Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[bNator]

With Pogi included it would be bigger race then Tour was this year. In regard to the field. And on top of that the route is proper too.

Of course I agree it would be one hell of a race for us cycling fans. More prestigous than the Tour - that would mean more media coverage, more money, sponsors, celebrities… Let’s put it like that - we can compare the reception of the Vuelta winner with the one Vinge just had in Denmark…

 

[Extinction]

Pogacar is a variation of peak Zizou and Il Fenomeno while Vingegaard is 04-06 Mourinho's Chelsea.

At some point, god gifted talent will prevail over hard work and tactics

Well, Vingeggard is also a "God gifted talent." He is a Poseidon of the sea, Pogacar an Apollo on Parnassus. One has the Neriads, the other the Muses.

 

[Red Rick]

Pogacar is Achilles.

Roglic is Hector.

Vingegaard is Paris.

I don't want to know who Patroclus is.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Pogacar is Achilles.

Roglic is Hector.

Vingegaard is Paris.

I don't want to know who Patroclus is.

We all know who deep down.

 

[CyclistAbi]

If Vingegaard doesn’t win by 8+ minutes then it will not be close to Tour level competition. We will see.

Signaling the field is stronger or weaker?

In my opinion nobody will win this race by 8 minutes. Nobody has that in him. The field is too strong this year.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Of course I agree it would be one hell of a race for us cycling fans. More prestigous than the Tour - that would mean more media coverage, more money, sponsors, celebrities… Let’s put it like that - we can compare the reception of the Vuelta winner with the one Vinge just had in Denmark…

I meant more in between the guys. And yes from casual cycling fan point of view. As for the media. Netflix for sure wouldn't name it plan B this year. Considering current Vuelta, Giro and Tour champions, among others, will compete for the win. Likely the title would be crème de la crème. Or maybe la flor y nata, or maybe simply rogljiček.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Pogacar is Achilles.

Roglic is Hector.

Vingegaard is Paris.

I don't want to know who Patroclus is.

Evenepoel is Vuelta winner.

Roglič is Giro winner.

Vingegaard is Tour winner.

Pogačar is still in the club.

 

[Rob5091]

https://www.oasport.it/2023/07/cicl...to-tutti-pogacar-e-crollato-psicologicamente/

According to Paolo Savoldelli, Vingeggard devastated everyone and wonders if Pogacar cracked psychologically.

After reading about Pogacar wanting to leave the Tour after stage 5 (when his girlfriend crashed) and subsequent comments about morale, I hope there's no mental problems.

 

[Extinction]

After reading about Pogacar wanting to leave the Tour after stage 5 (when his girlfriend crashed) and subsequent comments about morale, I hope there's no mental problems.

Nah, he's a tough cookie.

 

[Red Rick]

After reading about Pogacar wanting to leave the Tour after stage 5 (when his girlfriend crashed) and subsequent comments about morale, I hope there's no mental problems.

Imo there's seperate things.

1. The wanting to leave the race after the gf crashes just seems like an initial reaction / PR piece based on that initial reaction
2. All the talk about psychologically cracking seems just *** to me. It tries to A) make the rider more relatable,) oversell the story and C) preserve the myth of the rider and rivalry. Nobody wants to read the story of "we found out rider A is just better than the other right nwo"

Given that the gap between them was under 2 minutes, and Pogacar got dropped while Kwiatkowski or whoever was pacing the main group, I find the notion that it was mental to be a combination of pure comedy and actually deeply insulting to the rider. If you really think about it the implication is that Pogacar "could have been up there with Vingegaard on Loze but decided not to/was mentally weak"

I can have my criticsm of Pogacar but it's not that he's mentally weak. In fact it happens quite a lot in other sports that underperformance is attributed to mental weakness as some sort of "I'm a fan of their talent but they didn't live up to expectations so it must be mental weakness" in some weird as *** way

 

[Valv.Piti]

Just laughable. Fatigue, low base, hot weather etc. contributed to Pog starting to feel a bit gassed towards stage 15, he wasn't all that great on stage 16 either (possibly worse, comparatively) and then on stage 17 the man with the hammer showed up on the biggest days of them all - in part because of Jumbo. Couple that with a crash and hard tempo all day and its only normal that you have that kind of breakdown IMO.

Im absolutely confident that if the preparations were reversed, it wouldn't have been close.

 

[Rob5091]

I was not referring to Pogacar's cycling ability or getting dropped on stage 17, but his current mental state going from what's been reported. The guy may be fine and just f*cked as he put it, but as the upcoming Cav documentary apparently points out his problems with depression, professional sportsmen and women are human beings under a lot of stress.
As for being "mentally weak", I've no idea what's that supposed to mean.

 

[Red Rick]

Im absolutely confident that if the preparations were reversed, it wouldn't have been close.

Problem with that assertion is that he lost in 2022 as well.

