Steakgate latest: Contador positive for Clenbuterol in four different tests

[python]

when you compose your response in a way that leaves an impression that some one said something you disagree with or critique whilst that was never said the may you presented it, you sound like you have a conversation with yourself.

in this case, by saying that somehow I stated that a hair test is capable of distinguishing contaminated meat from transfusion, you gave in to your own imagination and invented an intentional leap in logic or in plain english you used a strawman.

what I did say is simple and is still there -

’because both mentioned reference cases (ocharov’s and gasquet’s) involved hair testing, we can conclude with very high confidence that contador’s defence will also be based on his (and possibly his teammates) hair testing‘

.
the hair test, depending on how it’s factored in and who and when could/would/might be tested, can be used in a number of ways to complement several different legal strategies none of which are clear at this point and therefore have not been specifically explored by me.

there is one common application of the hair test though that stands out (in addition to other applications) - it was used to show and this was accepted by the panel - that neither ovchrarov nor gasquet were habitual, long term users of the drug they tested positive for.

the second common element in the 2 cases (ovcharov’s and gasquet’s) was that based on the miniscule amounts found, and in combination with the alleged lack of long-term drug abuse as established by the hair test, both athletes lawyer’s argued one-time, accidental origin of the banned drug in their client’s system.

we know that the 2 described above common elements make contador’s case similar to ovcharov’s and gasquet’s and thus create an attractive model to follow given their successful legal outcome.

the rest of contador’s defence strategy as i said before is not clear. i feel they’ll try an elimination logic - I’f it’s not (a) or (b) or (c ), then it must be (d)’ or something like that...

explaining away blood transfusion possibility as the route of clenbuterol entry, is most certainly the biggest hurdle i am far from certain contador will overcome. But he may try, including the use of his blood passport...if it's clean.

 

[Publicus]

Re-read my original post. It has been clear for a long time that the CB came from either contaminated meat or a transfusion. It was not a result of CB doping during the Tour, because it was not present in detectable amounts in Bert's urine except for a two day window. Either of these scenarios, food contamination or transfusion, involve acute rather than chronic ingestion of CB, and would result in the same general findings in a hair test. Probably negative.

So the hair test is scientifically useless here. It might be legally useful, though, because merely by calling for it, Bert's lawyer is setting up a straw man--chronic doping with CB over a period of time--that can be effectively demolished. The two day window has already demolished that argument, but he might want to resurrect it to divert attention from the transfusion scenario.But that will undoubtedly come up, and when it does, the lawyer might, as Python suggested, use passport results to argue that Bert has not been transfusing. As I noted earlier, that argument is also scientifically dubious, but again, might score points in a legal battle.

If he was transfusing, wouldn't they be able to determine that through testing of hair follicles that most folks don't routinely cut (e.g., pubic, chest, arm pit)? As I understand it, clenbuterol is used over a period of time to obtain results, not one or two doses (my understanding could in fact be incorrect here--Im very open to that possibility), which would mean that it should be present in those types of follicles.

That being said, I follow your point.

 

[Merckx index]

Depends on how far back in time the hairtest can look. See my previous post: the bloodtransfusion hypothesis suggests AC did do a CLEN-diet at some point during the season prior to the Tour, right? So if the hairtest covers, say, an entire year, and no suspitious values pop up, it would be further evidence against a bloodtransfusion.

Again, I covered that in my previous post. I said the window is generally just a few months. The drug in effect leaks from the follicle into the hair, and over time it is diluted, though with today's better detection methods, the window presumably can be extended back further.

It's December now, and I take it a hair analysis has not been carried out yet (because if it had, and it was negative, Bert's team would be proclaiming this surely). If he doped with CB during the period when he withdrew the blood, we are talking about June at the latest, and maybe much further back (as I have discussed here previously, use of freezing allows athletes of means to do all their withdrawals in the offseason). And in fact, given the test for CB, one would assume that if Bert actually took it, he would do it out of competition.

Can CB be detected in hair 6-12 months later? I don't know. Again, maybe with these really sensitive detection methods it can be. But I don't see how a negative hair test at this point can be taken as strong proof that Bert didn't use CB earlier in this year. Remember, he would have been careful to use small doses. We now have reason to believe that he might have overestimated the minimum detectable dose, but still, detecting it in hair this long after a course of small doses seems problematic.

Likewise, Publicus, I mentioned in my previous post that they might analyze hair from other parts of the body. This test might be more meaningful, though hair in other parts is still turning over, so there is still a dilution effect.

