State of Peloton 2023

[pastronef]

Roglic gets mocked for crashing a lot too. The only difference is the forum members have gone down. There’s outrage all over against Jumbo and on this forum. The only difference is there’s not the two sides constantly bickering to rack up posts. Take Vinge’s thread for example; the TT happened and he got a lot of hate, Vinge or Danish fans came and defended him, and then they left. There wasn’t a back and forth arguing. If Jumbo and Sky were swapped in time you’d be talking how the Dutch got all the hate while the Brits don’t.

yes. yes! if instead of Sky, there was Jumbo 2013-2018 I'd be backing them, I'd be a fan, I'd be arguing like I did. I'm Italian, I have no flag in the game.
but I'm glad it was the Brits that put a "coup" on the cycling world and dared beat the traditional nations, the flag bearers of real cycling, and the real fans, at their own game. it was funnier

 

[hrotha]

yes. yes! if instead of Sky, there was Jumbo 2013-2018 I'd be backing them, I'd be a fan, I'd be arguing like I did. I'm Italian, I have no flag in the game.
but I'm glad it was the Brits that put a "coup" on the cycling world and dared beat the traditional nations, the flag bearers of real cycling, and the real fans, at their own game. it was funnier

"I'm a contrarian borderline troll" is way shorter

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Roglic gets mocked for crashing a lot too. The only difference is the forum members have gone down. There’s outrage all over against Jumbo and on this forum. The only difference is there’s not the two sides constantly bickering to rack up posts. Take Vinge’s thread for example; the TT happened and he got a lot of hate, Vinge or Danish fans came and defended him, and then they left. There wasn’t a back and forth arguing. If Jumbo and Sky were swapped in time you’d be talking how the Dutch got all the hate while the Brits don’t.

Also there's the fact that the Sky period of domination, as well as coming directly after the rise of social media and during a period where internet forum was relatively high compared to today, also came directly after a period of cycling history where anti-doping had been at its most prominent. There were large numbers of high-profile busts at major races for a few years post-Armstrong, and prominent riders who had been busted were slowly filtering back into the game across the period from 2009-2012. We had a few high profile 'talkers' among those who were busted - Sella, Sinkewitz, Kohl, Frei, Landis, Rasmussen - and major ongoing investigations leading to things like the Reasoned Decision.

There was a lot of news, a lot of information, and a lot of knowledge (even if often only half-understood) going around at the time which enhanced interest in the Clinic side of the sport and kept a high churn of conversation topics.

Since the UCI took back over control of anti-doping, however, the rate of anti-doping progress seems to have stalled; apart from when they kick their own own goals like the Froome salbutamol positive being leaked, we don't hear so much. Even when big names are busted, it's usually for relatively trivial things that don't even result in bans (Quintana and the tramadol) or they're to do with the police getting involved, not the UCI (López). We've seen huge gaping holes poked in the fabric of anti-doping by lawyers being able to use extremely flimsy and unlikely - but crucially not implausible - justifications for fluctuations in blood values or presences of substances in samples. The Roman Kreuziger biopassport case, and Daryl Impey's and Chris Froome's positives being explained away, mean that the burden of proof required to secure an anti-doping conviction against the biopassport or on controlled but not forbidden substances now seems to be much harder.

I feel that as a result of this, a lot of people that previously posted in the Clinic more frequently have rather lost faith in the ability - or perhaps even more crucially, the willingness - of the authorities to keep a lid on doping, and so are less interested in probing into it simply because, you know, if you don't have faith that the authorities are trying to catch the cheats, or even if you do have faith that the authorities are trying to catch the cheats but don't have faith that they are able to secure convictions based on the cases we've seen, the motivation to discuss it wanes.

 

[EddyMazzoleni]

it doesn't matter what you believe. I partially get what you mean
but when Sky was winning, its riders were abused for anything they did. remember Rowe's injury was blamed to doping and ostheoporosis. every Sky rider crashing was mocked (Roglic crashes a lot too)
when Sky was winning we heard "cycling is in danger"
it's much quieter now. I don't say Jumbo is not suspicious or not accused
the anger, the anger and obsession is not there anymore

But you have too take in consideration the hystorical context.
In 2021 GT racing was coming from a period of relative parity, and a team start to dominate out of nowhere, with former track cyclist and some no name mind you. Plus they also start turning classic guys in to mountain domestique to implement a boring ass tactic. So people got rally fed up with them.
Now, Jumbo are guilty of much of the same stuff, and are even more loudricous in some aspects, but first, they broke the percivied domination of Pogacar and Gianetti, whom many people despise, and also they have a fair antagonist in UAE, which can also turn random domestique in amazing climbers from one day to another (shout out to Mikkel Bjerg) and midfield GC riders into Tour podium contender.
And sky is still there, doing their staff. 37 years old former track rider and lanterne rouge podiuming the Giro, Dennis flattening the Stelvio after he got clobbered by O'Connor the day before spring to mind.
What i mean is, most people can accept doping if there is a hint of parity and competition in the sport which this year we had, bar the Vuelta.
Also Jumbo PR* is not as annoying as that of Sky, and, as other posters have said, less people are defending them.
Now, with my rant completed, i'll admit it's about time some one at Aigle picks up the phone and tell the yellow guys to chill the *** out.

