Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

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Again, casting accusations against people who are not simply proclaiming Pogacar. Please provide three pieces of evidence of Pogacar's rivals displaying anger in the media.

Or will this challenge to sustain an accusation also be met with silence, as others were yesterday?

A literal example from NvH is his claim that the viewership has dropped in the last week of the Giro due to Pogacar’s large lead. This is his subjective opinion, not an objective one (as actual data shows otherwise). The 2023 Giro was very tightly contested, yet it was incredibly boring, and the metrics actually show 0.8% lower viewership than the 2024 Giro.-source.https://www.globaldata.com/media/sport/giro-ditalia-2024-generates-48-million-sponsorship-revenue-reveals-globaldata/?utm_source).That may seem like a small number, but for such a niche sport like cycling, it’s significant. Last year, before Pogacar’s participation, there was huge hype in Italy, and even this year, despite the fact that he isn’t Italian, many Italians are disappointed he’s not racing. If we only looked at the time gaps going into the final week, the 2023 Tour would have been much more boring than the 2024 TdF, since Jonas had a 7-minute lead before the final five stages in 2023. Last year, people still thought Jonas could do something in the last three stages because Pogacar’s lead wasn’t yet insurmountable by that point-and i hear nobody saying Jonas victory TdF 2023 was boring.

 

[scribers]

I would think a paid cycling analyst just making stuff up might draw some ire, naturally.

 

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No it's not. Many races are funnier without Pogacar. Tour of the Alps was extremely entertaining race. I don't think many people would disagree on that.

And just to clarify, because people in this thread don't seem to get it.
Nobody is hating on Pogacar or something. People are just looking at the battle for the win as most important value. And when there's no battle but the same rider wins that's predictable. Predictability is generally considered boring.

And again its not because of Pogacar. The Giro would be as boring if Vingegaard came and won 6 stages and the GC with 10 minutes. LBL would be as boring if Remco just attacked on Redoute and won by 90 seconds (yes, LBL 2023 was boring).
Itzulia 2023 was boring because of the above mentioned reason.
Oh, and Paris-Roubaix 2024 wasn't fun either.

I get what you are saying but lets me ask, without Pogacar how entertaining would MSR, RVV, P-R and Amstel be this year without Pogacar? Maybe they would be great, but we have seen one big race (E3) this year where MvDP raced without Pogacar and it ended with MvDP 50km solo attack. Without Pogacar going to those races it would be pretty boring and he saved whole spring season with his participations.

 

[YavorD]

I get what you are saying but lets me ask, without Pogacar how entertaining would MSR, RVV, P-R and Amstel be this year without Pogacar? Maybe they would be great, but we have seen one big race (E3) this year where MvDP raced without Pogacar and it ended with MvDP 50km solo attack. Without Pogacar going to those races it would be pretty boring and he saved whole spring season with his participations.

I don't think anyone said these classics would be better without him. Just for the record, most of these races were better because of MVDP as well. Certainly, however, stage races would be worse WITH him (and that was the main point).
No one said MSR or AGR were boring. I'm fairly sure most people would rate the races just as high had Pogacar won the sprints.

I'm sure most of the people would rate TdF very high if Pogacar wins it after a great battle (like 2022) as well.

 

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I don't think anyone said these classics would be better without him. Just for the record, most of these races were better because of MVDP as well. Certainly, however, stage races would be worse WITH him (and that was the main point).
No one said MSR or AGR were boring. I'm fairly sure most people would rate the races just as high had Pogacar won the sprints.

I'm sure most of the people would rate TdF very high if Pogacar wins it after a great battle (like 2022) as well.

Everybody rates TdF 2022 and TdF 2023 high (who is saying the opposite?) even without Pogacar winning it. I don't know how many of you watched TdF since 2000 but it was really rare that someone even tried something to get yellow jersey if they were three minutes behind. Fans wanted it so badly but rarely happened anything.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

A literal example from NvH is his claim that the viewership has dropped in the last week of the Giro due to Pogacar’s large lead. This is his subjective opinion, not an objective one (as actual data shows otherwise).

That is not "frustration ...turning into anger": it is a suggestion that many people prefer more competitive racing. If I say that I preferred watching the cyclocross events that Van Der Poel was not winning by a hug margin, that is not "frustration ...turning into anger", it is an opinion about what makes for good entertainment.

 

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I don't think anyone said these classics would be better without him. Just for the record, most of these races were better because of MVDP as well. Certainly, however, stage races would be worse WITH him (and that was the main point).
No one said MSR or AGR were boring. I'm fairly sure most people would rate the races just as high had Pogacar won the sprints.

