Question Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

It's about time we address Pogacars remarkable rise since he joined UAE in 2019.

His first season as a junior wasn't anything special, but we have to remember that he was born later in year (September) which is a disadvantage at that age.
In his second season he definitely proved his talent by winning the Giro della Lunigiana.
However, in the entire season he only won two stages and never put any distance on his competitors.
His time trial abilities were less impressive. A 25th and 68th spot.

His first season as a U23 rider wasn't too great either.
He won a few youth jerseys, but didn't record a single stage win.

His second season was definitely better, but still hit and miss.
He won the Tour de l'Avenir, but didn't record a stage win.
He also finished 7th at the WC road race.
Promising, but not exceptional.

Then he moved to UAE. Its CEO is Mauro Gianetti, possibly the dirtiest rider and sports director in history.
Suddenly he started to win stage races (Algarve, California, and individual mountain stages in the Vuelta against the likes of Valverde and Roglic.
He also became a much better time trialist beating Mohoric and Tratnik in the Slovenian championship.

Give me a break.
 
BTW, what's up with the voting up or down of answers and why bother? :p
I find it so annoying and unnecessary that I just took it upon myself to go through the thread and give everyone with a downvote (all from the same person. I checked) an upvote, just to undo the grumpy-ass work of our resident sourpuss. Didn't even read the posts first.

This is The Clinic. If half-arsed accusations aren't your cup of tea, I'd suggest leaving.

EDIT: He voted this post down. Boohoo, whatever will I do? :cry:
 
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Well, i did make that comment before knowing he broke the record of Vino/Mayo. But, it appears that indeed the wind was very advantageous today, and we're only first week still. I can imagine they would do the same climb noticeably slower in week 3.

My main issue is, that i believe that the number of people in the clinic threads who actually know what they are talking about, is negligible. I certainly do not count myself as one of them, but i can easily tell people are quick to draw conclusions, when it concerns a rider they don't like. This entire subforum is riddled with hypocrisy. Pointing fingers at one rider, but not another, all for the sake of a clean sport. Right. This irks me to no end and i've tried to ignore the clinic many times in the past, but once every few months something draws my attention, and it's usually the same crap. But maybe tomorrow we'll be able to post a funny tweet by Vayer to make it all worthwhile.
 
Reactions: Cookster15
They didn't do the 11km route today, they did

I'd take the climbing records times with a pinch of salt. They approached it differently this year. This year the total climbing distance was certainly not the 11.7km claimed there, it was only 9.6km. When Vino did it in 2003 it was 13km. Even if that's all just typos and they timed from the same ending km on the climb, the riders have already climbed different distances before the timer started anyway.
Wrong.
View: https://twitter.com/faustocoppi60/status/1302285125418393603

Confirmed by Lanterne Rouge.
https://www.strava.com/segments/25598682
 
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TT results in the last two years:

5th, 18th, 1st, 11th, 1st, 1st

I think you have pretty high standards for what a specialist is if a 21 year old with those results doesn't count.
Counting both Slovenian nationals which were against b/c-tier ITT'ers last year, and a specific mountain ITT right after lockdown this year isn't exactly helping your case. And todays win is exactly the one under scrutiny, so i wouldn't really add that to the list to prove he was a good ITT'er before today.
 
If it were genuine super talent he'd have shown more of that genuine super talent of putting minutes into world class ITTers before today. Genuine super talent doesn't crush and I mean crush records of riders who have doped before him.
He's 21 and has just won the Tour de France, and you don't think he is a super talent? His performance and progression is pretty much exactly in line with what I'd expect for a once in a generation talent. Which again, does not mean that I think he's necessarily clean.

But if you don't think Pogacar is super talented, then what exactly do you think, that he's an average donkey using some super fuel that no-one else (including no-one else on his own team) can get hold of?

Because that would be like the kind of butthurt argument fans make just because their favourite has been beaten.
 
Well, I don't know what are your standards but if a rider who finishes 5th in a 2.1 race as the Tour of Slovenia (with some decent names like Majka, Haig, Polanc, Cunego, Visconti, etc. riding) in their first U23 year and has a consistent year with 21 top-10 has, in your opinion, a season that "wasn't too great either", well you can only be satisfied with someone like Evenepoel.

I don't want to comment about his rise as I don't have any negative opinion of it, but since I first saw results of Pogacar as a junior I always considered him a pretty big prospect for the future and had his name under my radar since at least 2016.
 
Gianetti's heritage:
As a rider he nearly died in 1998 because he experimented with PFC.

His main achievements as a manager:
2007: Mayo: EPO
2008: Ricco and Piepoli: Cera
2009: Fernandez de la Puebla: EPO
2011: Cobo (abnormal values in biological passport)

https://www.bikeradar.com/news/blog-gianetti-is-ingrained-with-doping/

Why are Armstrong and Bruyneel banned from the sport while this guy can still be general manager of a cycling team?
 
I think it's a bit harsh calling his 2017-18 as hit and miss. He won the biggest junior race in the world, while riding for a very small team. Of course his TTing and general level is going to take a big step up when he leaves a CT to join a World Tour team with much better coaching, facilities and equipment.
 
I have my own doubts (as posted in the Doping in Austria-thread). But I have to ask, Gunther, are you not a big Evenepoel-fan? Or am I mixing you up? 'Cause if it's just that you don't want any other young rider to take Remco's spotlight...
 