* But they are getting close, with the continuous judgement of the others preparation, like mind you own goddam business, that's how you live 100 years

 

[zlev11]

one underrated annoying part about the Sky era was how they would roll out some new BS "marginal gain" every couple months. special pillows, warming down, special skinsuits, "reverse periodisation", "functional dehydration", they even ran a feature on US coverage of the TDF years ago where one of the reporters went into the Sky mechanics truck so they could show them how they had a bunch bike chains in bags that were at the perfect wear rate that they claimed saved watts. it was all so nauseating. Jumbo doesn't do any of that crap, they just shut up and dope and race and don't make any excuses.

 

[SHAD0W93]

one underrated annoying part about the Sky era was how they would roll out some new BS "marginal gain" every couple months. special pillows, warming down, special skinsuits, "reverse periodisation", "functional dehydration", they even ran a feature on US coverage of the TDF years ago where one of the reporters went into the Sky mechanics truck so they could show them how they had a bunch bike chains in bags that were at the perfect wear rate that they claimed saved watts. it was all so nauseating. Jumbo doesn't do any of that crap, they just shut up and dope and race and don't make any excuses.

Well, Vinge TT aside.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Also Jumbo PR* is not as annoying as that of Sky

Idunno, the legions of Benjis out there telling us that Sepp Kuss always kisses his grandma goodnight and always leaves the toilet smelling of roses gets pretty close.

 

[zlev11]

Well, Vinge TT aside.

did that actually come from them though? it wasn't very widely reported, or at least i didn't have to constantly hear about it whenever i watched cycling.

and still, everyone hear made fun of it! the same way we would have if Sky said it!

 

[Tim Cahill]

It's never so much the weird PR excuses for suspicious performances for me I.E bespoke pillows and paintless tt bikes, they have to say something I suppose. It's how the British People's Front and the People's Front of The Netherlands have deployed language in a way that belittles other teams.

'The others need to step up'

'We just pay more attention to x than the others'

Some teams also seem to have monopolised the arms race in a manner that delineates between the haves and the have nots, there is very little reaction this time within mainstream cycling media other than the token brushed-away question. I didn't hear a single mention of Hessmann's positive, especially within the context of his team occupying all 3 podium spots throughout the entire race.

Compare and contrast.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

There's at least one British INEOS rider who still gets poked fun at for crashing.

Also it doesn't really matter who it is, a team that dominates will always have to talk BS in order to defend themselves, and so will their fans.

 

[EddyMazzoleni]

Idunno, the legions of Benjis out there telling us that Sepp Kuss always kisses his grandma goodnight and always leaves the toilet smelling of roses gets pretty close.

If i tell you what i think of Bienji Naesen i'm getting banned.

 

[hrotha]

Idunno, the legions of Benjis out there telling us that Sepp Kuss always kisses his grandma goodnight and always leaves the toilet smelling of roses gets pretty close.

Also, most people here just won't see the majority of the Dutch-language spinning. I haven't been keeping up with the Dutch media but the little I've seen is pretty telling:

Jumbo-Visma is one of the most transparent teams in the peloton and their stance against the use of doping since the post-Rabobank Blanco era is clear. In terms of their scientific approach to diet, altitude camps, materials, training and scouting, they have taken the lead. But even within a team you can't control everything, as demonstrated by the fact that their rider Michel Hessmann recently tested positive for a diuretic.

Het is maar één slechte appel hoor

 

[pastronef]

and also they have a fair antagonist in UAE, which can also turn random domestique in amazing climbers from one day to another (shout out to Mikkel Bjerg)

I reply to this at first: rewatch the Ancizan climb and you see Bjerg just does what a powerful rier with track background does: go all in with big STEADY power. at the top there's a group of 20 riders. he was not turned into a climber, he puts no acceleration or attack. he just lays down the power. "amazing climber" no no no.

 

[pastronef]

one underrated annoying part about the Sky era was how they would roll out some new BS "marginal gain" every couple months. special pillows, warming down, special skinsuits, "reverse periodisation", "functional dehydration", they even ran a feature on US coverage of the TDF years ago where one of the reporters went into the Sky mechanics truck so they could show them how they had a bunch bike chains in bags that were at the perfect wear rate that they claimed saved watts. it was all so nauseating. Jumbo doesn't do any of that crap, they just shut up and dope and race and don't make any excuses.

that's where I somehow claim tha all the old Clinic masters and many on twitter just used the "doping" stick to beat Sky. they didnt care about doping. look, Sky is not winning a,d Digger, Oufeh, MAximus, VAyerism are not interested anymore. yet they used the antidoping stick and claimed THEY were fighting Sky from the web, to defeat doping, tweet by tweet, post by post

 

[pastronef]

It's never so much the weird PR excuses for suspicious performances for me I.E bespoke pillows and paintless tt bikes, they have to say something I suppose. It's how the British People's Front and the People's Front of The Netherlands have deployed language in a way that belittles other teams.