I'm sure most of the people would rate TdF very high if Pogacar wins it after a great battle (like 2022) as well.

I agree with you MvDP made races also better. LBL would be also better, if Remco would be in really great form as MvDP was. So it's that Tadej's fault?Still Pogacar could just choose stage races which suited him better instead going to "MvDP terrain" and whole spring season would be realllly boring.

 

[YavorD]

I agree with you MvDP made races also better. LBL would be also better, if Remco would be in really great form as MvDP was. So it's that Tadej's fault?Still Pogacar could just choose stage races which suited him better instead going to "MvDP terrain" and whole spring season would be realllly boring.

Yes, I can agree that Pogacar deserves some credit for going to the Northern classics as they're definitely better with him and if you're going to criticise him for making the stage racing boring, you have to just as well praise him for his role in the Northern classics.

However, this doesn't mean that Giro 2024 wasn't boring (which prompted this conversation) and Giro 2025 may be better without him.

 

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That is not "frustration ...turning into anger": it is a suggestion that many people prefer more competitive racing. If I say that I preferred watching the cyclocross events that Van Der Poel was not winning by a hug margin, that is not "frustration ...turning into anger", it is an opinion about what makes for good entertainment.

It's not opinion if he is suggesting "fans" would be/are bored, because of his domination. Most watched stage last year was stage 20-he already had 8 minutes there. So it is not true and is based on his feelings-like FB people. Also i gave you a source and numbers, like you wanted and named former rider who rode against Pogacar. Those are facts, i would expect that former professionals would do the same and not throwing some comments which are not based on anything except there own feelings.

 

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Yes, I can agree that Pogacar deserves some credit for going to the Northern classics as they're definitely better with him and if you're going to criticise him for making the stage racing boring, you have to just as well praise him for his role in the Northern classics.

However, this doesn't mean that Giro 2024 wasn't boring (which prompted this conversation) and Giro 2025 may be better without him.

It was boring for you and that is pretty easy to understand why you think that, but numbers are saying people watched it more than years before(even when he already gained huge gap) . So looking all cyclist fans (and not just you) Giro 2024 was much more attractive than average Giro.

 

[YavorD]

It was boring for you and that is pretty easy to understand why you think that, but numbers are saying people watched it more than years before(even when he already gained huge gap) . So looking all cyclist fans (and not just you) Giro 2024 was much more attractive than average Giro.

But for how long people would watch something as predictable? How sustainable on the market a boring/predictable product is?

P..s, just because people watched it doesn't mean it wasn't boring, you know?
Many people watched Formula one in 2023 but I don't think it was thought to be interesting.

 

[AmRacer]

But for how long people would watch something as predictable? How sustainable on the market a boring/predictable product is?

P..s, just because people watched it doesn't mean it wasn't boring, you know?
Many people watched Formula one in 2023 but I don't think it was thought to be interesting.

Watching GREATs and GOATs doing their things is always fascinating.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

It's not opinion if he is suggesting "fans" would be/are bored, because of his domination. Most watched stage last year was stage 20-he already had 8 minutes there. So it is not true and is based on his feelings-like FB people. Also i gave you a source and numbers, like you wanted and named former rider who rode against Pogacar. Those are facts, i would expect that former professionals would do the same and not throwing some comments which are not based on anything except there own feelings.

It absolutely is an opinion, and even if it is a minority opinion, is in no way "frustration ...turning into anger". So are you going to defend the accusation that you made, or just duck out of it by moving the goalposts?

 

[YavorD]

P.s 2 "Viewing figures we high, so it wasn't boring" is a ridiculous take.
World Cup has a sky high figures, yet it doesn't mean every game is interesting.
Well, according to the logic of some fans in this thread, a 10:0 win in the World Cup final should be considered interesting because 3 billion people watched it, no?

 

[Peyroteo94]

Obviously false.

Tell me when they spoke about HTC being so dominant and how they should let breakaway riders win more

 

[AmRacer]

P.s 2 "Viewing figures we high, so it wasn't boring" is a ridiculous take.
World Cup has a sky high figures, yet it doesn't mean every game is interesting.
Well, according to the logic of some fans in this thread, a 10:0 win in the World Cup final should be considered interesting because 3 billion people watched it, no?

3 billion didn't watch a 10:0 win in the World Cup final.

