The fans and commentators defending Ledecky are already reminding me of Lance Armstrong. Trotting out some classics like "she trains harder than everyone else" (What am I on? I'm on my bike busting my ass six hours a day.), "the most tested athlete in swimming", and watching her dominate other swimmers who have failed drug tests. She is certainly not alone, but I don't find her performance to be credible.
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The Eurosport commentators were really good, in all fairness. Whenever there was a performance they thought was suspicious they would carefully imply it, but not say it outright in order to avoid a lawsuit. They would say that it was 'beyond the realms of what we thought possible' or 'superhuman performance'. At least I took as if they were implying doping, maybe they were not.Blakeslee said:
I have a question - how much complicity do you think a 15 year old would have in her own doping? I mean, would she be aware of it? Not giving her a get-out, more just curious as to how much control someone so young would have in their training? I mean, I'm guessing her awareness of some things was more than the average 15 year old, but equally, she is still a child, how much would people be telling her, and how much would she/should she realistically have been questioning?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/othersports/article-3318802/Young-swimmer-died-middle-night-sparks-new-fears-China-copied-Russia-s-doping-regime.html
Surely not China as well?
What ever next? Someone will tell me that the UK national lottery funded system that only rewards winning (against the aforementioned 'dodgy' nations) encourages doping!
Sarcasm aside, looks like another athlete has paid a high price for all this.
Surely not China as well?
What ever next? Someone will tell me that the UK national lottery funded system that only rewards winning (against the aforementioned 'dodgy' nations) encourages doping!
Sarcasm aside, looks like another athlete has paid a high price for all this.
The Carrot said:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/othersports/article-3318802/Young-swimmer-died-middle-night-sparks-new-fears-China-copied-Russia-s-doping-regime.html
Surely not China as well?
What ever next? Someone will tell me that the UK national lottery funded system that only rewards winning (against the aforementioned 'dodgy' nations) encourages doping!
Sarcasm aside, looks like another athlete has paid a high price for all this.
The Chinese are really reckless with their doping. It's not systematic, it's reckless. The Americans and Russians are a little more sophisticated, they at least don't kill their athletes.
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almost 0 degree complicity. And I have stressed this before in this thread, when i was criticised.
the new peptides come in creams, mouth oral solutions, and other modes of application, not hypodermics. To take cjc she could just be told by her coach to rub the cream into he stomach twice a day because it will keep her muscles "supple".
that is how it will work
so zero degree complicity by the 15yo
flying_plum said:
almost 0 degree complicity. And I have stressed this before in this thread, when i was criticised.
the new peptides come in creams, mouth oral solutions, and other modes of application, not hypodermics. To take cjc she could just be told by her coach to rub the cream into he stomach twice a day because it will keep her muscles "supple".
that is how it will work
so zero degree complicity by the 15yo
Ledecky just swam a 8:59 in the 1000 yard free, shattering the American record. She beat Andrew Gemmell by two seconds. He represented the USA in the 1500 at the last Olympics. So she is beating the best American men now....
BullsFan22 said:The Carrot said:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/othersports/article-3318802/Young-swimmer-died-middle-night-sparks-new-fears-China-copied-Russia-s-doping-regime.html
Surely not China as well?
What ever next? Someone will tell me that the UK national lottery funded system that only rewards winning (against the aforementioned 'dodgy' nations) encourages doping!
Sarcasm aside, looks like another athlete has paid a high price for all this.
The Chinese are really reckless with their doping. It's not systematic, it's reckless. The Americans and Russians are a little more sophisticated, they at least don't kill their athletes.
Actually that is not the case at all in the USA
There are plenty of high school coaches and college coaches that will have conversations with athletes and parents that go along the lines of
"you've got talent but you are not , big enough, strong enough or fast enough, but if you were to get a "nutritionist" or a "trainer" you might be able to make it."
The kids - or their parents who are sometimes the drivers of these poor decisions, then go out and do whatever they need to, to make the team. as it will get them into the better colleges or the better teams to be noticed,
If they don't make it however the american sport system does not give a damn and will jettison these poor kids to the sidelines without a thought.
There are kids dying all over the USA due to messing about with drugs and trying to do the impossible to get into the right school team to get to the best colleges on a scholarship to try and escape from the lives they live.
Due to the fact that there are so few colleges with good teams and so few colleges make up the national squads or top picks for the pro ranks, it is very very cut-throat and those who don't make it will not only be left with potentially large bills and poor health but also no way out of the poverty trap or mess they left themselves in - add in a ridiculous health system that is very expensive and you will see that the issues these experiments cause in later life will cause them a lifetime of paying for a failure to make their fortunes.
Sport in the USA is a business from the minute the kids get to high school
Lets not forget there are high school football coaches earning six figues and most college football coaches earn seven figures.
