State of the Peloton 2024

[Rob5091]

Pogi Porridge (tm) "The Breakfast of Champions" and tyres ...
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/th...ition-at-tour-de-france-after-record-display/

"For example, six years ago, when I started, it was a lot about carbohydrates, we had white pasta, white rice and maybe omelette for breakfast," he said. "Now we have more normal breakfast, like rice porridge, oatmeal, pancakes, bread. I think this little thing already makes a difference.

"The bikes are also so much faster, especially the tyres. The tyres make the biggest difference from what we had six years ago or 10 years ago, and the wheels, aerodynamics, frames, it's just amazing how different the bike is now."

Not only at the Tour ...

The first three riders on the stage all finished inside Pantani's 1998 time, after all, while this season alone has seen record-setting average speeds at six Classics, including Milan-San Remo, the Tour of Flanders and Paris-Roubaix.

 

[FroomeWagon]

the outcry will never come from the media. there are no Paul Kimmage's anymore, they have all been carefully removed from the cycling media. now everyone is a cheerleader with skin in the game (their own jobs). the outcry will have to come from inside the peloton, either someone speaking up and revealing what is going on, or someone going to the authorities behind the scenes.

I think riders (and their handlers) have also learned not to be an ass about winning (aka Armstrong). In general, fans enjoy Pogi, Vingo, and Remco and consequently they will be able to continue doing what they are doing unless they start acting like jerks. Pogi shaking Vingo's hand (Stage 11) when Vingo beat him or Remco congratulating Pogi yesterday during the warm down makes it a lot harder to dislike these guys.

Just don't piss off the French public by rubbing their face in it and everyone will probably be ok.

 

[Mayomaniac]

This is why we can't have nice things, as soon as they relax a bit about Antidoping the same old guys from back in the day (who are now/still running teams) take it too far.
The only way this arms race ends is big police raids or if people start dropping dead because they took it too far.

 

[Valv.Piti]

there's always one

Its a good point. Yesterday was an absolutely perfect situation for a record setting time and a scenario you'd rarely ever see on such a climb in TdF.

Not saying there's no doping, but what he's saying is obviously correct. I think posters in the clinic generally have to not just scream doping at everything without ALSO factoring in the specific racing situation that led to this performance. The pacing from bottom to the top was absolutely perfect and was in essence a TTT - 5 km of Jorgenson, Vingegaard and Pog each going all out in all of the intervals being at front.

It is different to 1998. Pantani WOULD have gone significantly faster if the raced played out the same way it did in 1998 from bottom to top. How many seconds or minutes? I don't know, but it was obviously advantage Pog. Just as you really can't compare it to the stop and go racing which happened in 2007 and especially 2011 and 2015. MR and Contador could also have gone significantly faster (not close to Pog, mind) had they raced like yesterday.

 

[zlev11]

Its a good point. Yesterday was an absolutely perfect situation for a record setting time and a scenario you'd rarely ever see on such a climb in TdF.

Not saying there's no doping, but what he's saying is obviously correct. I think posters in the clinic generally have to not just scream doping at everything without ALSO factoring in the specific racing situation that led to this performance. The pacing from bottom to the top was absolutely perfect and was in essence a TTT - 5 km of Jorgenson, Vingegaard and Pog each going all out in all of the intervals being at front.

It is different to 1998. Pantani WOULD have gone significantly faster if the raced played out the same way it did in 1998 from bottom to top.

Pantani went all out from like 11k to go. this argument might hold water if the gap was 20-30 seconds but he crushed it by FOUR MINUTES. the whole previous part of the stage was ridden extremely hard too.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Pantani went all out from like 11k to go. this argument might hold water if the gap was 20-30 seconds but he crushed it by FOUR MINUTES. the whole previous part of the stage was ridden extremely hard too.

I say the pacing CONTRIBUTED to the difference, not that it is all the difference ofc. Thats should be very clear if you chose to read my post. How much time? We simply don't know, but its incredibly disingenious just to shrug it off. Thats not how it works, and you can definitely do better than that. Every racing situation is different, but find to riders that can pace you to 5,4 km in 1998 in Pantani's preferred tempo and you and I know that the time obviously would be better than was it was that day.

