Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[Krzysztof_O]

On paper it is unbelievable, but if you've actually seen the race, it was just like 3 years ago with Pogi vs. Roglic. You could just see that Roglic wasn't on his best day ever, and Pogi was. The same happened today. Add to that Pogi's inferior bike handling, losing a second in every corner, and this time gap isn't actually that unbelievable.

Losing a second in every corner? Pogacar was annihilated uphill and lost over a minute in the last 6.5 km (and also likely 10 seconds on the first climb).

 

[skippo12]

On paper it is unbelievable, but if you've actually seen the race, it was just like 3 years ago with Pogi vs. Roglic. You could just see that Roglic wasn't on his best day ever, and Pogi was. The same happened today. Add to that Pogi's inferior bike handling, losing a second in every corner, and this time gap isn't actually that unbelievable.

Pogi´s TT was on PDBF level if you look at the gaps to the rest of the field. Not like Pog finished 5th behind Dumoulin and WVA. He beat WVA by more than a minute.

 

[Valv.Piti]

On paper it is unbelievable, but if you've actually seen the race, it was just like 3 years ago with Pogi vs. Roglic. You could just see that Roglic wasn't on his best day ever, and Pogi was. The same happened today. Add to that Pogi's inferior bike handling, losing a second in every corner, and this time gap isn't actually that unbelievable.

Pog still put +1 min on everybody. Roglic got beaten was was shite that day. I don't think its comparable.

I get your points though, better bike handling, heat and recovery, okay, I get that. Still...

 

[Miha81]

Looking at percentage of winning time it is more dominant than anything Indurain, Ullrich or Armstrong ever did. Imagine a sprinter that beats WR Bolt by 0.2s.

Actually 0,5s

 

[theyoungest]

Losing a second in every corner? Pogacar was annihilated uphill and lost over a minute in the last 6.5 km (and also likely 10 seconds on the first climb).

On Dutch tv there was side by side footage from a few downhills and roundabouts, and I'm being kind when I say Pogi lost a second every time. If Vingegaard is let loose and doesn't stick to the wheel of Pogi he is by far the better bike handler.

Of course he also just had more power today, that much is clear.

 

[Zoetemelk-fan]

If Vingegaard is let loose and doesn't stick to the wheel of Pogi he is by far the better bike handler.

At least a better bike handler on a TT. At Cph '22 Stage 1 I witnessed something through wet fast corners and even wet cobbles of which I've not seen on a TT bike before. An Il Falco on TT bike flat fast wet corners, risking it all but seems like with the tiniest of tiny safety margins.

On normal bike, my observation is that they are pretty equal in skills along quircky downhill slopes.

 

[theyoungest]

At least a better bike handler on a TT. At Cph '22 Stage 1 I witnessed something through wet fast corners and even wet cobbles of which I've not seen on a TT bike before. An Il Falco on TT bike.

On normal bike, my observation is that they are pretty equal in skills along quircky downhill slopes.

No, they're not. Vingegaard often has to correct Pogacar's lines when he's on his wheel, you could see that on Sunday as well. It's just that he's never actually attacked Pogi in a downhill, probably because he hasn't had to.

 

[dobrien]

No, they're not. Vingegaard often has to correct Pogacar's lines when he's on his wheel, you could see that on Sunday as well. It's just that he's never actually attacked Pogi in a downhill, probably because he hasn't had to.

I agree with this; Vingo is very noticeably a superior descender, better lines and apparently a lot more confidence as a result. It adds up.

 

[Zoetemelk-fan]

No, they're not. Vingegaard often has to correct Pogacar's lines when he's on his wheel, you could see that on Sunday as well. It's just that he's never actually attacked Pogi in a downhill, probably because he hasn't had to.

OK objection taken, when mentioned I clearly remember the situations now, thanks.
*edit* and now recalling my memory by the time my thoughts were on the state of Pogi's wrist.

 

[Peyroteo94]

People talking like Pogi looked my grandmother taking corners... making excuses for what can't be explained.

 

[Zoetemelk-fan]

People talking like Pogi looked my grandmother taking corners... making excuses for what can't be explained.

Pogi is still among the best - we're just talking direct comparation* That's what not what I ment. It's just that when witnessing Vingo's downhill it instantly recalled my memory of his ability on a TT in the wets through fast corners.

Still on pure mountain downhill slopes on normal bike I still think Il Falco and JaJa on their best days are a level above Vingo here. Even Ala is better I think .

But speaking Vingo's abilities on a TT bike, he has the best skills, I've witnessed yet.

And no, I'm not looking for explanations here.

I just hope we can continue substantive discussions, although of course it may be difficult for many right now.

 

[meat puppet]

Well, he sits like a miner on the bike.

 

[Miha81]

So. With TDF over should he skip Worlds and try to do Vuelta?

 

[Netserk]

Despite his wrist, he has still achieved his highest level in this Tour (outside Marie-Blanque), so I hope he will smash Sanremo and Ronde next year.

 

[Salvarani]

Pog will bounce back. Lombardia again in the fall, hopefully.

I, at least, respect him as a champion.

This sport is what it is.

 

[ppanther92]

I actually think he can't match Vingegaard's peak in July, no matter what he tries. Doesn't mean he won't win again, since other factors (luck, tactic) are involved as well. But not seeing it tbh if eveything goes normal. Jumbo always finds another gear that others seem not to have.

