Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[Peyroteo94]

Anyone saying Valverde was better than Contador, should be banned for life. Even Valverde knows Contador was a better rider all things considered.

 

[Salvarani]

Anyone saying Valverde was better than Contador, should be banned for life. Even Valverde knows Contador was a better rider all things considered.

They were both a lot better than the biggest luck merchant of all time, Nibali.

 

[topcat]

They were both a lot better than the biggest luck merchant of all time, Nibali.

This fits nicely in this thread because it's blatantly false. More mixing frogs with grandmas.

 

[Salvarani]

This fits nicely in this thread because it's blatantly false. More mixing frogs with grandmas.

Vuelta - luck
Giro - luck
Tour - luck
MSR - luck
Lombardia - being a daredevil and getting lucky on the descents

 

[topcat]

Vuelta - luck
Giro - luck
Tour - luck
MSR - luck
Lombardia - being a daredevil and getting lucky on the descents

He was lucky 7 times. He was unlucky many more times.
You can have the last word.
Good luck.

 

[QueenStagiaire]

Vuelta - luck
Giro - luck
Tour - luck
MSR - luck
Lombardia - being a daredevil and getting lucky on the descents

What about the 2013 Giro?

 

[KZD]

Yes, Pogačar and Valverde are 1:1 the same.

When did I say that they were?

I just pointed out that they are both allrounders and use that similarity to build my argument, obviously they are not the same when the 25 years old is already overtaking the palmarés of the 43 years old...

 

[Salvarani]

He was lucky 7 times. He was unlucky many more times.
You can have the last word.
Good luck.

Oh, it is not fun when anyone does what you do? Cool. Good day, mr topcat.

 

[Blanco]

Anyone saying Valverde was better than Contador, should be banned for life. Even Valverde knows Contador was a better rider all things considered.

I'm saying it! Again!
You spoke with Valverde it seems. What else did he said?

 

[Salvarani]

What about the 2013 Giro?

Needle in a haystack.

 

[topcat]

What about the 2013 Giro?

Nibali was lucky that Wiggins couldn't hack it.

 

[Blanco]

Valverde was a generalist rider that did better in rankings than in individual awards while Contador was a stage race specialist that did better in awards than rankings - You think Valverde was better.

Pogačar is a generalist rider that so far is doing better in rankings than in individual awards while Van der Poel is a classics specialist who is doing better in awards than rankings - You think Van der Poel was better last year.

While I wouldn't have minded if Van der Poel had won the Velo d'Or last year because he never won it and did a legendary classics campaign, it seems incoherent to me that you claim Van der Poel was better than Pogačar because from a results standpoint its actually the opposite.

I was responding about who the best rider in the world is, and took last year's results as a parameter.
Van Der Poel gets my vote. I gave him the edge over Pogacar, and then Vingegaard.
In 2022. Remco Evenepoel was the best rider, again over Pogacar.
In 2021. it was Pogacar.
I really can't see what Valverde and Contador has to do with that. There were years where Valverde was better, and there were years where it was opposite. Overall I value Valverde a tiny bit higher, but that's strictly my opinion. Just like overall I value Pogacar's career higher than Vingegaard's or Van Der Poel's. But as I said, last time he was clearly the best rider in the world, was 2021. Last two season's there was someone better than him imo.
That's all.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Nibali was very lucky in the 2014 Tour and 2010 Vuelta. He never had the talent to win all gt's but what stands for the history of cycling is nibali alongside gt legends like Merckx, Contador, Froome and Hinault

 

[topt]

I know Pogacar has great TTs in July but overall I think Ayuso is better on flatter TTs at this point. Maybe I’m wrong though.

based on what

 

[Blanco]

But if you wanne compare riders to Pogacar noone in the peleton will due yet atleast, objectively you have to go with riders like Indurain, Merckx at this point simply from what hes doing across everything already which we havent seen since the likes of Merckx, indurain and the other legends of the sport.

I don't know... Maybe more like Gimondi and Rominger. They both were capable of winning monuments and GT's, but there was always someone stronger.

 

[Froome]

I don't know... Maybe more like Gimondi and Rominger. They both were capable of winning monuments and GT's, but there was always someone stronger.

Pogacar is the next Jan ullrich thread.

 

[TrekCyclist]

Obv not saying Vingegaard is not gifted ofc he is but not too that level, hes very limited/niche

I know this should rather go into the Vingo-Thread, but I am really curious now:

What is the limited niche of Vingo's talent / abilities exactely:

Is it his climbing abilities, on mid/long climbs, with W/kg numbers hardly second to anybody else in history? (not only once but since almost 3 years now)

Or is it his TTs when in peak shape? (his Combloux performance widely regarded as the best since Indurain 1993 in Luxembourg / Ullrich 1997 in Saint-Etienne)

Or is it his recovery abilities and stamina in 3 week GTs, and ability to perform top in any weather conditions?

Not to mentions other things like bike handeling / downhill etc....