 

[zlev11]

I say the pacing CONTRIBUTED to the difference, not that it is all the difference ofc. Thats should be very clear if you chose to read my post. How much time? We simply don't know, but its incredibly disingenious just to shrug it off. Thats not how it works, and you can definitely do better than that. Every racing situation is different, but find to riders that can pace you to 5,4 km in 1998 in Pantani's preferred tempo and you and I know that the time obviously would be better.

sure the pacing contributed but they still have to, you know, ride that pace. going slower at the bottom allows you to go faster at the top, especially since Pantani was alone taking time, he was going as hard as possible. i do agree that him sitting on Vingegaard for about 5k helped him a bit, but i think maybe that gave him 30-40 seconds maximum? still would've been ridiculous. it's really just a semantical argument.

 

[Rob5091]

If yesterday was a one off, then sure how it was raced meant fast times, but this whole year has been faster and faster races. That times from the EPO-era are being beaten leads one to think that it might not be EPO but it can not be just porridge and tyres.

 

[Valv.Piti]

sure the pacing contributed but they still have to, you know, ride that pace. going slower at the bottom allows you to go faster at the top, especially since Pantani was alone taking time, he was going as hard as possible. i do agree that him sitting on Vingegaard for about 5k helped him a bit, but i think maybe that gave him 30-40 seconds maximum? still would've been ridiculous. it's really just a semantical argument.

I'd think between 1-1,5 minutes difference in draft and pacing at the speeds they were going getting paced for about 11 km. But thats just a guess, Im sure some people know a lot more about that than me.

I do agree that the performance was completely out of this world. Just saying that the race situations for both climbs were very different, a variable like everything else like the rest of the stage, previous stages, the weather, wind etc. etc. and we all have to account for that when comparing these times. Its a tad too easy just to look at a time and scream doping, even though in this instance, its probably not too far off given the stratospheric level. At least that can help us understand the difference a bit better, thats all.

 

[Slavique Nuke]

Pantani went all out from like 11k to go. this argument might hold water if the gap was 20-30 seconds but he crushed it by FOUR MINUTES. the whole previous part of the stage was ridden extremely hard too.

You seem to struggle with even the most basic physics. How can a guy who soloed for almost 12 kilometres be faster than a guy who was paced by a two-time TdF winner at maximum effort until the last 5 kilometres?

+ I didn't measure the time but I think Jorgenson already had a massive lead over the 1998 peloton when Pantani attacked.

 

[Tim Cahill]

Something must be wrong somewhere, some kind of freak tailwind or an error everyone is making in the calculations, I just don't get it at all, this stage was the most absurd outlier in what has become a packed field in the past few years.

I can accept that maybe like a 5% increase in performance on final climb values over about 10 years could possibly be reached by numerous small improvements in multiple areas.

How can they explain a 10% increase in performance at the top level of the sport from this time last year? This is even with last years displays looking comically dodgy.

Not just that, but also a massive improvement upon the numbers on the final climb that they posted in an easier mountain stage the day before.

I've watched the stage, this and Pantani's record, the way it was raced can't amount for that much of a differential, maybe if it was a minute then fine, race conditions and all that, but almost 4 minutes, wtf. Like, this might've been the hardest raced mountain stage start-finish I can remember and they still did that on the last climb, it's like extreme fatigue is somehow making them stronger.

 

[zlev11]

You seem to struggle with even the most basic physics. How can a guy who soloed for almost 12 kilometres be faster than a guy who was paced by a two-time TdF winner at maximum effort until the last 5 kilometres?

+ I didn't measure the time but I think Jorgenson already had a massive lead over the 1998 peloton when Pantani attacked.

you're the person struggling with physics: they're riding on an 8% incline, the draft is minimal

Pantani NEVER did a performance as good as this

 

[Ripper]

So, no even slightly awkward questions by the Press today? I think perhaps just a request to explain the performance in general. But no actual questions about doping.