So last year it was the energy wasting and weak team. Both fair points, but both fixed.
This year its the suboptimal prep. Again, to some degree fair point but looking at the sheer speed they climb, he is already his best self.

He will still be an all-time great by the looks of it, winning classics and GTs. Probably try another year in July and this time hope really everything goes optimal but if dominated again by Vingegaard, maybe its time to pivot to Giro and Vuelta to round the portfolio.

 

[skippo12]

I actually think he can't match Vingegaard's peak in July, no matter what he tries. Doesn't mean he won't win again, since other factors (luck, tactic) are involved as well. But not seeing it tbh if eveything goes normal. Jumbo always finds another gear that others seem not to have.

So last year it was the energy wasting and weak team. Both fair points, but both fixed.
This year its the suboptimal prep. Again, to some degree fair point but looking at the sheer speed they climb, he is already his best self.

He will still be an all-time great by the looks of it, winning classics and GTs. Probably try another year in July and this time hope really everything goes optimal but if dominated again by Vingegaard, maybe its time to pivot to Giro and Vuelta to round the portfolio.

I think this year he was on a higher level. He actually managed to drop Vingegaard. It´s not like Pog is having off days. He is doing what he is supposed to do. Just not enough against this version of VIngegaard. One could argue that this year he actually outperformed VIngegaard on most mountain stages but he simply cannot match Vingegaard on his 2-3 super peak stages.
Only thing left is a complete overhaul of his race schedule. Something I don´t want to see because watching Pogi going head to head with the classic guys is awesome. Maybe a completly different approach to racing on a new team. Bascailly turning him into a Skybot. Again something I don´t want to see.

 

[Oldermanish]

Looking at percentage of winning time it is more dominant than anything Indurain, Ullrich or Armstrong ever did. Imagine a sprinter that beats WR Bolt by 0.2s.

On a hilly TT he beat his teammate soundly. A teammate that has been off the front repeatedly and set tempo for two weeks. That's a good metric. That Tadej is in the neighborhood on time of his teammate speaks to how much cumulative effort they've used in two weeks as well. Comparing any previous effort to this TT course is pure speculation.
I'm not naive and think the implications of cheating relate more to the age of Ullrich and Armstrong. Unless there's something no one has seen before the testing protocols would likely catch a monumental deviation. Further speculation should probably go where it lives: Cinic City.

 

[Oldermanish]

Losing a second in every corner? Pogacar was annihilated uphill and lost over a minute in the last 6.5 km (and also likely 10 seconds on the first climb).

Did anyone see Puy de Dome?

 

[skippo12]

On a hilly TT he beat his teammate soundly. A teammate that has been off the front repeatedly and set tempo for two weeks. That's a good metric. That Tadej is in the neighborhood on time of his teammate speaks to how much cumulative effort they've used in two weeks as well. Comparing any previous effort to this TT course is pure speculation.
I'm not naive and think the implications of cheating relate more to the age of Ullrich and Armstrong. Unless there's something no one has seen before the testing protocols would likely catch a monumental deviation. Further speculation should probably go where it lives: Cinic City.

Applying the math equals speculations? We had hilly TTs in the past. Never seen anything like this. We had longer TTs in the past. Never seen anything like this. That´s a fact.

 

[Oldermanish]

I think this year he was on a higher level. He actually managed to drop Vingegaard. It´s not like Pog is having off days. He is doing what he is supposed to do. Just not enough against this version of VIngegaard. One could argue that this year he actually outperformed VIngegaard on most mountain stages but he simply cannot match Vingegaard on his 2-3 super peak stages.
Only thing left is a complete overhaul of his race schedule. Something I don´t want to see because watching Pogi going head to head with the classic guys is awesome to watch. Maybe a completly different approach to racing on a new team. Bascailly turning him into a Skybot. Again something I don´t want to see.

I'd take a breath or two before consigning Tadej to robotic behavior. The guy did not have ideal preparation and he was fantastic for most of two weeks. If he recovers tomorrow and takes two minutes back would we believe all is good? That he found Jonas' extraterrestrial power source? Jonas may have used much too much today and tomorrow can hinge on team performance.

 

[theyoungest]

Let's not forget that before the final climb, Pogi lost "just" 30 seconds, which wasn't great but still manageable. Then he did the bike change (that alone already cost him 12 seconds) and he lost a minute more on the climb. He didn't have his best day ever, but he and the team also made a massive mistake by changing bikes. Especially in the final few kms it was clearly a huge advantage to be on the TT bike.

 

[Trofonios]

Sure, nothing is over.

But if restitution is part of the explantion today, then I don't see Vinge being weaker tomorrow, both went really deep today.

 

[Screecher]

Let's not forget that before the final climb, Pogi lost "just" 30 seconds, which wasn't great but still manageable. Then he did the bike change (that alone already cost him 12 seconds) and he lost a minute more on the climb. He didn't have his best day ever, but he and the team also made a massive mistake by changing bikes. Especially in the final few kms it was clearly a huge advantage to be on the TT bike.

People need to stop with this bike change nonsense. It made very little difference, Vingegaard was simply stronger.

 

[Gigs_98]

F*ck all you stupid haters

Some people just can't accept facts.