Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[ThisFrenchGuy]

I guess Pogacar wasn't so tired after all.
Penultimate stage and the Tour largely sorted for almost everyone, obviously.

If you do like if Vingo doesn't exist, I guess the time gaps between him and the rest of the Top 10 look almost normal (and half of that is just the ITT). Then again he was supposedly diminished this year...

 

[lenric]

is the dude going to the vuelta?

 

[SHAD0W93]

is the dude going to the vuelta?

Doesn’t sound like it. Just one day races from the last thing we heard.

 

[iceblink]

is the dude going to the vuelta?

Nah, he clearly busted out the last good blood bag this season for stage 20 in France

 

[Vudy]

Nah, he clearly busted out the last good blood bag this season for stage 20 in France

Yeah, if TJV lend him the ones that they clearly still have, he would go to the Vuelta.

 

[topt]

Nah, he clearly busted out the last good blood bag this season for stage 20 in France

perhaps Froome or Bennett have some left ....

 

[topt]

Do we even know what he's produced in some other bike races? Didn't he absolutely a smoke MvdP at Flanders basically a head-to-head time trial?

perhaps cause he is a better TTer than MVDP

 

[Aimar16]

Do we even know what he's produced in some other bike races? Didn't he absolutely a smoke MvdP at Flanders basically a head-to-head time trial?

I wouldn't say he smoked him. He gained about 10 seconds in the last 13 kilometres

 

[Ripper]

perhaps cause he is a better TTer than MVDP

I wouldn't say he smoked him. He gained about 10 seconds in the last 13 kilometres

He convincingly beat an on form vdP who has his own clinic thread for some pretty unbelievable performances. But the fact remains, do we actually know what pog is currently capable of on a great day? And the context is all the doom and gloom that pog would never match Vogoman.

Pogoman was absolutely smashing people and riding away virtually at will up till LBL. I think it safe to say his form and preparations were not 100% for the Tour. Vogoman's definitely were (as his alien performances demonstrated)

 

[ice&fire]

I wouldn't say he smoked him. He gained about 10 seconds in the last 13 kilometres

To be accurate he gained about 10 seconds on the moto in front of VDP

 

[Aimar16]

To be accurate he gained about 10 seconds on the moto in front of VDP

I advise you to watch that race again. MvdP had no moto in front of him to help him in the last 13 kilometres. There is no doubt that he got help on the short flat section between Oude Kwaremont and Paterberg. Pog actually lost some of the time he gained on Oude Kwaremont. At the top of Paterberg he had a 15 second lead, and I think he had a maximum 25 second advantage on the flat section after that.

He convincingly beat an on form vdP who has his own clinic thread for some pretty unbelievable performances. But the fact remains, do we actually know what pog is currently capable of on a great day? And the context is all the doom and gloom that pog would never match Vogoman.

Pogoman was absolutely smashing people and riding away virtually at will up till LBL. I think it safe to say his form and preparations were not 100% for the Tour. Vogoman's definitely were (as his alien performances demonstrated)

You write this as Pog is just winning for fun, and MvdP didn't smash him on Poggio

 

[ice&fire]

I advise you to watch that race again. MvdP had no moto in front of him to help him in the last 13 kilometres. There is no doubt that he got help on the short flat section between Oude Kwaremont and Paterberg. Pog actually lost some of the time he gained on Oude Kwaremont. At the top of Paterberg he had a 15 second lead, and I think he had a maximum 25 second advantage on the flat section after that.

So he was exhausted of trying to distance the moto and still gained 10 seconds

 

[Ripper]

I advise you to watch that race again. MvdP had no moto in front of him to help him in the last 13 kilometres. There is no doubt that he got help on the short flat section between Oude Kwaremont and Paterberg. Pog actually lost some of the time he gained on Oude Kwaremont. At the top of Paterberg he had a 15 second lead, and I think he had a maximum 25 second advantage on the flat section after that.



You write this as Pog is just winning for fun, and MvdP didn't smash him on Poggio

I'm not sure what your point is other than to argue?

Pogoman was absolutely smashing people for fun this year. There was some serious race domination going on, which I am quite sure you are aware of.

