Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[Gratemans]

Great comments, thoughtful. He makes the good point that in his opinion, it's the "right" of Roglic to be positioned to win. And history is history. Visma, the media all said Sepp was coming of age and that the win was deserved and not gifted.
Kuss was ready to take on bigger roles in leadership. The sound of crickets, Kuss has just not showed up, instead of leadership, his role as important lieutenant has been diminished. He is currently a non factor. And with crash calamity that is Jonas's recent racing, it would have been great for Visma to have proven powerful Primoz..
Jorgenson trying unsuccessfully to fill the void of the two leaders.

It was the right of Primoz to win imo. Or Vingegaard, or Kuss for that matter. I still firmly stand behind the "let's fight it out on the road!" premise. They buckled under (social) media pressure which I still think made the whole outcome pretty embarrassing.

But Roglic also doesn't strike me as the guy to slam his fist on the table and demand it. It was just a very weird situation how it all came together that Vuelta. But I also don't think there's really any bad blood between Primoz and Visma either. I just think it made Roglic realise that he had to move to another team to really have a go at the Tour one (or two) more times as the main man.

(I don't understand what you're trying to say in that bolded part though)

 

[Peyroteo94]

What is strange is how they allowed Vingegaard going away on Tourmalet and then it was all about Kuss after Angliru (what changed after Angliru?). Incoherent behaviour.

 

[Shortcut]

What is strange is how they allowed Vingegaard going away on Tourmalet and then it was all about Kuss after Angliru (what changed after Angliru?). Incoherence behaviour.

I find it funny how much comments i read "Jonas being great teammate because how he let Kuss win and prevented Roglic winning". Roglic was whole minute in front of him and then he was forced to let Jonas who wanted to win for NVH (didn't gain enough) and after that his daughters birthsday. Of course he attacked early enough to gain minute back even though it was clear that Roglic was much stronger since after someone else attacked on top of the climb, Roglic gained like a 30s in one km against Jonas. It was crazy that people forget like in a week what happened and were all about what a good guy Jonas is. After that race also started downfall for Visma.

 

[Peyroteo94]

I find it funny how much comments i read "Jonas being great teammate because how he let Kuss win and prevented Roglic winning". Roglic was whole minute in front of him and then he was forced to let Jonas who wanted to win for NVH (didn't gain enough) and after that his daughters birthsday. Of course he attacked early enough to gain minute back even though it was clear that Roglic was much stronger since after someone else attacked on top of the climb, Roglic gained like a 30s in one km against Jonas. It was crazy that people forget like in a week what happened and were all about what a good guy Jonas is. After that race also started downfall for Visma.

Roglic didn't have free rides like Vingegaard had IMHO. I will never criticize a rider like Vingegaard or Roglic for going all out to win but that didn't happen in the Vuelta due to Visma's preferences.

 

[Froome]

What is strange is how they allowed Vingegaard going away on Tourmalet and then it was all about Kuss after Angliru (what changed after Angliru?). Incoherent behaviour

Why are you talking about that in the thread of pogacar? Weird.

 

[Salvarani]

What is strange is how they allowed Vingegaard going away on Tourmalet and then it was all about Kuss after Angliru (what changed after Angliru?). Incoherent behaviour.

Definitely, but not surprising regarding that team.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Definitely, but not surprising regarding that team.

Yup. They should be honest and tell people they prioritized Vingegaard instead of Roglic. Roglic knew and this is why he left Visma.
But it's okay to stay with Vingegaard, he is better than Roglic and the only one able to win GTs against Pogacar.

 

[foxbat]

I find it funny how much comments i read "Jonas being great teammate because how he let Kuss win and prevented Roglic winning". Roglic was whole minute in front of him and then he was forced to let Jonas who wanted to win for NVH (didn't gain enough) and after that his daughters birthsday. Of course he attacked early enough to gain minute back even though it was clear that Roglic was much stronger since after someone else attacked on top of the climb, Roglic gained like a 30s in one km against Jonas. It was crazy that people forget like in a week what happened and were all about what a good guy Jonas is. After that race also started downfall for Visma.

this

 

[Salvarani]

Yup. They should be honest and tell people they prioritized Vingegaard instead of Roglic. Roglic knew and this is why he left Visma.
But it's okay to stay with Vingegaard, he is better than Roglic and the only one able to win GTs against Pogacar.

They kind of prioritized Vinge over Roglic on that cobbles stage in the 2022 Tour as well if we keeping it real.

Clear for everyone to see that Vinge was stronger in the Dauphine before it.