Basketball is not far behind
Track and field is a poor relation
swimming is even further down the pecking order
so to make it in swimming you have a very small number of schools to try to get into to be noticed and make it to the top ranks.
As with most things these days - it will be our children that will pay for our mistakes with their lives and money for generations to come.
Swimming is cleans! The international federation guarantees it!
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/olympics/summer/aquatics/swimming-doping-fina-coaches-1.3361697
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/olympics/summer/aquatics/swimming-doping-fina-coaches-1.3361697
Honest question: can these upper bodies plausibly be achieved without hgh and steroids?
I realize these guys do a lot of weight training, but still.
I realize these guys do a lot of weight training, but still.
Why do swimmers peak so much younger than every other sport?
I just saw yanhan ai 14 y.o just come second in a race. This would never happen in runnning, rowing, cycling. I suppose it is similar to gymnastics. How can you compete at 14 years old against olympians??
I just saw yanhan ai 14 y.o just come second in a race. This would never happen in runnning, rowing, cycling. I suppose it is similar to gymnastics. How can you compete at 14 years old against olympians??
http://www.couriermail.com.au/sport/olympics-2016/convicted-drug-cheats-escaped-out-of-competition-testing-before-rio/news-story/1a8d97cd2cd846d8d9c973391e4a71ad
OLYMPIC swimmers and coaches have lost complete faith in FINA amid revelations swimming’s governing body inexplicably let two convicted drug cheats escape out of competition testing for five months last year.
Not that the tests are easy to beat anyways.
OLYMPIC swimmers and coaches have lost complete faith in FINA amid revelations swimming’s governing body inexplicably let two convicted drug cheats escape out of competition testing for five months last year.
Not that the tests are easy to beat anyways.
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The comment section is filled with some unbelievable stuff. Truly incredible.
Benotti69 said:
The comment section is filled with some unbelievable stuff. Truly incredible.
thehog
BANNED
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Aussie swimmers pretending to be clean? Now, that is the biggest laugh in the history of sport
Benotti69 said:
Aussie swimmers pretending to be clean? Now, that is the biggest laugh in the history of sport
Re: Re:
The media down here is all over it talking about how our great clean Aussie swimmers having to compete against these doped up Chinese cheats, not even one voice speaking about the possibility that Aussie swimmers could be doping, they just wouldn't do that as we don't have a doping culture and show just what can be achieved with good old hard work
thehog said:Benotti69 said:
Aussie swimmers pretending to be clean? Now, that is the biggest laugh in the history of sport
The media down here is all over it talking about how our great clean Aussie swimmers having to compete against these doped up Chinese cheats, not even one voice speaking about the possibility that Aussie swimmers could be doping, they just wouldn't do that as we don't have a doping culture and show just what can be achieved with good old hard work
thehog
BANNED
Re: Re:
I could only imagine. They might ask themselves what happened to Hackett, Thorpe, Miller etc. when they stopped swimming. They move to other meds or fall deep into depression, generally both. The Aussie cyclists under Walsh were mostly the same. There is no support structure for ex-athletes who doped their entire careers.
StryderHells said:thehog said:Benotti69 said:
Aussie swimmers pretending to be clean? Now, that is the biggest laugh in the history of sport
The media down here is all over it talking about how our great clean Aussie swimmers having to compete against these doped up Chinese cheats, not even one voice speaking about the possibility that Aussie swimmers could be doping, they just wouldn't do that as we don't have a doping culture and show just what can be achieved with good old hard work
I could only imagine. They might ask themselves what happened to Hackett, Thorpe, Miller etc. when they stopped swimming. They move to other meds or fall deep into depression, generally both. The Aussie cyclists under Walsh were mostly the same. There is no support structure for ex-athletes who doped their entire careers.
Re: Re:
I always felt that the Aussies were less uptight and more neutral, perhaps things have changed in media. The American media was always going to try and persuade the public to view Russians and Chinese as 'villains.' You saw the clearly with King and to some extent Phelps, who backed her. Perhaps they did so on their own belief (though hypocritical it may be, as I am not convinced a clean athlete would be able to dominate dopers, who are equally talented and work hard) and not any pressure or anything they may have seen in the media, but no doubt it's working in the US. I have largely avoided going to any US MSM outlet and avoided the comment sections. Today I read one or two of the stories post King's victory, and the hero vs villain references were nauseating. The comment section fed on that, it seemed.
I suppose the Americans like King work extremely hard to win their medals 'clean,' while the Russians and Chinese don't work hard, have no talent and have to rely on doping to try and compete at the American level.