I think a lot of the reasoning why has already been explained. The only thing I would add is the incredibly deep pockets and power of certain teams make it quite cost prohibitive for journalists to go there with nothing

 

[zlev11]

So, no even slightly awkward questions by the Press today? I think perhaps just a request to explain the performance in general. But no actual questions about doping.

I think a lot of the reasoning why has already been explained. The only thing I would add is the incredibly deep pockets and power of certain teams make it quite cost prohibitive for journalists to go there with nothing

nope, instead everyone was begging Tadej to show up and ruin the Vuelta too

 

[Tim Cahill]

No awkward questions no, but there was one ex-cyclist at least taking the piss

https://twitter.com/x/status/1812751161826455723

Ok Now, it's not good to be a sprinter on the TDF. Pantani… I no longer understand anything about cycling, courage to the survivors for the next few days #delai

Nacer Bouhanni: "I find it more and more difficult to hear people on TV preaching the good word, saying what is right or wrong when they have a deceitful past. Hearing them go into ecstasies over certain things are unbearable to hear"

I don't have an subscription myself, perhaps someone can post it here as it's behind a paywall

« Je ne comprends pas comment c’est possible » : Nacer Bouhanni doute des performances sur le Tour de France

L’ancien sprinteur avoue son incompréhension devant les records de vitesse répétés chaque jour par les meilleurs dans les ascensions. Et il

www.leparisien.fr

Always rated him myself. Bruiser Bouhanni. One of the good ones, who would've thought it.

 

[houtdffan]

the top 3 climbing performances of the century occurred Sunday

Think about what happened. Remco set the 21t century climbing record and was still beat by 3 minutes

Get ready for these 3 having to slam on the brakes going UPHILL in the Alps because the motorcycles are not fast enough and keep getting in their way

 

[Ripper]

the top 3 climbing performances of the century occurred Sunday

Think about what happened. Remco set the 21t century climbing record and was still beat by 3 minutes

Get ready for these 3 having to slam on the brakes going UPHILL in the Alps because the motorcycles are not fast enough and keep getting in their way

I am pretty sure there already was braking on a couple of the uphill switchbacks on Sunday

 

[houtdffan]

I am pretty sure there already was braking on a couple of the uphill switchbacks on Sunday

I was more thinking in the form of the Peyersourde in 2007 when there was braking on the straight sections because Contador and Rassmussen literally were going up the climb faster than the motos could

 

[ppanther92]

i dont know anymore what's more incredible

- Vingegaard returning from a heavy crash putting out by far his best numbers ever like it never happened
- Pogacar going even 0.1 w/kg better than that.
- Evenepoel also casually destroying Pantani record in the background

What the ***. They are going 10%+ faster than Armstrong times. Hilarious.

The first two are on par, I would say. Vingegaard without injury would match Pogi probably. Evenepoel also obviously putting a career-best performance but still a level below cleary (yet ).

 

[ppanther92]

Of course there's the dark side of the whole situation when all of a sudden guys start getting heart attacks in their late 20's because their blood is thicker than honey. Or a kid trying to turn pro hears about it and has to go to hospital or dies due to not having the budget and controls of a big team.

I mean, the still have to adhere to the 50% limit in hematocrit but yes, I can totally see the riskiness with that stuff in the sense of "more is more" or indeed less good medical supervision.

 

[ppanther92]

This is why we can't have nice things, as soon as they relax a bit about Antidoping the same old guys from back in the day (who are now/still running teams) take it too far.
The only way this arms race ends is big police raids or if people start dropping dead because they took it too far.

Thats indeed unfortunate and actually works like this in all aspects of life. Continuous circles of destroying everything (police raids, and so on, with putting cycling on the floor again in public perception), then a period of buildup, then a few years of "blue-sky" with people overdoing it, and rinse and repeat...

 

[ppanther92]

Actually judging by the profile of improvements - long climbs going way faster than short climbs - seems just very indicative of oxygen vector doping.