 

[Peyroteo94]

They kind of prioritized Vinge over Roglic on that cobbles stage in the 2022 Tour as well if we keeping it real.

Clear for everyone to see that Vinge was stronger in the Dauphine before it.

You are right. They also knew Vingegaard and Roglič's numbers so it is obviously they were supporting more Vingegaard because he was showing better numbers in training and the rider able to beat Pogacar.

 

[CyclistAbi]

At Visma spreadsheets prevailed, luckily such dilemmas are resolved agin now. Both Rogla and Jonas (and Pogi ...) can now race to the best of their ability and lets see on where that takes them.

 

[Peyroteo94]

At Visma spreadsheets prevailed, luckily such dilemmas are resolved agin now. Both Rogla and Jonas (and Pogi ...) can now race to the best of their ability and lets see on where that takes them.

Vingegaard already showed he is better than Roglic and in pure w/kg shows like Perthus

 

[Cycling111]

A neo-pro Pogacar (21) beat Roglic (at his peak) in a Tour de France. It's unrealistic to doubt that he's currently superior or that they can be tied.

 

[Peyroteo94]

A neo-pro Pogacar (21) beat Roglic (at his peak) in a Tour de France. It's unrealistic to doubt that he's currently superior or that they can be tied.

Only cyclingabi "thinks" that. Every other user here knows Vingegaard and Pogacar are superior.

 

[Cycling111]

Only cyclingabi "thinks" that. Every other user here knows Vingegaard and Pogacar are superior.

This can also be seen when comparing Ayuso with Pogacar.

Pogacar reached a level similar to Roglic when he was a neo-professional and Roglic was in his peak because of his age. Ayuso is tied with Roglic, but Ayuso is his fourth year and Roglic is veteran.
Although I'm not sure that Ayuso is really ready to beat Roglic in the Giro.

A second-year rider, and Tour de France rookie, beating another rider in his prime due to age.
If Pogacar was equal to Roglic then, it was clear that over the years he would surpass him when he reached his peak.

 

[Peyroteo94]

This can also be seen when comparing Ayuso with Pogacar.

Pogacar reached a level similar to Roglic when he was a neo-professional and Roglic was in his peak because of his age. Ayuso is tied with Roglic, but Ayuso is his fourth year and Roglic is veteran.
Although I'm not sure that Ayuso is really ready to beat Roglic in the Giro.

A second-year rider, and Tour de France rookie, beating another rider in his prime due to age.
If Pogacar was equal to Roglic then, it was clear that over the years he would surpass him when he reached his peak.

Tied? Until this moment, Roglic is superior to Ayuso. Maybe this will chsnge in this Giro but until now, Roglic is on a different level.

 

[Cycling111]

Tied? Until this moment, Roglic is superior to Ayuso. Maybe this will chsnge in this Giro but until now, Roglic is on a different level.

I say tied because we don't know the Giro result. But as I said, I don't see Ayuso beating Roglic in the Giro, much less gaining anything against Pogacar in a mountain stage like he did against Roglic in Volta.

Pogacar beat Roglic in the 2020 TDF, and some say they weren't even tied, andt Roglic was much better .
Not to mention the shitty team Pogacar had, who alt 21 did the Tour alone, he recovered a minute he lost in echelons because he had an accident. Roglic had a super team.
Pogacar arrived "tied" to the last stage with those conditions and Roglic with a super team, but they continue to say that Roglic was superior.
That's why I say that Ayuso is more or less equal to Roglic despite having lost the Volta.

For me, Ayuso isn't on par; he has to prove it at the Giro.
Just as Roglic wasn't superior to Pogacar when he couldn't beat him at the Tour de France when Pogacar was alone, without a team, and without experience. Given equal conditions, who knows what Pogacar would have been able to do at that TDF.

 

[Shortcut]

A neo-pro Pogacar (21) beat Roglic (at his peak) in a Tour de France. It's unrealistic to doubt that he's currently superior or that they can be tied.

That was not Roglic at his best shape ever. He crashed on Dauphine 3 weeks before TdF, that was also the reason, why he rode pretty conservative-just to win yellow. He never in millions years excepted Pogi could ride ITT like that(nobody could). I still think, he was easily stronger than Tadej that year but next year not any more.

 

[Peyroteo94]

I say tied because we don't know the Giro result. But as I said, I don't see Ayuso beating Roglic in the Giro, much less gaining anything against Pogacar in a mountain stage like he did against Roglic in Volta.