StryderHells said:thehog said:Benotti69 said:
Aussie swimmers pretending to be clean? Now, that is the biggest laugh in the history of sport
The media down here is all over it talking about how our great clean Aussie swimmers having to compete against these doped up Chinese cheats, not even one voice speaking about the possibility that Aussie swimmers could be doping, they just wouldn't do that as we don't have a doping culture and show just what can be achieved with good old hard work
I always felt that the Aussies were less uptight and more neutral, perhaps things have changed in media. The American media was always going to try and persuade the public to view Russians and Chinese as 'villains.' You saw the clearly with King and to some extent Phelps, who backed her. Perhaps they did so on their own belief (though hypocritical it may be, as I am not convinced a clean athlete would be able to dominate dopers, who are equally talented and work hard) and not any pressure or anything they may have seen in the media, but no doubt it's working in the US. I have largely avoided going to any US MSM outlet and avoided the comment sections. Today I read one or two of the stories post King's victory, and the hero vs villain references were nauseating. The comment section fed on that, it seemed.
I suppose the Americans like King work extremely hard to win their medals 'clean,' while the Russians and Chinese don't work hard, have no talent and have to rely on doping to try and compete at the American level.
Swimming fans - What's the deal with Hosszu anyway? I'm far from a swimming expert but it seems like every other major swimmer is several years younger than her (female swimmers peak very early?)
And then I saw that she didn't do anything in 04 or 08 and met her current coach (unrelated: who sounds like a psycho) right after 2012 where her best result in an event was 4th. Then the next year she started breaking World Records..
Is that progression/peaking at 27 believable at all?
As an aside, what is the general reputation of swimming as a sport? Like, if you'd compare it to an era of cycling..
And then I saw that she didn't do anything in 04 or 08 and met her current coach (unrelated: who sounds like a psycho) right after 2012 where her best result in an event was 4th. Then the next year she started breaking World Records..
Is that progression/peaking at 27 believable at all?
As an aside, what is the general reputation of swimming as a sport? Like, if you'd compare it to an era of cycling..
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My own two cents is that sports like swimming and gymnastics are Olympic sports like none other. I.e., if you're good at those sports, you're bound to get onto some Olympic state-funded program at a very young age, which in turn means you're going to be doping at a very young age (cf. Lemond/Heiden). Maybe that's part of the explanation.
But doping among the pro's is similarly rampant.
It's well documented that the US Swimming federation was shipping in German (blood) doping doctors in the mid-70s. The need for doping (steroids, blood doping) in swimming was openly talked about in that era.
Devaltos asked a related question upthread: why do swimmers peak so early? It's a fascinating question. I found some discussion of it on the internet (blogs, forums, etc.), but no satisfactory answer.luckyboy said:
My own two cents is that sports like swimming and gymnastics are Olympic sports like none other. I.e., if you're good at those sports, you're bound to get onto some Olympic state-funded program at a very young age, which in turn means you're going to be doping at a very young age (cf. Lemond/Heiden). Maybe that's part of the explanation.
They've had less scandals than cycling and athletics. Less scandals means a better reputation, clearly.
But doping among the pro's is similarly rampant.
It's well documented that the US Swimming federation was shipping in German (blood) doping doctors in the mid-70s. The need for doping (steroids, blood doping) in swimming was openly talked about in that era.
I've had enough of Ledecky. She is like the worse version of Sun Yang. If she ever wins the 100m free I will stop watching swimming.
Hosszu reminds me of Michelle Smith. However, she had some success before hooking up with her current Svengali, starting with 2009 words, where she won 2 bronzes. So there was definitely a progression. But I'm suspicious of her current dominance, especially coming later in a career with a questionable "coach."
Ledecky may just be an outlier, like Phelps or Janet Evans. Because swimming is less dependent on teams/tactics than cycling, it may very well be that training/technique/body type, taken together, can produce a naturally dominant athlete. Having said that, for those same reasons, microdosing is likely to be extremely effective.
I actually find the current finger pointing at the Chinese/Russian athletes refreshing. Sure, there's always the peril of comeuppance, but I certainly prefer it to the omerta in the peloton.
Ledecky may just be an outlier, like Phelps or Janet Evans. Because swimming is less dependent on teams/tactics than cycling, it may very well be that training/technique/body type, taken together, can produce a naturally dominant athlete. Having said that, for those same reasons, microdosing is likely to be extremely effective.
I actually find the current finger pointing at the Chinese/Russian athletes refreshing. Sure, there's always the peril of comeuppance, but I certainly prefer it to the omerta in the peloton.
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Sniper, I guess we would like to know more inside information. I guess more details if we could.
Just like in cycling it looks like some swimmers look really more talented than others. It doesn't mean that they are clean, but I guess they get more acceptance. Just like cycling.
Good points. Those in itself scream "doping" without being an expert.luckyboy said:
Sniper, I guess we would like to know more inside information. I guess more details if we could.
Just like in cycling it looks like some swimmers look really more talented than others. It doesn't mean that they are clean, but I guess they get more acceptance. Just like cycling.
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