Study which show us that training with PM does not make you faster

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Mar 22, 2011
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fabramowski said:
this study remins me of stuff like this:

http://www.forcefactor.com/?fb_lgid=52&fb_lpid=3094&fb_itid=4948&pid=100&nid=31

http://adapexin.com/

take what you will from them (study), but every person develops different no matter what..

I'm not sure what we can glean from the above, apart from the lack of logical reasoning resulting in posting of unrelated images and URLs. Also known as The Great Internet LOLCAT and FAILSHIP School of Wit and Reasoning. Certainly more constructive than actually doing work and carrying out a scientific study.
 
Apr 7, 2010
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from the very first post: "The current general perception that prescribing training based only on power is more effective than prescribing training based on heart rate was not supported by the data from this study. Coaches who are unable to monitor progress frequently should prescribe training based on heart rate, when intervals are performed under stable conditions, because this may provide an additional advantage over prescribing training using power."

so if you don't monitor your progress what's the point.....
 

oldborn

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May 14, 2010
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First thing which surprised me that common beleive and common practice that HR is not very good to measure workload relationship during HIT, is not quite accurate as we beleive.

I would not be surprised if any other form of workload/intensity has been showed sucha results, but HIT hmmmm.

Lucia et al„HR coinciding with varius physological markers was relatively constant (2-3bpm) during course of a season. In contrast, power output, which may be a more direct measure of workload varied significantly.

Also subjects after 28 days of training period took a 10 day wash out period of training, during which time they were asked not to participate in any racing etc. After that period Vo2max test, 40km TT test and all other were repeated.

Also which is interesting after testing period each subject reported to the lab on 8 occasions for a supervised training session.

Some critics goes in direction that subjects were not well trained, hmmm 65:14, to 67:22 for 40km TT (before study) is IMHO well trained cyclist results.

However authors: „cannot state unequivocally that, for this specific HIT protocol, HR based training elicited greater improvements in performance and related parameters than power-based training, there is evidence in our data to suggest that may be so“

Further research is needed (especially at differing workloads) for sure, but quite interesting story.
Until then we can debate and not making obsolute and dogmatic opinions, for that we have Iustitia et Pax Dudes in Vatican:D
Also no need for Seppuku from PM users;)

Stay well!
Merry Christmass
 
Mar 18, 2009
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FrankDay said:
at least there is a first study now with results that surprised, I am sure, almost everyone.

On the contrary: I am not surprised by the results at all. They applied a fairly weak intervention over a limited period of time, and found no significant differences between the groups (despite the inherent bias of the study design tending to favor the GHEART subjects). You'd have to be pretty naive to expect anything else...in fact, it was a fool's errand to undertake such a study in the first place.
 

oldborn

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May 14, 2010
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fabramowski said:
from the very first post: "The current general perception that prescribing training based only on power is more effective than prescribing training based on heart rate was not supported by the data from this study. Coaches who are unable to monitor progress frequently should prescribe training based on heart rate, when intervals are performed under stable conditions, because this may provide an additional advantage over prescribing training using power."

so if you don't monitor your progress what's the point.....

Power meter based coaches should monitor progress on daily basis, it is pure and simple if you send them a email with your data.
Coaches who do not monitor progress enough frequently are not good coaches and they should be sent to Greenland.

Therefore you have a PM book from Dr. Coggan in which you should find answers on how to monitor your progress without coach;)

It is just discussion part from study and not a Holy Grail.
 
Apr 7, 2010
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"Some critics goes in direction that subjects were not well trained, hmmm 65:14, to 67:22 for 40km TT (before study) is IMHO well trained cyclist results."

so doing a 40km TT indoors and the best time of 65.14 (~24.9 miles, ~22.9 mph avg), I wouldn't say they are well trained. Mybe a CAT 4 at best, more like a CAT 5. (here: example http://www.lambra.org/results/2008/springTT08_r.htm.....)
 
May 12, 2011
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Hi Everyone

Thank you for all the interest shown in the study.

To answer a few of the questions and to respond to some of the comments:

About the author:

I am a sports physician and exercise physiologist.

I previously raced professionaly on the International MTB XC circuit, have 6 National XC titles and 1 National Marthon title. Was highest ranked South African rider on UCI rankings for 2003.

So yes, I do exercise and have experience of the specifics of the study.

I am also director of High Performance Cycling services at the Sports Science Institute of SA. We work daily with many of the World's best cyclists. Including winners of Grand Tours, World and National Champions.

With regards to PM's in general:

All of the athletes that we coach use Powermeters and we rely on them to optimise their training.

Does this mean that we prescribe all of our training on Power?

No

From the study we conducted (more specifics about that in a moment) and from our own experience as well as that of other scientists (Lucia and Aldo Sassi are examples) we discovered that PM's are not the be all and end all as some proponents of Power would have everyone believe.

