State of the Peloton 2024

[Samu Cuenca]

Ah, I didn't know about the crash since I only followed a few stages last year. Was aware of the stage win, but not why he faded later on. Thanks.

It's quite likely he wouldn't have finished on the podium anyway, since other riders looked stronger in the third week, but it definitely didn't help his chances either.

 

[Valv.Piti]

I think he would have finished 3rd. I also believe C-Rod would have finished 3rd if he didn't crash as well, but thats just specluation. I think chances are those two would be a tad stronger than Yates.

Anyways, yesterday was also quite telling in that Ineos was completely blown away. Pidcock is sick, but wouldn't have done a thing, Bernal is apparantly pushing TdF winner numbers and stand no chance (well, I don't believe he does this race, but I do believe his level generally is as good as 2019), their whole team was basically gone. Only De Plus was quite good, C-Rod was isolated and wasn't great either. They are just completely overmatched

 

[Forever The Best]

When I have more time, I will discuss what happened yesterday, but for now, I want to say that unfortunately, it is almost certain that this sport will soon go to the bottom like it happened 20/15 years ago.

I always said that I didn't care about doping, as long as it didn't reach scandalous proportions and there wasn't so much disparity in usage between the best teams, but that has clearly stopped happening.

Going from 6.2 w/kg to almost 7 w/kg in 1 year or 2 is too much....I saw this movie happen years ago, and it didn't end well for this sport.

They got me, i didn't expected this. It would be easy to say that Visma needs to have to reduce the gap to Emirates and increase the budget to win this war, to improve his programm to Vingegaard plus he can benefit more of them without the injurie, but it would be hypocrite, because this will end really bad, very soon.

I think UCI and anti-doping organizations learned from their actions in the past that decreased the popularity in the past (that almost killed the sport in some countries). In the past cycling was the laughing stock of casuals with all the doping cases. Cycling is currently very popular with Netflix and all, why try to change that? I don't expect some major rider testing positive or a Operacion Puerto like doping scandal in the future.

 

[Rackham]

Exclusive: Tour riders are inhaling carbon monoxide to optimise altitude training

Top teams Visma and UAE confirm they have access to specialized equipment for testing, but deny using the potentially powerful new method for performance enhancement.

escapecollective.com

 

[Salvarani]

My gut feeling is that a far lower percentage of the peloton is doped than 10-15 years ago...

probably partially because of the back-lash meaning more guys than before would just say no, especially if they already have contracts for multiple years and perform at an okay level.

But whatever has happened in the last ~3-4 years? I find it pretty inconceivable that a decent %, including most of the top GC guys, are pushing the limits of what is legal, and stepping over those limits.

Dumoulin, Pinot and Bardet are the same age as Landa. Their performances over the last ~5 years (pre-retirement for Dumoulin and Pinot) from what should have been their "peak" at say age ~24-27? Yeh, they either got worse or stagnated. As human physiology says they should have.

Yet Landa (their peer who at age ~24-30 was a very similar level rider overall to those 3) is now putting up numbers that would have made him DOMINANT from 2014-2020... a time when he generally was fighting for podiums.

I think most of the pro peloton are doped, just to manage both the training load and the racing load.

I bet most riders in the TdF are doing something. Just to be able get up and ride every day.

Then you have the talent aspects that comes with physiology and genes... then you add being a high responder to it.

Dumo and Pinot both stagnated. They lost it both physically and mentally. While they probably werent no angels either.

Bardet has had a great season this year.

Landa been great for the past few years and now climbing as good as Pantani.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

i dont know anymore what's more incredible

- Vingegaard returning from a heavy crash putting out by far his best numbers ever like it never happened
- Pogacar going even 0.1 w/kg better than that.
- Evenepoel also casually destroying Pantani record in the background

What the ***. They are going 10%+ faster than Armstrong times. Hilarious.

 

[Savant12]

Whats more indredible is fans eating this *** up

I'm just here for the memes and comments. It's a real spectacle for sure. Doping has never ever gone away.

 

[Rackham]

I'm happy to be an old curmudgeon on this topic.

I was a kid in the 1990's. Been there, done that. Superpowers & comic book heroes aren't only retro but they're also totally impossible. The speeds these guys are doing on these HC climbs after a 200km multi col stage are a literal joke. It's delirious. There's no excuse, none. The only bike technology which permits that sort of increase is a freaking e-bike. Anyone trying to explain this stuff as 'normal' is out of their mind. It's impossible.

But when I look at all the ex riders who're consultants on TV (dopers) or the 'experts' in the media covering this sport, everyone has a vested interest in maintaining the status quo.

Money money money. That's what it's all about. It's what it was all about 20 years ago as well.

 

[Ilmaestro99]

Take me back to sagan, Alaphilippe and kwiatoski on the poggio. Stannard vs terprstrA in the rain. Pinot vs Nibali on civiglio.

These days I am embarrassed to be fan of the sport. July is my least favourite month

 

[Ripper]

So the theory is that only some teams have access to this Carbon Monoxide breathing stuff (or are willing to take the risk)? But indeed, the 3 teams mentioned - UAE and Visma for sure but also Gee on Israel (for his size) give outstanding performances. And French are totally blindsided by it?

Could be but also hard to tell. But indeed, I wonder as well for the rapid downfalls of certain riders that theoretically are at the best age and more or less are in the same form as in their peak result years but suddenly can't follow anymore. Why don't they profit from "better training, material, and nutrition"?

With the CO piece, I'm not sure if I read it correctly. It looks like both IPT and VLAB made statements about using it for assessment only, but did UAE make any comment?

 

[Penninepeddler]

Tadej Pogacar (age 25, 2024): 39:41

an entire 15% better than...