'The others need to step up'

'We just pay more attention to x than the others'

Some teams also seem to have monopolised the arms race in a manner that delineates between the haves and the have nots, there is very little reaction this time within mainstream cycling media other than the token brushed-away question. I didn't hear a single mention of Hessmann's positive, especially within the context of his team occupying all 3 podium spots throughout the entire race.

THIS. THIS. the old anti Sky guard would have gone berzerk, wild as ***, if a SKy did the same

 

[SHAD0W93]

did that actually come from them though? it wasn't very widely reported, or at least i didn't have to constantly hear about it whenever i watched cycling.

and still, everyone hear made fun of it! the same way we would have if Sky said it!

Yes it all did; the low fiber diet to have a clear colon and no added weight, superior cornering, love from his family, no paint on the TT bike, and the zero alcohol during a race.

 

[Rob5091]

It's all down to carbs ... ahhh ... close the Clinic!
https://velo.outsideonline.com/road...ydrate-revolution-is-speeding-up-pro-cycling/
"This season saw 7w/kg become the new norm for grand tour contending climbers. Classics champions pushed 5.5w/kg for hours on end, and wins were forged on 1,200-watt attacks deep into a race’s sixth hour.
From the front to the back of the peloton, riders are now crushing 100-120 grams of carbohydrate per hour. That’s almost twice what they might have managed a decade ago. It’s the carbo-equivalent of a 12 oz can of Coca Cola every 20 minutes, or more than two cups of cooked white rice per hour."

So no longer are teenagers tested for V02 max etc but for how much rice they can eat in an hour?

 

[Rob5091]

So according to Matej Mohoric, it's gone from low carbs to crazy-eat-as-much-as-you-can carbs diet.

https://velo.outsideonline.com/road...-meter-pros-give-their-younger-selves-advice/

All that I know about training and nutrition was done severely wrong, like low-carb diets and all that sort of stuff out of the window. And we basically did everything wrong. I can’t even like, if I have to think now about what we were doing back then. I probably bonked in every single race that I did. Like, if I had 58 days days then I probably bonked 58 occasions, because we were eating… we were told that we were supposed to eat up to 60 grams of carbs per hour. And now in the classics, I go up to 140 grams per hour.

It’s over double the fuel. I still vividly remember a really good one. When I turned professional in my first year, a bottle of maltodextrin would be 30 grams of carbs and I perceived it in my mind that was like a super energy-rich thing, you know, that you would only drink maybe two or three per race if you really needed it. And now we have a bottle with 90 grams of carbs and on a typical Tour de France day, I take like five or six or seven of them. So, things have changed a lot.

 

[Rob5091]

Back to old fashioned dieting in Belgium -

https://www.reuters.com/business/he...-ozempic-weight-loss-until-summer-2023-11-14/

Belgium has decided to temporarily ban the use of Novo Nordisk's diabetes drug Ozempic as a weight loss treatment amid a shortage of the medicine, according to a royal decree published in the country's Official Gazette on Tuesday.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

It's all down to carbs ... ahhh ... close the Clinic!
https://velo.outsideonline.com/road...ydrate-revolution-is-speeding-up-pro-cycling/
"This season saw 7w/kg become the new norm for grand tour contending climbers. Classics champions pushed 5.5w/kg for hours on end, and wins were forged on 1,200-watt attacks deep into a race’s sixth hour.
From the front to the back of the peloton, riders are now crushing 100-120 grams of carbohydrate per hour. That’s almost twice what they might have managed a decade ago. It’s the carbo-equivalent of a 12 oz can of Coca Cola every 20 minutes, or more than two cups of cooked white rice per hour."

So no longer are teenagers tested for V02 max etc but for how much rice they can eat in an hour?

But how can they absorb so much? Any revolutionary diet supplement? There is some limit on how much sugars one can utilize per unit of time so its seems the limit was upped. BTW an increased utilization of sugars will help achieve peak performance at the end of a long race but won't increase peak w/kg values. So it seems there's also something else behind the 2020s peleton speedup.

 

[Izzyeviel]

so, who had lugworms being the new form of EPO?

 

[Tim Cahill]

Actovegin i.e Calf blood is already known to be in use, lugworm seems wild though, who the hell even thinks to try that.

 

[Miss Violet Smith]

so, who had lugworms being the new form of EPO?

That particular thought would not have enter my mind in a million years.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

Well, I expect climbing times to drop off significantly next year...not sure how they'll explain it...bike technology regressing?...aaannnyway, I'm guessing the blood samples being kept around by the anti-doping authorities are causing some sleepless nights.

TJV to disband sometime next year?

"A well-known cyclist contacted me because he wanted some of the product" - the researcher of a special hemoglobin with extraordinary oxygen absorption

The incredible new option to improve performance comes from a marine worm, which has recently been discovered to have extraordinary oxygen absorption capabilities. According to studies carried out by...

cyclinguptodate.com

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

A well-known cyclist, with a foreign name

Ah, that one.