Pogacar beat Roglic in the 2020 TDF, and some say they weren't even tied, andt Roglic was much better .
Not to mention the shitty team Pogacar had, who alt 21 did the Tour alone, he recovered a minute he lost in echelons because he had an accident. Roglic had a super team.
Pogacar arrived "tied" to the last stage with those conditions and Roglic with a super team, but they continue to say that Roglic was superior.
That's why I say that Ayuso is more or less equal to Roglic despite having lost the Volta.


For me, Ayuso isn't on par; he has to prove it at the Giro.
Just as Roglic wasn't superior to Pogacar when he couldn't beat him at the Tour de France when Pogacar was alone, without a team, and without experience. Given equal conditions, who knows what Pogacar would have been capable of?

One more reason to say Roglic is better like we saw in Volta a Catalunya and previous races.

 

[Cycling111]

To think that Roglic is at a similar level today is unrealistic.
At Zurich, Roglic was Pogacar´s domestique. He doesn't do that if he sees himself at Pogacar´slevel.

Roglic left Visma because Visma prioritized Vingegaard.
He's below them in the TDF. Clinging to the idea that without accidents he'd be at their level is unrealistic.
Visma had the numbers and prioritized Vingegaard.

The UAE has the numbers of Ayuso and Pogacar, and Ayuso is given the B calendar.
If anyone leaves UAE, it will be Ayuso, they´ll prioritize Pogacar.

 

[Shortcut]

I say tied because we don't know the Giro result. But as I said, I don't see Ayuso beating Roglic in the Giro, much less gaining anything against Pogacar in a mountain stage like he did against Roglic in Volta.

Pogacar beat Roglic in the 2020 TDF, and some say they weren't even tied, andt Roglic was much better .
Not to mention the shitty team Pogacar had, who alt 21 did the Tour alone, he recovered a minute he lost in echelons because he had an accident. Roglic had a super team.
Pogacar arrived "tied" to the last stage with those conditions and Roglic with a super team, but they continue to say that Roglic was superior.
That's why I say that Ayuso is more or less equal to Roglic despite having lost the Volta.

For me, Ayuso isn't on par; he has to prove it at the Giro.
Just as Roglic wasn't superior to Pogacar when he couldn't beat him at the Tour de France when Pogacar was alone, without a team, and without experience. Given equal conditions, who knows what Pogacar would have been able to do at that TDF.

1)You forgot to mention Roglic crash before TDF (it was not even 100% he will start.
2)Tadej "didn't" have a team but was allowed to ride with Visma because they didn't see him as a problem.
3)He lost time on a stage with echelons, but was allowed to get time back(vs.Roglic) when he went and after the stage Roglic said "he will not chase Slovenian".

 

[Cycling111]

Having so many crashes in the TDF is no coincidence either. In that regard, he's also inferior to Pogacar and Vingegaard, who haven´t had DNFs in the Tour.
Some crashes are bad luck, but when cyclists like Vine have so many, it's not bad luck; that cyclist is inferior to others in their ability to avoid accidents or getting hurt when they occur.

To win the TDF, you have to be strong, but also handle the tricky French roads well and the nerves that surround that race compared to the Giro and the Tour.
Winning the TDF has always been more difficult due to these factors and the greater level of competition.
Hindley has a Giro, Valverde has the Vuelta. They haven't come close to winning the TDF.

By the way, UAE isn't taking Vine to the TDF despite him being one of their best climbers. Vine has a better w/k than some of his teammates who will be going to the TDF this year.
But they know Vine couldn't handle the difficulty of the TDF.

 

[Peyroteo94]

That was not Roglic at his best shape ever. He crashed on Dauphine 3 weeks before TdF, that was also the reason, why he rode pretty conservative-just to win yellow. He never in millions years excepted Pogi could ride ITT like that(nobody could). I still think, he was easily stronger than Tadej that year but next year not any more.

No he wasn't. His crash and consequent DNF in the Dauphine was cautioness. He still was better than everyone bar Pogacar just like we saw in the Dauphiné. It was Pogacar who made a huge improvement after Dauphiné (maybe talk to another part of the forum), everyone else performed in a similar pattern.

 

[Cycling111]

One more reason to say Roglic is better like we saw in Volta a Catalunya and previous races.

Don't just stay with that, read the whole message

The rest is like thinking that Rominger had a similar level to Indurain because Indurain won the TDF and Rominger the Vuelta and added GT each year.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Roglic didn't adopt a conservative way of riding in the Tour 2020 because of his crash. He always raced like this, in fact he is becoming more agressive while he is getting older. He simply underestimated Pogacar and got a reality check in the MTT (all of us got a reality check to be honest). In that moment, we saw Pogacar wasn't a normal TdF winner but was a generational talent and probably a future top10 GT riders of all times.