Thibault Pinot (age 25, 2015): 45:38

who was 20% better than...

John Degenkolb (age 35, 2024): 54:54

Who was probably not going full gas...

Seems about right. Yeh. Pinot is pretty much equidistant from Pogacar and Degenkolb as a climber.

(ofc, there are definitely some gains to be had between 2015 and present in terms of bike tech. BUT the place where that bike tech impacts least is on climbs)

 

[Ripper]

Take me back to sagan, Alaphilippe and kwiatoski on the poggio. Stannard vs terprstrA in the rain. Pinot vs Nibali on civiglio.

These days I am embarrassed to be fan of the sport. July is my least favourite month

The 2019 Tour de France is looking pretty clean-ish compared to now.

 

[Rico044]

The 2019 Tour de France is looking pretty clean-ish compared to now.

The freaking 2004 tour looks clean compared to this! I don't understand how they are SMASHING records set by riders pre-epo test. Meaning these previous record holders almost certainly had hcts right around 50%. Sure....bike tech and nutrition are better, but that doesn't come close to explaining the performances on these steep climbs. Either its mechanical (god forbid) or they are racing with hcts near 50 along with some other form of enhancement (something at the mitochondria level?).

 

[Rob5091]

As CN and I have written before this feels like 1999 and "Tour of Renewal" all over again. Everybody's clean and winning by staying at altitiude for 3 weeks. BS! If Vingegaard had not crashed at Itzulia think of what we might have been witness to.

 

[Penninepeddler]

As CN and I have written before this feels like 1999 and "Tour of Renewal" all over again. Everybody's clean and winning by staying at altitiude for 3 weeks. BS! If Vingegaard had not crashed at Itzulia think of what we might have been witness to.

Serge Pauwels yesterday said, with a straight face:

"The 90s, that was the era of super fuel. That has been replaced by altitude training."

Lmfao. Yeh, altitude training definitely gives the same/better results as EPO... not like altitude training has been around in pro sports for 30 years now.

 

[zlev11]

Maybe these types of performances will cause race organizers to use some unknown climbs in the future? Because I think Alpe d'Huez and Ventoux may be no go zones after this. (Although yesterday already tells the story given that Plateau de Beille was a commonly used climb in the past)

I was thinking about this last night. what will happen when someone obliterates the Alpe d'Huez record? a climb with years and years of history through all different doping eras. the media wont be able to shove it under the rug as easily as they have with these performances so far.

 

[zlev11]

Pantani didn’t attack the climb the way they did yesterday. Yesterday’s gap to Pantani was larger than the one Pantani had to super climber Bobby Julich in 1998 at 1:30.

how do you explain how much faster they were than 2007 then? Contador and Rasmussen are two of the best climbers of their generation and we know for a fact those riders were blood doping, with no biopassport limitations.

 

[Ilmaestro99]

"The 90s, that was the era of super fuel. That has been replaced by altitude training."

Lmfao. Yeh, altitude training definitely gives the same/better results as EPO... not like altitude training has been around in pro sports for 30 years now

Yes. Guess who it was who started doing the training camps at the hotel on Teide. And guess which decade

 

[Rackham]

Serge Pauwels yesterday said, with a straight face:

"The 90s, that was the era of super fuel. That has been replaced by altitude training."

Lmfao. Yeh, altitude training definitely gives the same/better results as EPO... not like altitude training has been around in pro sports for 30 years now.

The French football team 'prepared' for the 1998 World Cup in Tignes.

That's with all their Juventus players (Deschamps, Zidane) & others who played in Italy who were well versed in PED culture.

Pauwels is clearly happy with the scraps he's getting right now (his wage, basically) & the omerta reigns supreme.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Yes. Guess who it was who started doing the training camps at the hotel on Teide. And guess which decade

Was it me?

Or actually I didn't visit Teide when I went to Tenerife. Guess I dodged a bullet there, since it could have been like going to Chernobyl in late April 1986.

 

[zlev11]

the outcry will never come from the media. there are no Paul Kimmage's anymore, they have all been carefully removed from the cycling media. now everyone is a cheerleader with skin in the game (their own jobs). the outcry will have to come from inside the peloton, either someone speaking up and revealing what is going on, or someone going to the authorities behind the scenes.

 

[Monoxidator]

Imagine if instead of traditional "altitude training" you could dose a poisonous gas in a precisely controlled way to progressively stress the body in the same way altitude training does. Instead of hoping for the best at 1800 meters, you could modulate the effects, accumulate them and progressively overload the system until the adaptations are beyond even what dosing with EPO could do.

The hemoglobin in the blood increases, but slowly and consistently in such a way that doesn't trigger any crazy alarms. There's plausible deniability of "altitude training"... it's the perfect way around the system.

Of course there's the dark side of the whole situation when all of a sudden guys start getting heart attacks in their late 20's because their blood is thicker than honey. Or a kid trying to turn pro hears about it and has to go to hospital or dies due to not having the budget and controls of a big team.

 

[Slavique Nuke]

It's getting quite comical that guys keep comparing Pantani's record to yesterday. All you have to do is use your brain and open the video of the 1998 stage on one of the video sharing sites.

Look how they were racing there before Pantani's attack, like a big herd of cows.

Compare this to yesterday's stage. It's like a completely different sport. Where Jorgenson drilled in front completely from the start of the climb until only the very few best were left and then for many kilometres Vingegaard paced at maximum. The two efforts are not even comparable as Pantani attacked alone. Yesterday's record was a once in a lifetime situation. It's hard to imagine again a race situation where Vingegaard paces Pogacar for more than 5 kilometres with maximum effort. Or vice versa.

 

[zlev11]

there's always one

 

[Monoxidator]

LOL