Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[pastronef]

TP really never sees a stage he doesn't like. It's wild.

I'm amazed that road cycling seems to have a new, young-ish fan base who are either clueless or purposefully blind to the PEDs usage going on. (This is purely my viewpoint from comments on vlogs, blogs, articles, etc. Skepticism seems to be gone in a new, younger generation of road cycling fans.)

this year is my 30th TDF and I enjoy every race.
you say clueless or purposefully blind about new young fans. do you think all the people on the roads in the Basque Country are young fans? no. they are people of every age enjoying the sport without constantly thinking about doping.
one can be skeptic and yet enjoy it, without throwing gratuitous accusation. I mean do I know if Pog is doped? I don't. I can't know. am I aware of the grey area athletes can use in their favour? yes.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

TP really never sees a stage he doesn't like. It's wild.

I'm amazed that road cycling seems to have a new, young-ish fan base who are either clueless or purposefully blind to the PEDs usage going on. (This is purely my viewpoint from comments on vlogs, blogs, articles, etc. Skepticism seems to be gone in a new, younger generation of road cycling fans.)

There's a large group of fans that realize that doping is common but still are able to enjoy cycling. I myself had 3 phases of cycling following:
1) Widespread doping denial - I realized that it's there but thought that only some use them (rotten apples)
2) Struggling with accepting the reality - I found it a bit hard to support certain cyclists when I realized that most of them dope (esp. after Operation Puerto in 2006).
3) Accepting the reality and enjoying top-fuel racing.

 

[Rackham]

There's a large group of fans that realize that doping is common but still are able to enjoy cycling. I myself had 3 phases of cycling following:
1) Widespread doping denial - I realized that it's there but thought that only some use them (rotten apples)
2) Struggling with accepting the reality - I found it a bit hard to support certain cyclists when I realized that most of them dope (esp. after Operation Puerto in 2006).
3) Accepting the reality and enjoying top-fuel racing.

My first real Tour which I followed religiously as a kid was the last 'innocent' one, i.e. 1997, where supermen performed miracles on a bike & wowed everyone.

Then the next one (1998) was the big awakening. Yep, everyone doped. But I found the whole sport just too damn entertaining (including the cloak & dagger arms race) so I kept on watching.

Here we are 25 years later with the current era of supermen. It's not much different from 1997 tbh. It certainly feels that way, i.e. there's a collective innocence regarding the stuff that truly fuels these riders (I mean we know they're on something but we don't exactly know what). That probably also contributes to some mysticism of sorts right now as well. Like the million dollar question being "what the hell did Pog do on LPDBF in 2020 & how the hell did Jumbo create their own version with Vingegaard?".

It's just my opinion but if & when this blows up (if at all), the moment the 'secret' is out (EPO being the main one in the 1990's), all the associated performances & athletes will lose some of their lustre. Pantani's Alpe d'Huez record for example had real mystique. But once we realized what he had flowing through his veins... it lost a bit of its charm, even though it really was bloody amazing, irrespective of the dope.

 

[pastronef]

My first real Tour which I followed religiously as a kid was the last 'innocent' one, i.e. 1997, where supermen performed miracles on a bike & wowed everyone.

Then the next one (1998) was the big awakening. Yep, everyone doped. But I found the whole sport just too damn entertaining (including the cloak & dagger arms race) so I kept on watching.

Here we are 25 years later with the current era of supermen. It's not much different from 1997 tbh. It certainly feels that way, i.e. there's a collective innocence regarding the stuff that truly fuels these riders (I mean we know they're on something but we don't exactly know what). That probably also contributes to some mysticism of sorts right now as well. Like the million dollar question being "what the hell did Pog do on LPDBF in 2020 & how the hell did Jumbo create their own version with Vingegaard?".

It's just my opinion but if & when this blows up (if at all), the moment the 'secret' is out (EPO being the main one in the 1990's), all the associated performances & athletes will lose some of their lustre. Pantani's Alpe d'Huez record for example had real mystique. But once we realized what he had flowing through his veins... it lost a bit of its charm, even though it really was bloody amazing, irrespective of the dope.