Given the level he displayed between stage 6 and 13 I think the assumption that he would just reach a higher level and would by minutes and minutes to be absurd. His dominance over the rest of the field was the same as it had been in 2022.

 

[Extinction]

Honestly I think the blow, coupled by the fatigue, after the TT left him armless. If you want to call that "cracked mentally" or physically empty it's anyone's call. But Pog himself said he cracked himself, which indicates mental defeat. "I'm gone..." says it all.

 

[Red Rick]

Honestly I think the blow, coupled by the fatigue, after the TT left him armless. If you want to call that "cracked mentally" or physically empty it's anyone's call. But Pog himself said he cracked himself, which indicates mental defeat. "I'm gone..." says it all.

You're essentially arguing cause and effect. The distinction is quite important. If you physically can't follow Kwiatkowskis pace, it doesn't matter at all how couragious you are in the race radio.

 

[YavorD]

His dominance over the rest of the field was the same as it had been in 2022.

Disagree. In 2022 he was 5 minutes ahead of the 3rd and more that 10 ahead of the 4th. This year he's been "mere" 8 minutes ahead of the 8th. And he rode much more controlled Tour than last year doing mostly Purito-like attacks.

 

[Extinction]

You're essentially arguing cause and effect. The distinction is quite important. If you physically can't follow Kwiatkowskis pace, it doesn't matter at all how couragious you are in the race radio.

Indeed, effect is related to cause and after the TT Pog was cooked (cause and effect). He tried to trade punches with Vingeggard and got his teeth kicked in during the TT. They will be thinking about that for the next year. Especially since Pog got the upperhand on the Dane three times before, but in the end it was a cat playing with a mouse. That Pog bounced back to marginally win stage 20 only reinforces the idea that he had broken down mentally on Col de la Loze

 

[peterfin]

To me the TT was also the decisive moment. Prior that he fought back courageously day after day and seconds by seconds timing his attacks strategically to not get punched by a counter from Vingegaard. The TT was an enormous set back. He made no errors (except for the bike change), went all out, gained more than a minute on Wout and still lost by such a big margin to Vingegaard. That must have been very painful and stressful for mind and stomach. When he felt the pain and the desperation that he didn't had an answer to Vingegaard on the Col de la Loze he gave up. Physically he might have more left in the tank but mentally he was gone.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

Pogacar is a variation of peak Zizou and Il Fenomeno while Vingegaard is 04-06 Mourinho's Chelsea.

At some point, god gifted talent will prevail over hard work and tactics

I think you are underselling Vingegaard here, he's clearly 09/10 Mourinho's Inter.

 

[Nick2413]

Imo there's seperate things.

1. The wanting to leave the race after the gf crashes just seems like an initial reaction / PR piece based on that initial reaction
2. All the talk about psychologically cracking seems just *** to me. It tries to A) make the rider more relatable,) oversell the story and C) preserve the myth of the rider and rivalry. Nobody wants to read the story of "we found out rider A is just better than the other right nwo"

Given that the gap between them was under 2 minutes, and Pogacar got dropped while Kwiatkowski or whoever was pacing the main group, I find the notion that it was mental to be a combination of pure comedy and actually deeply insulting to the rider. If you really think about it the implication is that Pogacar "could have been up there with Vingegaard on Loze but decided not to/was mentally weak"

I can have my criticsm of Pogacar but it's not that he's mentally weak. In fact it happens quite a lot in other sports that underperformance is attributed to mental weakness as some sort of "I'm a fan of their talent but they didn't live up to expectations so it must be mental weakness" in some weird as *** way

Agreed but also if Pogacar had beaten Vingegaard in the TT purely by Vingegaard going slower, it’s hard to imagine Pog dropping 5 minutes on Loze (assuming Vingegaard performed the same on Loze). There probably was something more than pure physical breakdown.

 

[SHAD0W93]

I think he was tired from the crazy two weeks and no strong base foundation, on top of the crash taking some out of his legs. Then add on the disappointment of getting absolutely destroyed in the TT. People can knock on mental health all they want but if you’re not mentally there, your body isn’t going to respond either. That time loss was a big blow to morale.

 

[iBanesto]

Is Pogacar riding the WC this year?

 

[dazaau]

Is Pogacar riding the WC this year?

Yes

 

[Netserk]

Disagree. In 2022 he was 5 minutes ahead of the 3rd and more that 10 ahead of the 4th. This year he's been "mere" 8 minutes ahead of the 8th. And he rode much more controlled Tour than last year doing mostly Purito-like attacks.

Before Loze, he had 7’04’’ down to Adam Yates in 3rd.

 

[Red Rick]

Gap to places lower down is super dependent on tactics and aggression. More than half of Pogs gap over Thomas last year was from 2 stages where Thomas was dropped by Jumbo and UAE domestiques.