True

 

[Bavarianrider]

1. 2024: 39:50 Tadej Pogacar 23.95 km/h
2. 2024: 40:58 Jonas Vingegaard 23.29 km/h
3. 2024: 42:41 Remco Evenepoel 22.35 km/h
4. 1998: 43:20 Marco Pantani 21.88 km/h
5. 2024: 43:44 Mikel Landa 21.81 km/h
6. 2007: 44:08 Alberto Contador 21.62 km/h
7. 2007: 44:08 Michael Rasmussen 21.62 km/h
8. 1998: 44:26 Jan Ullrich 21.34 km/h
9. 2024: 44:33 Joao Almeida 21.41 km/h
10. 2007: 44:45 Mauricio Soler 21.32 km/h
11. 2024: 44:46 Adam Yates 21.31 km/h
12. 2007: 44:48 Levi Leipheimer 21.29 km/h
13. 1998: 44:53 Bobby Julich 21.12 km/h
14. 1998: 44:53 Michael Boogerd 21.12 km/h
15. 1998: 44:53 Leonardo Piepoli 21.12 km/h
16. 1998: 44:53 Fernando Escartin 21.12 km/h
17. 1998: 44:53 Christophe Rinero 21.12 km/h
18. 2024: 44:58 Santiago Buitrago 21.22 km/h
19. 2024: 44:58 Carlos Rodriguez 21.22 km/h
20. 2007: 45:01 Carlos Sastre 21.19 km/h
21. 1998: 45:21 Kevin Livingston 20.90 km/h
22. 1998: 45:23 Angel Casero 20.89 km/h
23. 1998: 45:23 Laurent Jalabert 20.89 km/h
24. 1998: 45:23 Manuel Beltran 20.89 km/h
25. 2004: 45:31 Lance Armstrong 20.96 km/h
26. 2004: 45:31 Ivan Basso 20.96 km/h
27. 2015: 45:30 Alejandro Valverde 20.97 km/h
28. 2015: 45:31 Christopher Froome 20.96 km/h
29. 2015: 45:31 Nairo Quintana 20.96 km/h
30. 2015: 45:31 Thibaut Pinot 20.96 km/h
31. 2015: 45:31 Tejay Van Garderen 20.96 km/h
32. 2015: 45:31 Alberto Contador 20.96 km/h
33. 2015: 45:31 Pierre Rolland 20.96 km/h
34. 2015: 45:31 Vincenzo Nibali 20.96 km/h
35. 2015: 45:31 Geraint Thomas 20.96 km/h
36. 2024: 45:47 Felix Gall 20.84 km/h
37. 2002: 45:55 Lance Armstrong 20.78 km/h
38. 2007: 46:00 Andreas Klöden 20.74 km/h
39. 2007: 46:00 Cadel Evans 20.74 km/h
40. 1998: 46:13 Dariusz Baranowski 20.51 km/h
41. 1998: 46:13 Marcos Serrano 20.51 km/h
42. 1998: 46:13 Luc Leblanc 20.51 km/h
43. 1998: 46:18 Giuseppe Di Grande 20.48 km/h
44. 1998: 46:18 Laurent Madouas 20.48 km/h
45. 2024: 46:19 Derek Gee 20.60 km/h
46. 2024: 46:19 Giulio Ciccone 20.60 km/h
47. 2011: 46:20 Jelle Vanendert 20.59 km/h
48. 2015: 46:27 Robert Gesink 20.54 km/h
49. 2015: 46:27 Bauke Mollema 20.54 km/h
50. 2007: 46:31 Andrey Kashechkin 20.51 km/h

 

[Bavarianrider]

Cycyling`s only luck is that we don`t have Alpe d Huez this year. The general public doesn`t really react to what happens on an "unknown" climb. But if Pogacar had gone sub 35 on Alpe D Huez, which he would have done, surely the reactions would have been a lot different.

 

[Mayomaniac]

Cycyling`s only luck is that we don`t have Alpe d Huez this year. The general public doesn`t really react to what happens on an "unknown" climb. But if Pogacar had gone sub 35 on Alpe D Huez, which he would have done, surely the reactions would have been a lot different.

Alpe d'Huez and Hautacam to become no go zones?