State of the Peloton 2024

[Krzysztof_O]

PdB climb is defining not only for this generation of riders but also for the whole cycling history. So far most thought our heroes are still somewhat below top-fuel dragsters of the EPO era (Pantani, Riis) but it's the opposite.

It was the mutants battle at its scariest. After a huge pull by Jorgenson Grischa must have said the password Show the world who's the strongest and Skeletor performed one of the most powerful sustained attacks ever seen. But instead of roasting his rival he set up a perfect pace for him. As a result, Teddy upped the radiation level even more and dropped his nemezis for good (imagine Grischa's face then!) producing the greatest long-climb performance in cycling history.

It was a great team time trial by our heroes (the version in which everyone has his own time), no negative split etc. But despite a perfect pacing nobody thought such a tempo can be sustained for so long! Even 20 minutes (half of PdB) of this intensity is a great performance but this was something else...

 

[Forever The Best]

Alpe d'Huez and Hautacam to become no go zones?

Meh, don't like traditional Alpe d'Huez as a stage finish much anyways. Telegraphe-Galibier-Sarenne-Alpe or Alpe-Les Deux Alpes are better anyways.

Hautacam on the other hand I like as it is well connected with Spandelles leading to a Aubisque-Spandelles-Hautacam chain (which was great in 2022)

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Alpe d'Huez and Hautacam to become no go zones?

Simply put them into one stage, cause then there will (should) be no way they have the power to break the records.

 

[Forever The Best]

Stumbled to this on the internet, some noises from a former pro in Bouhanni (although it requires subscription to read the full article, but I got the gist from the title and first paragraph despite not having subscription): https://www.leparisien.fr/sports/cy...nce-15-07-2024-DY62C5AIFREYBLRWEGA7IQB2NQ.php

 

[46&twoWheels]

1. 2024: 39:50 Tadej Pogacar 23.95 km/h
2. 2024: 40:58 Jonas Vingegaard 23.29 km/h
3. 2024: 42:41 Remco Evenepoel 22.35 km/h
4. 1998: 43:20 Marco Pantani 21.88 km/h
5. 2024: 43:44 Mikel Landa 21.81 km/h
6. 2007: 44:08 Alberto Contador 21.62 km/h
7. 2007: 44:08 Michael Rasmussen 21.62 km/h
8. 1998: 44:26 Jan Ullrich 21.34 km/h
9. 2024: 44:33 Joao Almeida 21.41 km/h
10. 2007: 44:45 Mauricio Soler 21.32 km/h
11. 2024: 44:46 Adam Yates 21.31 km/h
12. 2007: 44:48 Levi Leipheimer 21.29 km/h
13. 1998: 44:53 Bobby Julich 21.12 km/h
14. 1998: 44:53 Michael Boogerd 21.12 km/h
15. 1998: 44:53 Leonardo Piepoli 21.12 km/h
16. 1998: 44:53 Fernando Escartin 21.12 km/h
17. 1998: 44:53 Christophe Rinero 21.12 km/h
18. 2024: 44:58 Santiago Buitrago 21.22 km/h
19. 2024: 44:58 Carlos Rodriguez 21.22 km/h
20. 2007: 45:01 Carlos Sastre 21.19 km/h
21. 1998: 45:21 Kevin Livingston 20.90 km/h
22. 1998: 45:23 Angel Casero 20.89 km/h
23. 1998: 45:23 Laurent Jalabert 20.89 km/h
24. 1998: 45:23 Manuel Beltran 20.89 km/h
25. 2004: 45:31 Lance Armstrong 20.96 km/h
26. 2004: 45:31 Ivan Basso 20.96 km/h
27. 2015: 45:30 Alejandro Valverde 20.97 km/h
28. 2015: 45:31 Christopher Froome 20.96 km/h
29. 2015: 45:31 Nairo Quintana 20.96 km/h
30. 2015: 45:31 Thibaut Pinot 20.96 km/h
31. 2015: 45:31 Tejay Van Garderen 20.96 km/h
32. 2015: 45:31 Alberto Contador 20.96 km/h
33. 2015: 45:31 Pierre Rolland 20.96 km/h
34. 2015: 45:31 Vincenzo Nibali 20.96 km/h
35. 2015: 45:31 Geraint Thomas 20.96 km/h
36. 2024: 45:47 Felix Gall 20.84 km/h
37. 2002: 45:55 Lance Armstrong 20.78 km/h
38. 2007: 46:00 Andreas Klöden 20.74 km/h
39. 2007: 46:00 Cadel Evans 20.74 km/h
40. 1998: 46:13 Dariusz Baranowski 20.51 km/h
41. 1998: 46:13 Marcos Serrano 20.51 km/h
42. 1998: 46:13 Luc Leblanc 20.51 km/h
43. 1998: 46:18 Giuseppe Di Grande 20.48 km/h
44. 1998: 46:18 Laurent Madouas 20.48 km/h
45. 2024: 46:19 Derek Gee 20.60 km/h
46. 2024: 46:19 Giulio Ciccone 20.60 km/h
47. 2011: 46:20 Jelle Vanendert 20.59 km/h
48. 2015: 46:27 Robert Gesink 20.54 km/h
49. 2015: 46:27 Bauke Mollema 20.54 km/h
50. 2007: 46:31 Andrey Kashechkin 20.51 km/h