I don't remember now, but I probably became aware he set the Alpe record as late as the early 2010's when I began reading twitter and the Clinic. it hasn't lost charme for me. he did it.
I became interested in doping probably after the Lance confession. in 1998 I was pissed Festina got busted, I liked them. Puerto didn't bother me that much, even though I was looking forward to Ullrich going full speed and Mancebo too.

 

[Cookster15]

My first real Tour which I followed religiously as a kid was the last 'innocent' one, i.e. 1997, where supermen performed miracles on a bike & wowed everyone.

Then the next one (1998) was the big awakening. Yep, everyone doped. But I found the whole sport just too damn entertaining (including the cloak & dagger arms race) so I kept on watching.

Here we are 25 years later with the current era of supermen. It's not much different from 1997 tbh. It certainly feels that way, i.e. there's a collective innocence regarding the stuff that truly fuels these riders (I mean we know they're on something but we don't exactly know what). That probably also contributes to some mysticism of sorts right now as well. Like the million dollar question being "what the hell did Pog do on LPDBF in 2020 & how the hell did Jumbo create their own version with Vingegaard?".

It's just my opinion but if & when this blows up (if at all), the moment the 'secret' is out (EPO being the main one in the 1990's), all the associated performances & athletes will lose some of their lustre. Pantani's Alpe d'Huez record for example had real mystique. But once we realized what he had flowing through his veins... it lost a bit of its charm, even though it really was bloody amazing, irrespective of the dope.

My first real Tour which I followed religiously was 1993 (Indurain vs Rominger). That was when EPO was in full swing. All my friends who followed cycling back then knew the pros all doped - it was just accepted. My views on doping are that fair competition and rider safety is maintained. The problem is where do we draw the line on what is fair?

Conditions, wind and race circumstances differ but Alpe d'Huez times provide a good reference point for the level of doping in the peloton. This is because that climb is always timed accurately every TdF it is used and it is always raced hard. Back in 2018 when we were all complaining about Sky, Geraint Thomas won in about 41 minutes. Last year with Vingo/Pog/Thomas (39'12") was the first time anyone climbed faster than Carlos Sastre in 2008. But even if we remove Pantani's times as outliers, Alpe d'Huez times have risen by about 2 or3 minutes since Pantani - despite all the sports science, and bike development. So doping controls work even if they don't eliminate doping.

On Pogacar, he came under Gianetti's influence in 2019. But he has very good results before then. In 2018 he won lots - example, Tour de l'Avenir when he beat riders like Arensmen, Almeida and Gina Mader (RIP). Pogacar's record shows strong results since 2016. It is also difficult to know what is doping and how much is simple natural progression and better training.

 

[Red Rick]

I have no *** idea why people suddenly stopped thinking critically and started pretending nothing fishy was going on.

Feels like it died with the last Ineos controversy. "Yup Ineos era is over. All the dodgy things ended"

 

[Netserk]

[Alpe d'Huez] is always raced hard. Back in 2018 when we were all complaining about Sky, Geraint Thomas won in about 41 minutes.

2018 is a good example of the opposite. It was a controlled pace, and they even waited after Nibali crashed and broke his back. In the end, he finished only 13'' behind Thomas. The day before on an easier MTF, Thomas dropped him by nearly a minute.

Quintana was full gas on Alpe d'Huez, Sastre likewise. Vingegaard and Pogi could have done it faster last year.

 

[Cookster15]

2018 is a good example of the opposite. It was a controlled pace, and they even waited after Nibali crashed and broke his back. In the end, he finished only 13'' behind Thomas. The day before on an easier MTF, Thomas dropped him by nearly a minute.

Quintana was full gas on Alpe d'Huez, Sastre likewise. Vingegaard and Pogi could have done it faster last year.

Yes 2018 was strange that Sky didn't set a harder tempo. Regarding Quintana, he only managed 42:03 that year - going full gas? No doubt Vingegaard and Pogi could have done it faster last year as in the same group were Sep Kuss, Enric Mas and old man Thomas.