 

[YavorD]

3 billion didn't watch a 10:0 win in the World Cup final.

Cause we never had a 10:0 win 😂. And I was speaking figuratively.

Point is, the World Cup final is (likely) the most watched single event (actual figure being ~1 billion).
And had Argentina beaten France by 6:0 no one in his right mind would say it wasn't boring because viewing figures were high.

 

[AmRacer]

Cause we never had a 10:0 win 😂. And I was speaking figuratively.

Point is, the World Cup final is (likely) the most watched single event (actual figure being ~1 billion).
And had Argentina beaten France by 6:0 no one in his right mind would say it wasn't boring because viewing figures were high.

Depends on which country you root for.

 

[Peyroteo94]

P.s 2 "Viewing figures we high, so it wasn't boring" is a ridiculous take.
World Cup has a sky high figures, yet it doesn't mean every game is interesting.
Well, according to the logic of some fans in this thread, a 10:0 win in the World Cup final should be considered interesting because 3 billion people watched it, no?

It wasn't NVH who brought the viewership argument in his opinion?

 

[Extinction]

What? Sprint stages with a break fighting for the stage would be way more exciting and woulf bring more audience for sure. So it's really the opposite. Less people sees flat stages because they are boring until the last 5 km.

Precisely, but sprint stages that end up in a crafty break foiling the sprint teams isn't what I was talking about, but GC stages. If you're really into cycling, even watching grass grow is a thrill, however, participating in one rider dominate every stage that counts for the overall win grows tedious fast for all but the most ardent of fans.

 

[YavorD]

Depends on which country you root for.

Then you would like the winner, not necessarily the game.
I preferred Roglic over Thomas in 2023, yet I don't think it was interesting. Nor I would say it was worse had Thomas won.

Okay, had Thomas won because of Roglic's problem it would've been much worse.

 

[Shortcut]

It absolutely is an opinion, and even if it is a minority opinion, is in no way "frustration ...turning into anger". So are you going to defend the accusation that you made, or just duck out of it by moving the goalposts?

It’s interesting that you’re accusing me of moving the goalposts, while there’s no chance you’ll admit even part of your own mistake, even though I gave you a source (which you asked for) and mentioned the name of a former cyclist whose claims are false. An opinion, in itself, can be anything someone says, and by that logic, you may be right—but the problem arises when an opinion is a lie, misleading, or even “spoken on behalf of fans.” (like he did and he didn't say minority opinion like you are trying to present it). That, to me, is frustration—and I hope it’s just frustration, because if it’s not, the alternative is even worse.
As for this discussion with you—will you continue the discussion with sources, facts, or just by accusing me of avoiding your comments, which are supported by nothing but feelings?

 

[AmRacer]

Then you would like the winner, not necessarily the game.
I preferred Roglic over Thomas in 2023, yet I don't think it was interesting. Nor I would say it was worse had Thomas won.

Okay, had Thomas won because of Roglic's problem it would've been much worse.

I like the game when my team wins.

 

[Shortcut]

P.s 2 "Viewing figures we high, so it wasn't boring" is a ridiculous take.
World Cup has a sky high figures, yet it doesn't mean every game is interesting.
Well, according to the logic of some fans in this thread, a 10:0 win in the World Cup final should be considered interesting because 3 billion people watched it, no?

Of course, a match that ends 10:0 would be much more interesting—if the winning team played as attractively as Pogačar attacks on the bike. It’s far more exciting than two teams just waiting for the other to make a mistake and ending the game 1:1 or 1:0…
As for your logic that viewership isn’t a good enough objective measure of a race’s “excitement”—what exactly would be a better metric? Can not watching a race ever be a better indicator of its excitement than watching it?

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

As for this discussion with you—will you continue the discussion with sources, facts, or just by accusing me of avoiding your comments, which are supported by nothing but feelings?

I have asked you for evidence of rivals of Pogacar showing "frustration ...turning into anger": you haven't even attempted to do so. Just as those claiming that van Hooydonck's comments have not cited evidence that they are "disrespectful of, yet alone hateful towards, Pogacar", nor provide examples of "other, worse things that Visma members have said".

I never claimed that Van Hooydonck's comments (which were phrased as a query, not a claim) about viewing figures were correct, so have no statistical position to verify. I said "many people will be more likely to watch races in which the result is finely balanced for longer": reading this forum shows that to be the case. Please do not misrepresent me.

It is not that I am asking you to respond to my comments: I am inviting you to justify your own. Which you, and others here, have still not even attempted to do.