Moreover, suppose CB is detected in his hair? Is that really evidence of doping in the past, or just a result of the new very sensitive detection methods? CB can be ingested through not only meat, but other foods. As is the case with DEHP and other plasticizers,we all may have small amounts of CB in our bodies from a variety of environmental sources. Several scientists have argued that with the development of more sensitive tests, CB may be detectable in virtually everyone, and therefore it should be classified as a threshold drug. Given this, I think it will be very hard to use a hair test at this point in time to prove anything at all.

when you compose your response in a way that leaves an impression that some one said something you disagree with or critique whilst that was never said the may you presented it, you sound like you have a conversation with yourself.

in this case, by saying that somehow I stated that a hair test is capable of distinguishing contaminated meat from transfusion, you gave in to your own imagination and invented an intentional leap in logic or in plain english you used a strawman.

Python, I have appreciated a lot of your postings here, but this one mystifies me. What you say here really applies much more to you than to me. A cursory check of my post will verify that I never said that you said "that a hair test is capable of distinguishing contaminated meat from transfusion". I simply said that it couldn't. Since you didn't address that issue at all in your post, I took it upon myself to do so.

I suppose I could have added, "I'm not saying that you believe this, Python, but just want to make it clear to the rest of the forum that this test can't distinguish these two possibilities." But I really thought that what I did add, that you might very well be right that Bert's lawyer would take this approach regardless of its scientific problems, would be enough.

 

[Der_Gestreifte]

Testing Hair for Clen?

I don´t know whether this link has been posted before, but it looks like your academic discussion might lead to nothing

This is just too much for Contador, he´s already losing his hair over this affair.

 

[hrotha]

I don´t know whether this link has been posted before, but it looks like your academic discussion might lead to nothing

This is just too much for Contador, he´s already losing his hair over this affair.

Here's the original piece the Dutch article mentions:
http://www.abc.es/20101204/deportes/cuesta-dormir-cada-noche-20101204.html

By the way, there's rumours that Contador's legal team is trying to bring down a Spanish blogger who said the kind of stuff you can read in the Clinic. And apparently, if the rumours are true, it's pretty serious.

 

[Willy_Voet]

I'm confused, will they will be testing the hair of the cow he kissed or the cow he ate?

 

[Merckx index]

I'm confused, will they will be testing the hair of the cow he kissed or the cow he ate?

Actually, that makes a good point. Hair testing of cattle might be useful here, if farmers are CB-doping their cattle, then slaughtering them several weeks after the last dose, to evade the meat control tests.

Wrt humans, I have not been able to find any information on how long after CB use the drug can be detected in hair. This rather old study http://www.clinchem.org/cgi/reprint/42/11/1869 gave volunteers 10 ug for 25 days, and was able to detect it in hair which apparently (they don’t say) was collected immediately after duration of treatment. Interestingly, and quite possibly relevant to Bert’s case, dark haired individuals had 4x as much CB in their hair as fair-haired individuals. The authors note that CB may be detected at much longer intervals, but this assumes the hair is still available. If the subject has a haircut--and judging from pictures, Bert gets one fairly often--the greatest amount of drug, which leaks into the hair within a few weeks after concentrating in the follicle, will of course be gone. I would think that, even assuming Bert took CB in a chronic regimen as recently as June, a haircut or two since then would destroy most of the evidence. There are also treatments that can be used to remove drugs from the hair.

Here are two more relevant articles:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11347683

This is by the same researcher who came up with the DEHP or plasticizer test. Two interesting quotes from the abstract:

Negative hair results coupled with positive urine samples may be used to draw conclusions of involuntary doping in sports whenever athletes claim not to have ingested any drug, identical substances are present in their environment or are normal constituents of food and beverages served to them immediately before the competition.

But the authors also note:

[hair analysis] cannot be used for routine control and overrule positive urinalysis..In the current International Olympic Committee (IOC) code, hair analysis is not yet considered useful even in special cases of doping control.

This article was published way back in 2002, but I believe this is still the case.

This article, even older, is of interest because it documents the interest in using hair analysis for bike racers. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10689587
Love that opening reference to Festina:

In France during a famous bicycle race, the newspapers documented the degree in which doping seemed to be supervised in some teams by managers and doctors. Use of anabolic steroids and other substances was officially banned in the mid-seventies by sports authorities. This policy has been enforced through urine testing before competition. It is well known, however, that a latency period is all that is necessary to defeat these tests. Nevertheless, hair analysis could be a promising tool when testing for periods that are not accessible to urinalysis any more. We have developed different sensitive methods for testing hair for amphetamines, anabolic steroids and their esters and corticosteroids. …Thirty cyclists were sampled and tested both in hair and in urine. Amphetamine was detected 10 times in hair (out of 19 analyses) compared to 6 times in urine (out of 30 analyses). Corticosteroids were detected 5 times in hair (methylprednisolone 1 case, triamcinolone acetonide 3 cases and hydrocortisone acetate 1 case) in hair (out of 12 analyses) compared to 12 times (triamcinolone acetonide 10 cases and betamethasone 2 cases) in urine (out of 30 analyses). Anabolic steroids were detected twice (nandrolone 1 case, and testosterone undecanoate 1 case) in hair (out of 25 analyses) compared to none in urine (out of 30 analyses).