all the way down to Piti-Froome-Nibs-Geraint group of 2015 for the first human performances?? I don't want to crown Mollema tbh

 

[Penninepeddler]

Stumbled to this on the internet, some noises from a former pro in Bouhanni (although it requires subscription to read the full article, but I got the gist from the title and first paragraph despite not having subscription): https://www.leparisien.fr/sports/cy...nce-15-07-2024-DY62C5AIFREYBLRWEGA7IQB2NQ.php

One of the snippets:

"There are a lot of people who don't say anything because they have direct or indirect interests in the Tour.

And I find it more and more difficult to hear people on TV preaching the good word, saying what is right or wrong when they have been deceitful in the past. Hearing them rave about certain things is unbearable.

And when we ask them certain questions, they adopt the policy of burying their heads in the sand."

 

[Rob5091]

Teddy & Vingegaard say, nothing to see hear, or the old Sergeant Schultz excuse,
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/i-...e-question-on-carbon-monoxide-rebreather-use/

On Monday, Jonas Vingegaard confirmed carbon monoxide rebreathers use in his team in an interview with the Danish newspaper Politiken, saying, “There is nothing suspicious about it.”

Pogačar himself brushed off the question when asked if he had heard of the rebreathers and if he had used them in a post-stage press conference on stage 16.

“When I heard this, I was thinking about the car exhaust, I don’t know. I don’t know about that much, so I have no comment [behind]. I don’t know what it is. I was always thinking about what goes out from the exhaust of a car,” Pogačar told reporters, adding laconically: “Maybe I’m just uneducated.”

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Teddy & Vingegaard say, nothing to see hear, or the old Sergeant Schultz excuse,
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/i-...e-question-on-carbon-monoxide-rebreather-use/

Now that Pogačar has learned about, he will become even stronger.

 

[Rackham]

Now that Pogačar has learned about, he will become even stronger.

So next time we see a pro-cyclist sitting in his car with the engine running & a hose leading from the exhaust into the car, do we just walk on by?

Nothing to see here folks, i.e. don't call an ambulance or the fire service, it's just the TdF champ training for July.

 

[Monoxidator]

So laughable. If Niels Pollitt is the next Nathan maybe that will wake them up?

 

[Rob5091]

No awkward questions no, but there was one ex-cyclist at least taking the piss

https://twitter.com/x/status/1812751161826455723

Ok Now, it's not good to be a sprinter on the TDF. Pantani… I no longer understand anything about cycling, courage to the survivors for the next few days #delai

Nacer Bouhanni: "I find it more and more difficult to hear people on TV preaching the good word, saying what is right or wrong when they have a deceitful past. Hearing them go into ecstasies over certain things are unbearable to hear"

I don't have an subscription myself, perhaps someone can post it here as it's behind a paywall

« Je ne comprends pas comment c’est possible » : Nacer Bouhanni doute des performances sur le Tour de France

L’ancien sprinteur avoue son incompréhension devant les records de vitesse répétés chaque jour par les meilleurs dans les ascensions. Et il

www.leparisien.fr

Always rated him myself. Bruiser Bouhanni. One of the good ones, who would've thought it.

