State of Peloton 2023

[SafeBet]

I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever the Quick-Step team supporting Remco Evenepoel in the Giro will be firing on all cylinders.

I have doubts.
Because many of the riders that will support Remco are not performing at a high level since 2022 as well.
Cattaneo is a shade of himself. Masnada went from contesting Monuments to pack fodder.
Hirt is having the kind of season riders used to have after leaving QS, not after joining.

Van Wilder is ok I guess, but hasn't really progressed as much as I thought he would after joining QS (how many riders were still in the main group when he was done working in Catalunya? 20?).

That leaves us with what? Vervaeke? Serry?

 

[Krzysztof_O]

that's like Zomegnan saying the 2008 giro samples did not need to be retested for Cera despite Rico, SELLA, and the gang all coming back with glowing positives. He actually said the peloton was clean in the 2008 giro!

Alberto arrived at the Giro straight from a beach so no wonder that Ricco (riding paniagua ofc) was better in the mountains.

 

[Netserk]

I would argue that the conclusion in the last section ("The data above shows great progress from the beginning of the century until now in the fight against doping in cycling.") is not really backed up by the data. The data shows how much testing is done and which share of the tests is positive, but it does not show at all if this testing is successful with respect to detecting or avoiding doping.

In the first decade of this century, there clearly were significant anti-doping progress. The bio-passport comes from cycling afaik, and I'm not aware of any anti-doping invention from other sports with similar impact.

When the benchmark is other sports, cycling is all in all doing quite well in this regard.

 

[Ilmaestro99]

Masnada went from contesting Monuments to pack fodder.

There is no need to put it so frankly =((((((((((

 

[Fantastico]

In the first decade of this century, there clearly were significant anti-doping progress. The bio-passport comes from cycling afaik, and I'm not aware of any anti-doping invention from other sports with similar impact.

When the benchmark is other sports, cycling is all in all doing quite well in this regard.

Yes, cycling is doing progress in taking anti-doping measures (and doing much more than other sports). But that doesn't mean that it makes progress in actually fighting doping in an effective way as well. Doping programs can also make progress. I'm pretty sure that by now riders and doctors know pretty well how to hide suspicious markers in the bio-passport.

The article does not manage to separate these two aspects.

 

[Danskebjerge]

Yes, cycling is doing progress in taking anti-doping measures (and doing much more than other sports). But that doesn't mean that it makes progress in actually fighting doping in an effective way as well. Doping programs can also make progress. I'm pretty sure that by now riders and doctors know pretty well how to hide suspicious markers in the bio-passport.

I agree. While aerodynamics and other technical aspects have been more professionalized, so too has doping - it's pretty basic.

I also have my doubts about the organizations that are supposed to control doping. Just look at what people are leading FIFA, IOC etc - they often have dubious relations to corrupt regimes and fail to take clear stands on the principles of justice and democracy.

 

[zlev11]

Whether those riders care is immaterial I presume, i.e. team 'preparation' might have declined in quality as a result of different priorities.

so we're in agreement then- they're off the juice.

 

[houtdffan]

Alberto arrived at the Giro straight from a beach so no wonder that Ricco (riding paniagua ofc) was better in the mountains.

the beach in Madrid, lol

That giro was a throw back to the anything goes 1990s. At least many mountain stages that year did not wait for the final climb to get it on

Makes me think maybe those should be the rules. The racing is far more entertaining

 

[Krzysztof_O]

the beach in Madrid, lol

That giro was a throw back to the anything goes 1990s. At least many mountain stages that year did not wait for the final climb to get it on

Makes me think maybe those should be the rules. The racing is far more entertaining

We shouldn't complain either watching showdowns like Granon or Hautacam stages at the Tour, duels of big stars on Flandrien cobbles, Evenepoel's or Pog's solos etc.

 

[houtdffan]

We shouldn't complain either watching showdowns like Granon or Hautacam stages at the Tour, duels of big stars on Flandrien cobbles, Evenepoel's or Pog's solos etc.

Yep. 50 years from now, these may be seen as the golden days. If the UCI has quietly went back to the 1990s or the2008 giro to make that happen, then good for them.

Just don't allow Rasmussen and his injecting cow blood from 2007. That's IMO, where the line should be drawn

 

[Rackham]

Yep. 50 years from now, these may be seen as the golden days. If the UCI has quietly went back to the 1990s or the2008 giro to make that happen, then good for them.

Just don't allow Rasmussen and his injecting cow blood from 2007. That's IMO, where the line should be drawn

That's indeed extreme.

For me one of the biggest gross-outs was the method Festina used to dodge positive urine drug tests in the 1990's which Willy Voet once described, i.e. borderline r-rated teen comedy stuff: fill a condom with a clean urine sample, attach a rubber tube, shove the condom in the rider's backside & then mask the tube so when it came to the tester taking the rider's urine sample, they simply squirted from the rubber tube without the tester noticing. Easy peasy lemon squeezy.

Now enjoy your breakfast.

 

[Salvarani]

That's indeed extreme.