 

[theyoungest]

You write this as Pog is just winning for fun, and MvdP didn't smash him on Poggio

Wow, you managed to find the one race where he didn't dominate this spring

VDP vs. Pog on the Poggio is like Pog vs. Vingegaard on the Grand Colombier. The more explosive rider vs. the rider with more endurance. The Poggio obviously isn't hard enough for Pogi, relative to Van der Poel. Like the Grand Colombier isn't hard enough for Vingegaard, relative to Pogi.

 

[topcat]

Wow, you managed to find the one race where he didn't dominate this spring

VDP vs. Pog on the Poggio is like Pog vs. Vingegaard on the Grand Colombier. The more explosive rider vs. the rider with more endurance. The Poggio obviously isn't hard enough for Pogi, relative to Van der Poel. Like the Grand Colombier isn't hard enough for Vingegaard, relative to Pogi.

So what you’re saying is they’re all mutant but have slightly different dna.

 

[theyoungest]

So what you’re saying is they’re all mutant but have slightly different dna.

Even if you believe everyone is on doping, they still have mutual differences (of course).

 

[topcat]

Even if you believe everyone is on doping, they still have mutual differences (of course).

Let’s just take those 3 cyclists. I’m a fan of MVDP and not of the other 2.
Those 3 fail the most accurate test in life-the eyeball test.

 

[Aimar16]

So he was exhausted of trying to distance the moto and still gained 10 seconds

MvdP got one and a half kilometres of moto assistance. Why are you so angry about this? It didn't really change anything. If you rewatch the race you will see that after Paterberg Pog got much more motor help than MvdP got before

I'm not sure what your point is other than to argue?

Pogoman was absolutely smashing people for fun this year. There was some serious race domination going on, which I am quite sure you are aware of.

Of course, his winning record this year is very impressive. But he's only won 1 race where someone from the "big six" participated in decent form.
Spanish races in February - no competition
Paris-Nice - Vingegaard was then taken out of hibernation mode
Milan-Sabremo - MvdP smashed him
E3 Harelbeke - MvdP and WvA beat him
Flandres - Big win, but it was not easy and not fun
Amstel Gold Race - no competition + significant help from the race director
Fleche Wallonne - no competition
TdF - massive beating from Vingegaard

If only one person from the "big six" starts in a race, it doesn't matter which one: Pog, Vingegaard, Remco, Rog, WvA or MvdP then the outcome is quite predictable. So I don't see Pogacar dominating.

 

[SHAD0W93]

MvdP got one and a half kilometres of moto assistance. Why are you so angry about this? It didn't really change anything. If you rewatch the race you will see that after Paterberg Pog got much more motor help than MvdP got before

Paris-Nice - Vingegaard was then taken out of hibernation mode

This is taken out of hibernation mode when he absolutely dominated a week before?

23.02 » 26.02			O Gran Camiño (2.1)
	1		Mountains classification
	2		Points classification
	1		General classification
26.02	1		Stage 4 (ITT) - Novo Milladoiro › Santiago de Compostela
25.02	1		Stage 3 - Esgos › Rubiá (Alto do Castelo)
24.02	1		Stage 2 - Tui › A Guarda (Monte Trega)
23.02	NR		Stage 1 - Muralla de Lugo › Sarria

Vinge was cofavorites with Pog before and during Paris-Nice.

 

[Aimar16]

This is taken out of hibernation mode when he absolutely dominated a week before?

23.02 » 26.02			O Gran Camiño (2.1)
	1		Mountains classification
	2		Points classification
	1		General classification
26.02	1		Stage 4 (ITT) - Novo Milladoiro › Santiago de Compostela
25.02	1		Stage 3 - Esgos › Rubiá (Alto do Castelo)
24.02	1		Stage 2 - Tui › A Guarda (Monte Trega)
23.02	NR		Stage 1 - Muralla de Lugo › Sarria

Vinge was cofavorites with Pog before and during Paris-Nice.

High quality starting list with a bunch of ProTeams and Continental teams - https://www.procyclingstats.com/race/gran-camino/2023/startlist

Sure, before the race, he was the bookies' co-favourite with Pogacar. If I remember correctly, though, Vingegaard was the bigger favorite because of TTT. However, I don't see the reason why this is an argument now, as it was pretty clear that Pogacar was in decent shape ahead of the classics while Vingegaard was just building himself up.