 

[DAOTEC]

Spanish expect UCI results soon, cowtador will know his fate

Wednesday, January 19, 2011:[http://velonation.com/Ruling-in-Contador-case-next-week?.aspx]

 

[runninboy]

Actually, that makes a good point. Hair testing of cattle might be useful here, if farmers are CB-doping their cattle, then slaughtering them several weeks after the last dose, to evade the meat control tests.

Well the only problem is the cow in question is long dead & gone.
While they could possibly prove other animals in the herd had been exposed to CB the prosecution could argue that the "evidence" cattle were not in quaratine since this story broke. So there is no way to prove that the CB was being administered before or after the positive test by AC.
At best this would be highly speculative and would be definitive proof of basically nothing as the only real proof you could provide was exhaisted when the "tainted" meat had been consumed.
Burden of proof is on AC and it is impossible to meat.
sorry could not resist

 

[Cobblestoned]

This is how it works in other sports.

Not the end but another step for Dimitrij Ovtcharov...

Tischtennis-Nationalspieler Dimitrij Ovtcharov hat im Kampf gegen Doping-Vorwürfe einen weiteren Etappensieg errungen. Das Disziplinarorgan Anti-Doping (DOG) des Deutschen Tischtennis-Bundes (DTTB) bestätigte am Dienstag den Freispruch, den im Vorjahr das DTTB-Präsidium ausgesprochen hatte. Nach "intensiver Prüfung des Falls" sieht die Kommission keinerlei Beweise für ein Dopingverschulden des 22-jährigen Profis. Der Weltranglisten-Zwölfte, bei dem in einer Urinprobe am 23. August 2010 Spuren der verbotenen Substanz Clenbuterol gefunden worden waren, ist damit weiterhin spielberechtigt.

http://www.sueddeutsche.de/sport/sport-kompakt-sein-dritter-ruecktritt-1.1047767

 

[DAOTEC]

OVTCHAROV acquitted again

This is how it works in other sports.

Not the end but another step for Dimitrij Ovtcharov...

http://www.sueddeutsche.de/sport/sport-kompakt-sein-dritter-ruecktritt-1.1047767

DTTB decision confirmed: no suspension for OVTCHAROV

19/01/2011 - The Disciplinary Commission Anti-Doping ----
In its reasoning, the Commission agrees with the DTTB that “no guilt” of Dimitrij OVTCHAROV was discovered in accordance with article 10.5.1 of the Anti Doping Rules (ADO). “The athlete has convinced the DOG that the substance, in all probability, entered his body without his knowledge through food intake”, as stated in the reasoning of the decision, during his stay in China or the trips to and from there between August 16 and 22." Experts SCHÄNZER and THIEME: “Contaminated food is the most probable explanation of the test result.”

The DOG also considered the four additional analyses from other DTTB athletes who had participated at the Pro Tour Event in China last August; their urine samples – in a separate test – also showed traces of Clenbuterol, but in an even smaller quantity. Apart from this, the Commission’s decision is based on the negative result of OVTCHAROV’S hair sample test which proves that he did not use anything containing Clenbuterol over a longer period of time or intensively.

Complete review in English: http://www.ettu.org/news_view.php?id=3433

 

[python]

don’t know if the news of ocharov's second acquittal is going to help contador, but it can’t hurt him.

what's next ? three bodies have the right of appeal to cas within 3 weeks of the receipt of the complete file: wada, german nada and the international tt fed.

i doubt that nada and ittf will appeal. they almost said so.

will wada appeal ? my hunch is they wont after the second review because it was conducted on wada's request and was supposed to answer their questions.

contador should have tested his dinner mates.

 

[GJB123]

don’t know if the news of ocharov's second acquittal is going to help contador, but it can’t hurt him.

what's next ? three bodies have the right of appeal to cas within 3 weeks of the receipt of the complete file: wada, german nada and the international tt fed.

i doubt that nada and ittf will appeal. they almost said so.

will wada appeal ? my hunch is they wont after the second review because it was conducted on wada's request and was supposed to answer their questions.

contador should have tested his dinner mates.

Who says he hasn't? Does anyone really know what they have offered up in defense?

Regards
GJ

 

[python]

marca hins at acquittal soon ?

surprised the swordsman hasn’t posted this yet…
http://translate.google.com/transla....com/ciclismo.html&sl=es&tl=en&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

anyways, if google got this right, according to marca the uci agreed to render their opinion of guilt/no guilt by today but it will be officially served as a ‘scientific interpretation/opinion’ under uci rules 262 and 263. But wada strictly declined rfec’s offer of sharing the burden of responsibility and may appeal.

the paper referred to unnamed sources that described condador’s evidence as ‘very solid and well argued’ with up to 10 medical reports including from the spanish nada.. i hope it will become public one day.