Firstly, we noted that despite the vociferous statements to that effect, there was not a single shred of scientific data to support the prescription of training by power. As a result, we decided to conduct our own study. We did not have preconceptions.

As you can see, for the specific interval session chosen, heart rate seems to be the better option.

This does not mean that HR is better for all training sessions. It may well be that for a Tempo session, T-max intervals and others, Power may be better. We simply do not know and until we find out, I suggest you toss a coin.

There are lots of problems with HR as outlined in our manuscript. Keeping readings stable in the field is just one of them.

There are also lots of problems with Power. Power zones change almost daily with fatigue and more long term with changes in training status. Lucia showed this quite succintly with his data from the Banesto team (including that of 5 x TDF champion Miguel Indurain). Power fluctuates by 50-100W over the course of the season whereas HR only 2-3bpm for the equivalent physiological intensity. To overcome this problem requires an aversive test such as a MAP or FTP test (both of which interfere with training).

So what should we do?

In our lab we look at both HR and Power. Rather than throwing either one out, we look at the relationship between Power and HR. This has led to the development of a submaximal test to evaluate not only training status but also fatigue (Lamberts submaximal cycling test). We have published a fair amount on this topic in recent years and are continuing to evaluate the methods to improve accuracy and reliability.

For now, PM's remain a terrific aid to coaching. They allow us to objectively quantify the requirements of the race scanario and to assess whether the rider is achieving the required workload both in racing and training.

Coggan's TrainingPeaks software is a fantastic tool for the masses and allows athletes to analyse their performances, estimate fatigue and to look at all kinds of interesting metrics.

That said, training exclusively on Power is not proven and may not give you as great a training stimulus as training with HR.

Specific to the study:

We designed the study very carefully to ensure that the two groups performed identical training sessions with regards to mean loads. We then analysed the data to ensure that this was in fact the case. If you actually read the manuscript, you will see that we analysed ALL the training sessions and the mean HR and Power for intervals were identical between groups.

We speculated that the difference in the training stimulus was due to the very high power in the first 30s of the HR intervals, despite the much lower power in the second two thirds of the HR intervals in comparison to Power.

There is no evidence to show that holding a steady power is in any way advantageous. If you look at the optimal pacing strategy for events from the 4000m pursuit through to a 200km TT, none of them equate to a constant power. The most effective and common power profile is one which has a biphasic response (hard start, steady middle and surge at the end). Carl Foster and Jos De Koning have published extensively on this. Why anyone has come to the conclusion that you should go out and hold a steady power output in intervals and that this is beneficial is beyond my understanding. It goes against all the evidence.

With regards to the workload during the intervals. MAP is very much dependant on the method used to assess this. In our lab we use a 20W/min continuous ramp protocol, starting at 100W (it is the most common method used in the literature: 25W/min is also very common). Using this protocol, 80% is extremely tough to do 8 x 4min intervals (equates to just over 90% of MHR). So hard that some of the athletes in the group became overtrained despite only 2 sessions per week. The training status of the athletes was well above average and included many of the top provincial MTB and road riders.

We still use this session during the PreComp phase of training for many of our National team members. Most of them hate it because it is so hard.

With regards to the stats:

The method used (magnitude based inferences) is fairly new (contrary to one of the posts made) and was developed by Professor Will Hopkins (a bit of a stats guru). It is a very useful tool as it allows us to quantify the effect of the technique being used as opposed to trying to meet the null hypothesis. This is very useful in training studies and performance research as the margin between winning and being an also ran is often well below 1% (well below the ability of null hypothesis stats to detect). If you look at the studies conducted on:

Powercranks
Massage
Compression garments
etc.

None of the studies have been able to prove a benificial effect using null hypothesis stats yet athletes will tell you that the benefit is unequivocably there.

Finally, the only other study that has been conducted to assess the effects of training with HR or Power is still in review. It was conducted in the US and has no connection to our lab whatsoever. That said, I look forward to seeing the results being published soon.

I would implore those of you who have an interest in this topic to actually read the literature, think critically and not just shoot from the hip.

I am not going to respond to all the questions and the almost certain personal attacks that will come from Andy Coggan.

I do look forward to reading the responses though.

Regards

Dr Jeroen Swart
 

oldborn

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May 14, 2010
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acoggan said:
On the contrary: I am not surprised by the results at all. They applied a fairly weak intervention over a limited period of time, and found no significant differences between the groups (despite the inherent bias of the study design tending to favor the GHEART subjects). You'd have to be pretty naive to expect anything else...in fact, it was a fool's errand to undertake such a study in the first place.

Dr. Coggan,

Sarcasm mode on:
Off course that study was design to discredit all your contribution to science, you as a human, your dog, mother in law and all your friends. It is world wide conspiracy theory behind that study and we should sent SEAL s to South Africa. Those are same guys who killed JFK.