Johannessen says,"When those two guys went past, it’s like I don’t do the same sport as them" and Bouhanni says, "I no longer understand anything about cycling." This is not guys upset about losing a race, but statements of disbelief of the state of racing.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

So next time we see a pro-cyclist sitting in his car with the engine running & a hose leading from the exhaust into the car, do we just walk on by?

Nothing to see here folks, i.e. don't call an ambulance or the fire service, it's just the TdF champ training for July.

You make it sound like you've already experienced that in the past.

Riders have been accused of switching bikes in order to get one with a motor ahead of a climb or sprint finish, but perhaps it was actually just an opportunity for them to get fresh fumes from the team car.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Pogacar is always snorting motor exhaust for the double whammy of drafting and carbon monoxide.

Could be, but he would have to actually breathe to do that. I also doubt he was snorting stuff from Vingegaard's ass for 5 km on Plateau de Beille, but who really knows how anything works these days?

 

[QueenStagiaire]

So next time we see a pro-cyclist sitting in his car with the engine running & a hose leading from the exhaust into the car, do we just walk on by?

Nothing to see here folks, i.e. don't call an ambulance or the fire service, it's just the TdF champ training for July.

Yeah, the last five times this exact thing happened to me, I called an ambulance, but now I‘m not so sure anymore.

 

[Rackham]

You make it sound like you've already experienced that in the past.

Riders have been accused of switching bikes in order to get one with a motor ahead of a climb or sprint finish, but perhaps it was actually just an opportunity for them to get fresh fumes from the team car.

No, although I haven't checked the car park on Mount Teide so I wouldn't know how common it really is.

 

[Ripper]

Teddy & Vingegaard say, nothing to see hear, or the old Sergeant Schultz excuse,
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/i-...e-question-on-carbon-monoxide-rebreather-use/

Pogo's response seems more than a little bit disingenuous given the team uses the device

 

[E_F_]

Pogo's response seems more than a little bit disingenuous given the team uses the device

The guy who said there couldn't possibly be motor-doping because we can see how big e-bikes are, yet later in the same interview commented on how the rumours about it has gone away..?

 

[Barnacle Bill]

Pogo's response seems more than a little bit disingenuous given the team uses the device

Yes, I'm not surprised the team clarified things soon afterwards, it's not a great look having a team leader stating he's "uneducated" on what's going into his body and the story had been doing the rounds for days, the question was always going to come up - either they didn't do their job in terms of prepping Pogi or they decided on the wrong response. In terms of communication the team would surely have been better off doing what Visma did and just being open about it from the first questions.

Leaders scrutinised as carbon monoxide tests unsettle Tour de France

Teams of Tadej Pogacar and Jonas Vingegaard use ‘rebreathing’ technique to measure effects of altitude training but Dane says there is ‘nothing suspicious’ about it

www.thetimes.com

After being asked a gentle first question at his daily post-race press conference, Pogacar faced a more difficult query. “Tadej, yesterday Jonas [Vingegaard] was asked about the carbon monoxide rebreathing technique, are you familiar with this? Have you ever used it?”

“I heard this, I was thinking about car exhausts, I don’t know. I don’t know much about it. I have no comment on it. I don’t know what it is. I was always thinking it is what goes out of the exhaust of the car. Maybe I am just uneducated.”

Perhaps. Soon after, Pogacar’s UAE team, responding to a question from The Times, said the team does in fact use carbon monoxide rebreathing to measure haemoglobin mass and that this technique has been used in altitude training and research for more than 20 years. “It is a well established, safe, professional method that is backed by a very large amount of research,” the team said in a statement. “It is used widely by athletes, climbers and other persons who are exposed to altitude for professional sports or other physical activities.”

The team pointed out the carbon monoxide test is the only means of accurately measuring haemoglobin mass and this allows the team to assess how their athletes are responding to altitude training. The test is carried out by Dr Irina Zelenkova from the University of Zaragoza, an expert in this field. According to the team, the test is done on every rider at the beginning and end of each block of altitude training.

Using carbon monoxide to measure haemoglobin mass is not banned and is not considered doping. However, it is a poisonous gas and using it, even under the strictest medical control, on healthy young athletes is going to be considered controversial by some. The issue has arisen following the publication of an investigation into the use of carbon monoxide rebreathing and the potential abuse of carbon monoxide exhalation by a US-based cycling website Escape Collective.

