 

[DenisMenchov]

I don't like the waiting for the last day and last 3km stuff. It doesn't make sense.

Everyone is going to hope tommorow is their hail mary day. Everyone is going to give everything and because everyone is doing that, no one is going to get any significant advantage. I don't think anyone will get more than a minute on someone else tops. The lead isn't going to change unless Ryder feels like taking the extra seconds a day early

This is the problem with waiting for the last day. Had someone tried something today or on a previous day with more than 3km to go, they might have a gotten a gap. They might have also gotten swept up too but let's be honest, none of the people like Basso or Scarponi were going to win it anyway without getting rid of Ryder. They had three weeks to make something work and instead the contenders choose to save it all for the last day. Meanwhile, Ryder and JRod made some moves earlier(and not huge moves mind you) and put themselves in good positions where they don't need hail mary attacks for the last day to win. This is how you can win a GT. I cannot think of anyone in memory who only got some two minute plus attack on the last day to win a GT.

I know the race has been pretty even with all of the contenders making a good attack hard, but that just means you have to attack smarter and more often. A few guys got knocked off the other day due to an attack group and had their been more of these over the last three weeks, more people would have gone down.

And why is Liquigas always in the front? Would things really have gone down less to their advantage with someone else taking the wheel? I think not. It's great that they want to make the pace hard, but they are really overworking themselves to acheive the inevitable anyway. The people who can't hang aren't going to hang, no matter the pace.

I await for the day when the peloton starts to realize that it isn't the last day that is the decisive day, but that all of the days leading up to it are the decisive days.

Cunego has nothing to be ashamed of. He tried and it didn't work. I'd rather be him than some of the other guys who did nothing and aren't going to win it either.

Sastre 2008 , Evans 2011 Tour.

 

[hrotha]

Take away Contador and the Giro last year was pretty boring. Everyone knew there was a huge chance Contador was going to get banned and his results would be removed. So everyone knew finishing second would be enough to get the win a couple months later. Yet there was hardly any racing behind Contador giving away stages left and right. The Giro is better than the 2011 edition if you pretend Contador wasn't there.

That's why I said the Giro last year wasn't anything extraordinary, but the fact is Contador was there and that racing did happen. This Giro doesn't even come close. And if we compare it to the 2010 Giro you can only weep.

We got several riders at the same level, trying to win in the best way they can. For exciting races you either need an interesting break (Giro 2010, Voeckler in Tour 2011) or different kinds or riders who can beat each other in their specialty. In this Giro there are no superior climbers, so it gets boring by default.

No, they're not trying their best to win. They're all racing conservatively and hoping the other guys will collapse all by themselves. Basso and Scarponi needed to take serious time on Hesjedal - how was that going to happen in 3 km?

Andy's attack was a suicide attack. So was Contador's. In both cases it didn't pay off in the end now did it? Simple fact is that in this Giro there isn't anybody at the level of Andy or Contador, not even close.

What? Andy's attack wasn't a suicide attack. A suicide attack is what Pantani did in 2000: something with no chance of success. Andy actually succeeded. He didn't blow up. He won the stage. He took serious time on Evans, and if he had any chance of winning the Tour it was because of that attack. In fact, he lost that Tour because his "suicide attack" was too little, too late - or rather, because he decided he didn't need to race on the Pyrenees. Contador's attack was different, since he had already lost the GC. And if there's no one like Andy here, there's no one like Evans doing the chase either. History (even recent history) is full of examples of not-so-good riders duking it out with constant attacks. Even today, Casar was attacking Pirazzi, and they should be more tired than the peloton, right?

The parcours being perfect to blow up all domestiques is irrelevant if the riders aren't capable of doing so. Nobody in the top 10 is capable of blowing up the other team's domestiques. We saw Liquigas try a couple times, it just doesn't work. The parcours doesn't make the race, the riders do. And those riders are evenly matched and on their limits as it is.

I believe the riders were very capable of blowing up the domestiques. I've said it many times, Liquigas has been bluffing all along. If the actual contenders went, only the actual contenders would be able to follow. When a contender makes a serious go, your domestiques won't be able to do anything unless the terrain is very favourable to you - and that hasn't been the case in any mountain stage in this Giro.

It's simply impossible that all 30 something riders that made it over the climbs today were at the same level. It's obvious they weren't racing hard until 3.5 km to go.

 

[DenisMenchov]

liqugas was also always at the front in 2009 giro by the way where basso and pelli were murdered by killer and menchov
that's simply how basso wants to ride,always at the front.

You can't compare Menchov and Di Luca with Pozzovivo, Uran, Rodriguez, even Hesjedal and Scarponi are not in the same league. Basso was, but it seems he lsn't anymore.

 

[rzombie1988]

Sastre 2008 , Evans 2011 Tour.

Evans was set up to win it from the beginning. He had a stage win and 8 top 5's in that tour. Evans also stayed within contention and could rely on the TT to win. Alot of guys can't do that. Evans wouldn't have won without the TT.

Sastre was in yellow from stages 17 to 21, so no, he didn't save it for the last day.