Sarcasm mode off:
Despite language barrier, why the hell those guys would risk their jobs and do this: " despite the inherent bias of the study design tending to favor the GHEART subjects"

Are they selling something else?
 
Sep 23, 2010
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acoggan said:
On the contrary: I am not surprised by the results at all. They applied a fairly weak intervention over a limited period of time, and found no significant differences between the groups (despite the inherent bias of the study design tending to favor the GHEART subjects). You'd have to be pretty naive to expect anything else...in fact, it was a fool's errand to undertake such a study in the first place.
"A fools errand" to do a study that had never been done before? Fergie comes here and calls HR "useless" and you call this study a fools errand. In Fergies PM thread you write: "If you know power, then at best heart rate is redundant but at worst it is misleading.", and you call this study a "fools errand"?

Where in your book can you point to telling your readers that if they were to do intervals using "equivalent" effort (as defined by these authors) but using HR as the feedback instead of the PM you are writing about that they would be "likely" to improve more? Or, point to anywhere else that someone has predicted such a result?

A fools errand indeed.

I look forward to seeing your study design that eliminates the inherent bias towards the HR group you see in this study such that the two groups would see equal results. Just how would you do that? Give us your design here.
 

oldborn

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May 14, 2010
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fabramowski said:
so doing a 40km TT indoors and the best time of 65.14 (~24.9 miles, ~22.9 mph avg), I wouldn't say they are well trained. Mybe a CAT 4 at best, more like a CAT 5. (here: example http://www.lambra.org/results/2008/springTT08_r.htm.....)

I would kill for those results.
Swart answer: "The training status of the athletes was well above average and included many of the top provincial MTB and road riders."

IMHO they are well trained cyclist again, Cancellara, Wiggins and Millar was not available at the time;) and Obree retired long time ago.
 
Apr 7, 2010
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"The training status of the athletes was well above average and included many of the top provincial MTB and road riders."

were's my contract at.. I can do this in my sleep 40km TT in 65.14......
 
Sep 23, 2010
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Jeroen Swart said:
With regards to the stats:

The method used (magnitude based inferences) is fairly new (contrary to one of the posts made) and was developed by Professor Will Hopkins (a bit of a stats guru). It is a very useful tool as it allows us to quantify the effect of the technique being used as opposed to trying to meet the null hypothesis. This is very useful in training studies and performance research as the margin between winning and being an also ran is often well below 1% (well below the ability of null hypothesis stats to detect). If you look at the studies conducted on:

Powercranks
Massage
Compression garments
etc.

None of the studies have been able to prove a benificial effect using null hypothesis stats yet athletes will tell you that the benefit is unequivocably there.
Dr. (?) Swart, thank you so much for coming here and participating.

I was very impressed with your use of the "inferences" statistics. As you point out the difficulty of "proving" effectiveness in short studies in this area is almost impossible. Hopefully more will start to use this in the future and hopefully, some who have published in the past might take a new look at their old data and publish (or, at least, make available) an addendum.
 

oldborn

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May 14, 2010
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fabramowski said:
"The training status of the athletes was well above average and included many of the top provincial MTB and road riders."

were's my contract at.. I can do this in my sleep 40km TT in 65.14......

I do not know where are you staying but maybe you should move to Capetown and you will become top provincial rider too;)
Anyway you are also well trained cyclist.
 
May 12, 2011
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On a Computrainer, properly calibrated and with a DF of 100, the time of 65min equates to approximately 54min in the field on a TT bike.

Please compare apples to apples.

That was my last post.
 

oldborn

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May 14, 2010
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Jeroen Swart said:
Finally, the only other study that has been conducted to assess the effects of training with HR or Power is still in review. It was conducted in the US and has no connection to our lab whatsoever. That said, I look forward to seeing the results being published soon.

This is for sure IRA kind of attack on PM industry/coaches for sure, financed by World Bank, Mossad and Georg Soros:eek:
Just another conspiracy theory against PM.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Just to respond to a couple of your "drive by" comments...

Jeroen Swart said:
There are also lots of problems with Power. Power zones change almost daily with fatigue and more long term with changes in training status. Lucia showed this quite succintly with his data from the Banesto team (including that of 5 x TDF champion Miguel Indurain). Power fluctuates by 50-100W over the course of the season whereas HR only 2-3bpm for the equivalent physiological intensity. To overcome this problem requires an aversive test such as a MAP or FTP test (both of which interfere with training).

So what should we do?

Simple: dispense with the artificial notion of training "zones", and learn how to train with a powermeter, rather than by power.

Jeroen Swart said:
Coggan's TrainingPeaks software is a fantastic tool for the masses and allows athletes to analyse their performances, estimate fatigue and to look at all kinds of interesting metrics.