According to the Escape piece, UAE Team Emirates, Visma-Lease a Bike and Israel-Premier Tech all do carbon monoxide rebreathing tests to measure haemoglobin. Other teams don’t. “It’s not something we have ever done or would do,” Jonathan Vaughters, chief executive of the EF Education First-Easy Post team, said. “I don’t see how knowing haemoglobin mass is going to be that valuable.”

The danger is that if the Detalo Blood Volume Analyser or any similar device falls into the hands of the unscrupulous, it could be used for carbon monoxide inhalation, leading to hypoxia and the body’s natural response to this would be to create more red cells. “There is no hard evidence that WorldTeams are using CO inhalation for performance enhancement,” Ronan McLaughlin wrote in his piece for Escape Collective. “But their exploration of the technique alone makes it more likely that someone else will cross that line, and both scientists and team officials Escape spoke with voiced concern about the potential for abuse.

 

[NFTtiddies]

Riders: "We're on drugs"
Fans: "Noo, you can't be on drugs, think of all the advances in nutrition and training and in bike tech!!!"

 

[Slavique Nuke]

All the nonsense about carbon monoxide rebreathers has been picked up by that clickbait website. It does not seem to be anything new. There were already articles in the Danish media early last year about Vingegaard working with the co-founder of Detalo and they were in an altitude training camp together - https://www.seoghoer.dk/sport/forsk...ards-krop-ved-endnu-ikke-om-det-har-en-effekt

And Detalo website lists the Norwegian Olympic Committee with whom they work. So I guess the device has been used in many sports for a long time.

 

[perico]

how do you explain how much faster they were than 2007 then? Contador and Rasmussen are two of the best climbers of their generation and we know for a fact those riders were blood doping, with no biopassport limitations.

Contador and Rasmussen WERE the 2 best of their generation.

Did you watch the actual race when it happened? They were stop/start accelerations all the way up the mountain. Alberto would attack, Rasmussen would pull him back in. They would basically stop, and do it all over again.

 

[Ripper]

I love it.

The times are way faster. Counter arguments about technology increasing speeds, making drafting more of an effect, compounding the whole thing. There is logic in this and it does make a difference, although how much is debatable.

Then we have riders saying they are doing their best numbers ever and suggesting that the estimates of W/Kg are pretty accurate. Oh, but the nutrition and modern training techniques! Again, there is logic in these arguments, although again the degree of impact is debatable

Where there is smoke there is fire folks. It is the accumulation of all these things that makes for more than just a little suspicious goings on.

And the ridiculous accelerations when already going hard is just amusement park territory.

For a fun experiment, which just gets more entertaining the higher up the hierarchy you go, apply 7 w/kg to your own body weight and think about how long you could hold that level of power for. 😆😆😆 (and yes, obviously being a professional at athlete puts you far far above the normal person's capacities)

 

[zlev11]

Contador and Rasmussen WERE the 2 best of their generation.

Did you watch the actual race when it happened? They were stop/start accelerations all the way up the mountain. Alberto would attack, Rasmussen would pull him back in. They would basically stop, and do it all over again.

yes i've watched that stage plenty of times, it's one of my favorite stages to watch. it's not as start/stop as you remember it. rabobank and popovych kept doing tempo on the front once it regrouped, then the last 5k are basically flat out.

 

[Andon]

The gap between #1 and #4 is now at 12min 57secs. After this weeks mutant championships are over, that's going to be at 18+ minutes, possibly over 20 mins.

I went through wikipedia for all tours from 1990 onwards and this actually never happened at this scale in the "modern times" or since EPO or whatever you want to call it. Biggest gap between #1 and #4 that I found was 1997 tour (#1 Ulrich, #4 Olano at 15mins55secs back).

 

[Mayomaniac]

I think teams nowadays are way more secretive in the way that they don't want the secret to get out when a rider leaves. I doubt most of the riders, even top names, are told even half the truth about the dosages and synergies of the stuff that they are taking.

A few teams still being so far ahead of the curve makes little sense otherwise. If it was just expensive as hell Ineos wouldn't be that far behind in the arms race.

Better to break the bank to poach team doctors than riders from those teams...