For me one of the biggest gross-outs was the method Festina used to dodge positive urine drug tests in the 1990's which Willy Voet once described, i.e. borderline r-rated teen comedy stuff: fill a condom with a clean urine sample, attach a rubber tube, shove the condom in the rider's backside & then mask the tube so when it came to the tester taking the rider's urine sample, they simply squirted from the rubber tube without the tester noticing. Easy peasy lemon squeezy.

Now enjoy your breakfast.

Like the episode from Entourage where Vince has to piss from a fake penis (rubber), filled with clean piss, to pass a drug test for an upcoming movie. Because he had smoked a joint after getting out of rehab and the director demanded he took a drug test, before giving him the role.

 

[BR2]

Yep. 50 years from now, these may be seen as the golden days. If the UCI has quietly went back to the 1990s or the2008 giro to make that happen, then good for them.

Just don't allow Rasmussen and his injecting cow blood from 2007. That's IMO, where the line should be drawn

I would prefer the line to be drawn earlier.

 

[masking_agent]

It is clear from the Ronde that Podagar has the best most undetectable peds , the best doctors advising him along with maybe a new form of blood bag. At his rate of winning I can only hope we get some journalist to start digging like David Walsh ? But these GCN, and Eurosport goofs are so gullible for the "not normal" and the "show" of the sport that I think this is it for the next decade

 

[pastronef]

But these GCN, and Eurosport goofs are so gullible

tell me what a TV commentators should say without proof. I mean, how can we expect them to call out athletes? I mean, antidoping is not that. throwing accusations is already done on here and twitter. a tv commentators calls the race and the action. you can't expect them to say "wtf look at Pogacar distancing VDP, he's surely charged" (ok, I'm exaggerating) but really, the tv guys comment the race and what happens in the race. the antidoping authorities will take care on the antidoping matters.

 

[masking_agent]

tell me what a TV commentators should say without proof. I mean, how can we expect them to call out athletes? I mean, antidoping is not that. throwing accusations is already done on here and twitter. a tv commentators calls the race and the action. you can't expect them to say "wtf look at Pogacar distancing VDP, he's surely charged" (ok, I'm exaggerating) but really, the tv guys comment the race and what happens in the race. the antidoping authorities will take care on the antidoping matters.

why can't get they grow some balls and say that does not look like a normal effort ? but they won't because they fear being cancelled..

 

[Bolder]

why can't get they grow some balls and say that does not look like a normal effort ? but they won't because they fear being cancelled..

It’s called libel, that’s why.

 

[pastronef]

why can't get they grow some balls and say that does not look like a normal effort ? but they won't because they fear being cancelled..

because it works this way: you cannot gratuitously accuse or hint about somebody without proof, otherwise it would be slander. and there's people on the web just waiting for them to say anything to begin their speculations, conspiracies and so on. a tv-channel cannot afford that. the simple tv viewer can have all ideas and say whatever they want. these people doing their job are there to call the race, not to please or displease this or that fan, calling a rider suspicious, making some fans happy and some others angry.

 

[Mayomaniac]

because it works this way: you cannot gratuitously accuse or hint about somebody without proof, otherwise it would be slander. and there's people on the web just waiting for them to say anything to begin their speculations, conspiracies and so on. a tv-channel cannot afford that. the simple tv viewer can have all ideas and say whatever they want. these people doing their job are there to call the race, not to please or displease this or that fan, calling a rider suspicious, making some fans happy and some others angry.

This.
I do have to say that I find the mindless cheerleading for the new era annoying, a more reserved approach would be better.

 

[Red Rick]

Wait you cannot, in cycling, express a sensible amount of scepticism without it being libellous?

 

[pastronef]

if you're a tv commentator calling a race probably there's a line you can't step over cause your employer will not like it. especially now in the internet era

 

[hrotha]

The "they can't hint at anything because of [specifically British] libel laws" thing would be a lot more convincing if the media was simply silent instead of actively peddling the kool-aid

 

[Netserk]

Wait you cannot, in cycling, express a sensible amount of scepticism without it being libellous?

A whole lot of scepticism has been expressed in the past. I doubt the legal situation was radically different then.

I would prefer if the commentators mostly refrained from any speculation about doping. Including any speculation or proclamation of riders being clean. Discuss facts, comment on the race you see unfold.

 

[Red Rick]

The "they can't hint at anything because of [specifically British] libel laws" thing would be a lot more convincing if the media was simply silent instead of actively peddling the kool-aid

A whole lot of scepticism has been expressed in the past. I doubt the legal situation was radically different then.

I would prefer if the commentators mostly refrained from any speculation about doping. Including any speculation or proclamation of riders being clean. Discuss facts, comment on the race you see unfold.

Yeah it's definitely more a PR and omerta thing any legal thing. Most pundits are ex riders, or journalists that have been in cycling for decades. They all know the way the wind is blowing. They only go after riders or teams once it becomes 'popular' to do so. That's why there's always complaints about Vino being a team manager while there's complete and utter silence about Gianetti.

 

[pastronef]

here in Italy they don't complain for neither Vino nor Gianetti