 

[hrotha]

If, as is to be expected, the UCI keeps its word

LOL

But yeah, Google Translate got it right. Is this a first?

 

[peloton]

Interesting.
http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireStory?id=12745838&page=1

 

[webvan]

Good article, this stands out though "Zhao is baffled why, if bad food is a cause, comparatively few athletes fail tests."

 

[delbified]

You should've taken a look at his face after the final time trial this Tour. He looked like a 50 year old.

And he himself said he had stomach cramps the night before the time trial and didn't sleep well. He said this during the Tour by the way, so it's not an excuse he made after he knew he tested positive.

err.. that's not serious illness. he still whupped andy schleck.

cadel once p****d blood after a Tour. no one feels like a million dollars after riding the Tour for 3 weeks.

 

[scribe]

'NO' Beef it's a KISS

(AP) – 3 hours ago MADRID — Alberto Contador's lawyers are using tennis player Richard Gasquet's successful appeal against cocaine use as part of their own defense for a failed Tour de France doping test.

French player Gasquet avoided a lengthy ban last year after proving he inadvertently ingested cocaine after kissing a woman at a nightclub.

Contador's lawyer Andy Ramos told The Associated Press on Tuesday ...

http://Associated Press.php

Andy didn't test positive for Clen, so this defense is simply not possible.

 

[Oldman]

Andy didn't test positive for Clen, so this defense is simply not possible.

Perhaps Alberto was kissing cows...

 

[Sanitiser]

Stupid. Take it on the chin like a man.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Coincidentally, on A Current Affair tonight, there is a story on what is in our beef

 

[hrotha]

This blog mentions one theory I'm not sure I had heard about before to explain the positive: Actovegin use. More specifically, Actovegin contaminated with clenbuterol. Does anyone have more info on this theory?

 

[python]

This blog mentions one theory I'm not sure I had heard about before to explain the positive: Actovegin use. More specifically, Actovegin contaminated with clenbuterol. Does anyone have more info on this theory?

an interesting hypothesis but in my estimation unlikely…highly unlikely in fact

one would need to be a cattle farmer or something to provide you with a reasoned answer but lets think aloud...

the main illicit use of clen in cattle industry is to make beef leaner or to increase beef’s muscle to fat ratio. i’d think that mostly grown, mature non-milking cows are fed clen some time shortly before they are sent to slaughter houses. but actovegin is a derived from blood of calves under 8 months old according to company’s own information. why would one want to feed baby cows with clen ?

additionally, the austrian company producing the drug is operating in a highly regulated european pharmaceutical industry and is unlikely to use illegal clen-contaminated south american or chinese sources. it's not an unregulated supplement/vitamin industry where it's possible .

i’d give actovegin theory 1 chance in 10 compared to a blood transfusion theory if clen indeed came from a needle.

 

[runninboy]

an interesting hypothesis but in my estimation unlikely…highly unlikely in fact

one would need to be a cattle farmer or something to provide you with a reasoned answer but lets think aloud...

the main illicit use of clen in cattle industry is to make beef leaner or to increase beef’s muscle to fat ratio. i’d think that mostly grown, mature non-milking cows are fed clen some time shortly before they are sent to slaughter houses. but actovegin is a derived from blood of calves under 8 months old according to company’s own information. why would one want to feed baby cows with clen ?

additionally, the austrian company producing the drug is operating in a highly regulated european pharmaceutical industry and is unlikely to use illegal clen-contaminated south american or chinese sources. it's not an unregulated supplement/vitamin industry where it's possible .

i’d give actovegin theory 1 chance in 10 compared to a blood transfusion theory if clen indeed came from a needle.

Wow i had no idea veal blood was used and by an Austrian company as well. does the word "WIENERSCHNITZEL" mean anything to you

Baby calves would actually be prone to Clen use because that is veal. Raised in crates and confined spaces they need help for muscle growth as continued feeding without exercise leads to fat deposits. This is actually one of the only plausible uses(still illegal) for clen in cattle. A limited mobility animal does not gain muscle at the same rate as other cattle. More fat, less meat. Most cattle opposite problem, lots of muscle, less fat.

this just gets more interesting

On a side note sometimes my family used young calves for our
meat. a ten month old calf can weigh about 600 lbs. Not profitable to sell so we ate them. Meat was not as pink as veal but the flavor was definitely similar. My grandfather told me that veal used to just be calves that were 6 months or so. Raised naturally but processed at a young age. Sometimes you lose the mother and you have to bottle feed a calf . When you do they are much fattier than other calves.