 

[Nick2413]

based on what

Ayuso beat Ganna for the win in a short flat TT this year if I’m not mistaken, along with Vingegaard and others. And he is still getting better. I just don’t rate Pogacar that high in flat TTs, I think he is top 10 but could get inched by Ayuso, which was the initial point, a false team hierarchy potentially being established like in the Vuelta.

 

[Peyroteo94]

I know this should rather go into the Vingo-Thread, but I am really curious now:

What is the limited niche of Vingo's talent / abilities exactely:

Is it his climbing abilities, on mid/long climbs, with W/kg numbers hardly second to anybody else in history? (not only once but since almost 3 years now)

Or is it his TTs when in peak shape? (his Combloux performance widely regarded as the best since Indurain 1993 in Luxembourg / Ullrich 1997 in Saint-Etienne)

Or is it his recovery abilities and stamina in 3 week GTs, and ability to perform top in any weather conditions?

Not to mentions other things like bike handeling / downhill etc....

For me it is his recovery. He wasn't better than Pogacar until stage 16 last year and normally people underestimate Pogacar's w/kg because he isn't 66kg when he is in Tour's shape (@Froome the other day put an article showing Quintana at 59 59 when he was in tour's shape and that is just BS and not true at all. Quintana was something like 55/54 kg when he was runner up in the 2015 Tour). So in terms of w/kg, they are very similar and I think the difference is really the fantastic way Vingegaard can recover.

 

[Froome]

For me it is his recovery. He wasn't better than Pogacar until stage 16 last year and normally people underestimate Pogacar's w/kg because he isn't 66kg when he is in Tour's shape (@Froome the other put an article showing Quintana at 59 59 when he was in tour's shape and that is just BS and not true at all. Quintana was something like 55/54 kg when he was runner up in the 2015 Tour). So in terms of w/kg, they are very similar and I think the difference is really the fantastic way Vingegaard can recover.

The article also had w/kg in a standard weight, it doesn't matter if Vingegaard weighs 58 or 60, or if Pogacar weighs 66 or 68 kg.

If you are talking about chronoswatts, they do calculations in a standard weight of 70 kg.

 

[Vudy]

I was responding about who the best rider in the world is, and took last year's results as a parameter.
Van Der Poel gets my vote. I gave him the edge over Pogacar, and then Vingegaard.
In 2022. Remco Evenepoel was the best rider, again over Pogacar.
In 2021. it was Pogacar.
I really can't see what Valverde and Contador has to do with that. There were years where Valverde was better, and there were years where it was opposite. Overall I value Valverde a tiny bit higher, but that's strictly my opinion. Just like overall I value Pogacar's career higher than Vingegaard's or Van Der Poel's. But as I said, last time he was clearly the best rider in the world, was 2021. Last two season's there was someone better than him imo.
That's all.

That's your take and you are entitled to it. Last season was legendary for Pogi. If it weren't for the crash I believe it would be even better. You are putting a lot of emphasis on the WC title it seems.

 

[KZD]

I was responding about who the best rider in the world is, and took last year's results as a parameter.
Van Der Poel gets my vote. I gave him the edge over Pogacar, and then Vingegaard.
In 2022. Remco Evenepoel was the best rider, again over Pogacar.
In 2021. it was Pogacar.
I really can't see what Valverde and Contador has to do with that. There were years where Valverde was better, and there were years where it was opposite. Overall I value Valverde a tiny bit higher, but that's strictly my opinion. Just like overall I value Pogacar's career higher than Vingegaard's or Van Der Poel's. But as I said, last time he was clearly the best rider in the world, was 2021. Last two season's there was someone better than him imo.
That's all.

I don't see how Van der Poel's 2023 road season was better than Pogačar's.

He won the WCRR, Sanremo, Roubaix and got second in Ronde.

Meanwhile Pogačar won Flanders, Lombardia, Paris Nice, Amstel, Flèche, got second at the Tour and third at the WCRR.

I understand that the journalists didn't want to vote for Pogačar because he 'failed' at the Tour and Van der Poel was more effective in his goals but objectively he was the best road rider of 2023.

Plus, in my opinion, to describe who the best rider in the world is one should also take into account what happened in previous seasons even though the last one carries more weight.

Me bringing Valverde and Contador is just because I remember you defending Valverde in several topics by taking into account his countless podium places and wins in the secondary races while now for you the best rider in the world is the one that despite the legendary season he did, got a total of six wins.

 

[topt]

Ayuso beat Ganna for the win in a short flat TT this year if I’m not mistaken, along with Vingegaard and others. And he is still getting better. I just don’t rate Pogacar that high in flat TTs, I think he is top 10 but could get inched by Ayuso, which was the initial point, a false team hierarchy potentially being established like in the Vuelta.

there is no way that will happen; Ayuso is not even close to Pog right now

 

[Nick2413]

there is no way that will happen; Ayuso is not even close to Pog right now

I agree about the overall scenario but moreso playing devil’s advocate.. UAE is a team that will have several riders in the mix and could easily have a Kuss-like scenario

 

[Peyroteo94]

Oh lord. Without crashes, UAE looks scary good!
Pogacar
Ayuso
Yates
Almeida
Soler
Sivakov
They will murder every climb in the Tour.