Thanks for the compliments. However, it isn't "my" software...I am not a principal in TrainingPeaks LLC, but have merely licensed the use of some of my ideas to them (actually, the predecessor CyclingPeaks LLC, which consisted of Hunter Allen and Kevin Williams) for $1/copy of software sold.

Jeroen Swart said:
We designed the study very carefully to ensure that the two groups performed identical training sessions with regards to mean loads.

Hence the inherent bias to which I referred: although the mean power outputs were similar, by design the subjects in the GHEART group hit higher peak powers during every session. Is it therefore any wonder that they tended to improve more, at least/especially during the MAP test?

Jeroen Swart said:
With regards to the stats:

The method used (magnitude based inferences) is fairly new (contrary to one of the posts made) and was developed by Professor Will Hopkins

Notably, prestigious journals such as Journal of Applied Physiology have adopted editorial policies strongly discouraging (if not outright preventing) the use of such novel methods of data analysis, because they have yet to be accepted by the "mainstream" community of biostatisticians.

Jeroen Swart said:
I am not going to respond to all the questions and the almost certain personal attacks that will come from Andy Coggan.

You seem to have me confused with someone else, as I have never personally attacked you or anyone else in the scientific community. Feel free to try to come up with an example to prove this statement wrong.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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oldborn said:
why the hell those guys would risk their jobs and do this: " despite the inherent bias of the study design tending to favor the GHEART subjects"

How are they risking their jobs? You're never going to achieve tenure at, e.g., a highly-ranked US university if you only ever publish papers such as this one, but nobody is going to fire you for occasionally publishing a less-than-perfect study in something like the Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research.
 
Sep 23, 2010
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acoggan said:
JSimple: dispense with the artificial notion of training "zones", and learn how to train with a powermeter, rather than by power.
What does one use for effort feedback when one trains with a PM as opposed to training by power? If one isn't using the PM to assess effort feedback how is this different than training without a PM?
 
Mar 18, 2009
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FrankDay said:
What does one use for effort feedback when one trains with a PM as opposed to training by power? If one isn't using the PM to assess effort feedback how is this different than training without a PM?

Charles Howe summed things up quite nicely when he said "power calibrates PE, PE modulates power."

To give an example: if I'm doing 6 x 5 min intervals out on the road, I'll start each one with a sharp-ish acceleration from a slow roll just to get up to speed, then settle down to a level of effort that experience tells me I can likely maintain for the duration and number of repetitions I've chosen. I'll then use the powermeter as a "carrot" to make sure that I don't get lazy and ease off too much, and quit the session early if my power is abnormally low and/or my perceived effort is abnormally high given the power.

What I don't do, and what I've never seen anyone advocate, is trying to tightly constrain your power within a specific "zone" even if, e.g., you're improving such that it is becoming easier. Yet, this seems to be the very strawman the study at hand appears to be designed to address...
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Jeroen Swart said:

Some case: astute readers will note that I did not direct any ad hominem attacks at Dr. Noakes (unlike the ones he directed at me), but merely related what someone else had said. I did so to try to provide some context to the differing positions of the two parties in question (i.e., Drs. Noakes and Maughan).
 
Sep 23, 2010
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acoggan said:
Charles Howe summed things up quite nicely when he said "power calibrates PE, PE modulates power."

To give an example: if I'm doing 6 x 5 min intervals out on the road, I'll start each one with a sharp-ish acceleration from a slow roll just to get up to speed, then settle down to a level of effort that I think I can maintain for the duration and number of repetitions I've chosen. I'll then use the powermeter as a "carrot" to make sure that I don't get lazy and ease off too much, and quit the session early if my power is abnormally low and/or my perceived effort is abnormally high given the power.

What I don't do, and what I've never seen anyone advocate, is trying to tightly constrain your power within a specific "zone" even if, e.g., you're improving such that it is becoming easier. Yet, this seems to be the very strawman the study at hand appears to be designed to address...
So, in your system, you ignore HR? How do all those things like TSS come into this relatively simple PE based system you have described? Why were they developed if the PM is simply there to help the athlete "calibrate" PE? Is there any evidence that your approach results in better benefit to the athlete than doing a HR based approach? Is there any evidence that your approach is not worse than a HR based approach?
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Jeroen Swart said:

BTW, I thought it might be interesting to update/expand upon some of the statistics that Dr. Noakes brought up in his post attacking me:

Noakes, TD

# of original research publications: 307
average # of citations per above: 27.7
# of Citation Classics: 10
m quotient (h index/years since 1st paper): 1.4

Maughan, RJ

# of original research publications: 142
average # of citations per above: 31.8
# of Citation Classics: 9
m quotient (h index/years since 1st paper): 1.6

Coggan, AR

# of original research publications: 53
average # of citations per above: 82.1
# of Citation Classics: 14
m quotient (h index/years since 1st paper): 1.3

Anybody else see a pattern here? ;)
 

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