If destroying Mayo (!) and Vinokourov (!!) time on Peyresourde is not suspicious then I don't know what is.
Look I love Pogi and hope he wins the Tour, but that time and those watts are suspicious by default.
Fair enough, but Landa, Porte, Quintana and Roglic were also faster than Mayo & Vino. Which means there might have been other factors at play, maybe wind or something.
 
Reactions: Cookster15
Michelle Ferrari himself called Mayos and Bin s ascent die n 2003 remarkable with a Van of 1800. You can still find IT ob his Homepage. And yet here comes ich He 2020 peleton and absolutely destroys the super chargef 2003 Legends. Yeah nothing to See here
It isn't really a direct comparison though, even ignoring variables like the weather and tactics. In 2003 they started the climb from Luchon; that's 4km of climbing more than from the Port de Bales turn off.

So the 2003 time was really the last 25 minutes of a 35ish minute effort. And it was the sixth categorized climb of the day, not the third.
Which is not to say that Pogacar's climbing time isn't still really, really fast. Just that it's misleading comparing it directly with 2003.
 
Reactions: gregrowlerson
It isn't really a direct comparison though, even ignoring variables like the weather and tactics. In 2003 they started the climb from Luchon; that's 4km of climbing more than from the Port de Bales turn off.

So the 2003 time was really the last 25 minutes of a 35ish minute effort. And it was the sixth categorized climb of the day, not the third.
Which is not to say that Pogacar's climbing time isn't still really, really fast. Just that it's misleading comparing it directly with 2003.
Yeah, but that's also ignoring they've done the Peyresourde straight after Bales multiple times and gone 2 full minutes slower most times
 
Reactions: red_flanders
No IT IS Not. Obviously Pogacar isn't the only who is on the new stuff. Nobody Claims that. But You can't be AS blind Not to realize that 1850+ Vam in a less then 8 percent climb over more than 20 minutes has hardly ever happened. If It Has happened at all.
I'm not going to draw conclusions from one data point. If the same pattern of super fast climbing times repeats throughout the race, then I agree then something looks to be up. But there are so many other factors that can influence the times other than doping, that it's ridiculous to jump to conclusions based on one climb.
 
WADA admitted that they did 95% less testing durning the various lockdowns and the ongoing pandemic, so I don't think that we need a new wonder drug to explain the climbing speeds and results.
The riders could prepare and load up durning that time, there was pretty much no random drug testing/ooc testing at all.
If that's the case then it's surprising that there hasn't been a random no-name turning up in monster shape. Someone who did a Riis/Ricco and really pushed the boat out with what they were taking. But pretty much all riders at the sharp end are reasonably well established.
 
Reactions: gregrowlerson
No IT IS Not. Obviously Pogacar isn't the only who is on the new stuff. Nobody Claims that. But You can't be AS blind Not to realize that 1850+ Vam in a less then 8 percent climb over more than 20 minutes has hardly ever happened. If It Has happened at all.
Pogacar's VAM is 1841. So it has happened before on Hautacam in 1996. In contrast, Quintana and Roglic managed 1787 VAM.

But I really think the wind was advantageous on Peyresourde. You have to consider that it is a climb where you head the same direction for most of the time - only the last three switchbacks were without direct tailwind.

The circumstances of the performance make it a lot less suspicious than if it had been achieved later in the race and with less advantageous wind conditions.
 
It isn't really a direct comparison though, even ignoring variables like the weather and tactics. In 2003 they started the climb from Luchon; that's 4km of climbing more than from the Port de Bales turn off.

So the 2003 time was really the last 25 minutes of a 35ish minute effort. And it was the sixth categorized climb of the day, not the third.
Which is not to say that Pogacar's climbing time isn't still really, really fast. Just that it's misleading comparing it directly with 2003.
DFA has made some good points in this thread. In addition to that:

The 2003 and 2007 climbs came much later in the race. In 2007 they climbed Perysourde the stage after PDB, which was crazy hard/fast.

This year it was only the third and final climb of the day, and the peloton soft pedalled a great deal for the first two-thirds of the stage. Would have Peters or whatever his name is, been able to win the same stage in 2003?

Also, most of us had just finished our complaining about how incredible slowly that stages 5 and 6 had been ridden.

Overall distances of stages are also a little less these days, or at least they seem to be. Maybe riding 20-30 kms less each day adds up.

And multi mountain Pyrenean stages were usually 50 kms longer, so it would make sense that riders are fresher now when approaching the Perysourde.

That probably doesn't explain the full 50 seconds, but maybe some of it?

It would be interesting to know what the wind conditions were like in other years on this climb.
 
How do you conclude that?
I never created a thread in the clinic*, but that doesn't automatically mean I believe Bernal (or any rider for that matter) is clean. It doesn't work this way.

*as far as I can remember
I don't actually conclude that, i'm playing devil's advocate. It's a fallacy to show that people will make a clinic topic out of personal preference and not out of facts. There is no other way to explain why one rider gets a thread, and the other doesn't for a much more remarkable feat. That was the point. Furthermore the explanation held no water, since at the time he made the comment, neither Pog nor Bernal had a clinic topic to begin with.
 

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