Top 200 fastest climbs on the Alpe d'Huez [All-time list] [2022 update] - Cycling Passion

L'Alpe d'Huez is a legendary climb. It used regularly in the Tour de France. Here are the top 200 fastest climbs by bicycle on the Alpe d'Huez.

cycling-passion.com

 

[Netserk]

Quintana in 2015, like Sastre in 2008 went full gas. When the best climber in the race finishes in a group, it indicates that the best rider didn't do the climb as fast as possible.

Sky's strategy was straightforward after Thomas took yellow: Get Froome on the podium too.

 

[pastronef]

I have no *** idea why people suddenly stopped thinking critically and started pretending nothing fishy was going on.

Feels like it died with the last Ineos controversy. "Yup Ineos era is over. All the dodgy things ended"

well, many anti-Ineos seem to be ok with Roglic and Vinge and WVA. they like them and Jumbo.

 

[Nick2413]

Is there such thing as a doping drawing board? Could Pogacar and his team still have a chance to pull a PDBF on every major stage and flip the table?

 

[meat puppet]

Some boost. Dropped a bag already?

 

[Peyroteo94]

I'm a big fan of him but this looked a transfusion of fresh blood performance. Just like Contador in the good old days

 

[IndianCyclist]

He has done this again but coming back from the dead is like having the resurrection potion.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Orange juice for more power, good sleep for regeneration and voila! Not a Fiat anymore but Lamborghini!

 

[wickedw]

This is the second time in a short period where I see a UAE rider drop and lose over a minute, only to destroy the entire field the next day.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

I guess he simply forgot to visit the cryo chamber after stage 4, but now he's back to his normal mutant level again. The fight is on!

 

[Rob5091]

This is the second time in a short period where I see a UAE rider drop and lose over a minute, only to destroy the entire field the next day.

It's the porridge.

 

[Rackham]

I'm a big fan of him but this looked a transfusion of fresh blood performance. Just like Contador in the good old days

All things being equal (i.e. PED abuse to the point of comedy), I think the Tour just had one of its best stages in many, many years.

I do love when a carefully executed, extremely ambitious, master plan of total cycling... goes totally to sh*t because Jumbo for some bizarre reason had no idea what Vingegaard's limits were. The best comedy moment was that little part when Vingegaard & WvA actually dared ask Pog to do a turn on the front of the group after the descent of the Tourmalet.

I mean people in the cycling business are free to apparently seek the limits of human physical capabilities with extreme performance enhancing programs but their brains clearly aren't getting the same improvements. It was gloriously stupid & I loved it.

 

[GuntherL1]

Are you not entertained? Just yesterday Pogi was the victim of a lingering injury and bad preparation, which was reversed in... less than 24 hours.

 

[Mayomaniac]

One bad day and the next day he's already swimming with the Fishy and beating him.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

I'm a big fan of him but this looked a transfusion of fresh blood performance. Just like Contador in the good old days

My exact thought!! If this were 2006, I would absolutely bet anything in the world, that Teddy took a bag last night...however, I think maybe there is a 2023 equivalent. Waiting to see the climbing times from today. It looked thermonuclear.

 

[Unterlenkerfahrend]

Yeah, normally I'm not a fan of armchair medical analysis (I believe him and Jonas are both juicing just in a more nuanced way) but the classical BB came instantly to my mind after that performance. Yesterday should've suited him way more and he got dunked on and then today he was suddenly comfortable (his own words) on Tourmalet today with Jonas pushing insane numbers in altitude.
It's amusing because it was clear that Jumbo did not expect that at all, they must've been absolut confident that he would drop in these 15 minutes monster pace on Tourmalet.

 

[argyllflyer]

48.4km to go today, 1.3km to the top... watch the headshake from the Movistar rider as they rocket past.

 

[Mayomaniac]

My exact thought!! If this were 2006, I would absolutely bet anything in the world, that Teddy took a bag last night...however, I think maybe there is a 2023 equivalent. Waiting to see the climbing times from today. It looked thermonuclear.

Doing a Stelvio Dennis/Peyragudes McNulty, even if that usually involves supercharging a domestique who is now suddenly flying.