Somehow I doubt that Vauquelin and Paret-Peintre are now a Tour contender because they climbed like Vingegaard at Paris-Nice - https://www.procyclingstats.com/race/paris-nice/2023/stage-4

 

[SHAD0W93]

Because just like fans of MVDP, anytime Vinge loses he’s building up his form and isn’t in shape when before the race all we heard is he’s in good shape.

 

[Ripper]

MvdP got one and a half kilometres of moto assistance. Why are you so angry about this?

Who's angry?

I think you are missing the context of my response to the poster.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

MvdP got one and a half kilometres of moto assistance. Why are you so angry about this? It didn't really change anything. If you rewatch the race you will see that after Paterberg Pog got much more motor help than MvdP got before

Of course, his winning record this year is very impressive. But he's only won 1 race where someone from the "big six" participated in decent form.
Spanish races in February - no competition
Paris-Nice - Vingegaard was then taken out of hibernation mode
Milan-Sabremo - MvdP smashed him
E3 Harelbeke - MvdP and WvA beat him
Flandres - Big win, but it was not easy and not fun
Amstel Gold Race - no competition + significant help from the race director
Fleche Wallonne - no competition
TdF - massive beating from Vingegaard

If only one person from the "big six" starts in a race, it doesn't matter which one: Pog, Vingegaard, Remco, Rog, WvA or MvdP then the outcome is quite predictable. So I don't see Pogacar dominating.

I think you missed the basic concept here and just generalized big6. Does Vinge win one-day races? Does MVP win stage races?
Pog was winning all kind of races in the spring - from crushing a stage race monster (Vinge) in PN to beating a classics legend in the making (MVP) in Flandres.
This is unique as Pog is one of a kind rider. The level he shows in various types of races (both one-day races and stage-races, even at this lost Tour) is not normal. This also means that he's possibly the biggest mutant out there (with strong clinical implications OFC).

 

[Aimar16]

Who's angry?

I think you are missing the context of my response to the poster.

I understood the context, but what you and the other poster claimed was factually incorrect despite the other poster constantly moving the goalposts. So I guess you guys are angry about something..

First claim: Pog absolutely a smoke MvdP at Flanders basically a head-to-head time trial - not true, gained 10 seconds over 13 kilometres.
Second claim: OK, but there was a moto in front of MvdP - not true, at this point there was no moto in front of MvdP, before Paterberg got a little help
Third claim: OK, but then Pog should have been tired and still gained time - again, MvdP only got moto help for a short time, and after Paterberg there was almost always a moto in front of Pogacar, and never in front of MvdP

Because just like fans of MVDP, anytime Vinge loses he’s building up his form and isn’t in shape when before the race all we heard is he’s in good shape.

Surely, it would be ridiculous to claim that Pogacar was in god mode in March and beat the Tour version of Vingegaard.

I think you missed the basic concept here and just generalized big6. Does Vinge win one-day races? Does MVP win stage races?
Pog was winning all kind of races in the spring - from crushing a stage race monster (Vinge) in PN to beating a classics legend in the making (MVP) in Flandres.
This is unique as Pog is one of a kind rider. The level he shows in various types of races (both one-day races and stage-races, even at this lost Tour) is not normal. This also means that he's possibly the biggest mutant out there (with strong clinical implications OFC).

I don't understand which part is not normal. A one-day race or stage-race is the same thing, a bike race. You are either good at cycling or you are not. If you are good, it's just a question of whether you want to win or not. Remco also wins monuments and other one-day races, as does Roglic. People have become very narrow-minded under the dominance of Armstrong and SkyBots which seems to be the approach that Vingegaard is taking, fortunately others like Remco and Pog are on a different path. By the way, Pog only beat MvdP once in a one-day race when it counted. MvdP beat him in Milan-Sanremo, Strade Bianche, last year on Flanders....

and people should be chill about Paris-Nice. Even Gaudu finished ahead of Vingegaard. In the first mountain stage, Vingagaard finished with the likes of Vauquelin and Paret-Peintre. Enough said. Whatever the reason Vingegaard was there, the goal was certainly not to win. When you talk about the stage-race monster you are confusing Vingegaard with Roglic imo

 

[roundabout]

Vingegaard blew up trying to follow Pogacar when he finished with Vauquelin.

I am sure that he was trying to win.

Edit: watching the highlights on youtube Vingegaard was actually the first to attack on Loge des Gardes

Edit 2: obviously the Paris-Nice Vingegaard was not the best Vingegaard, but I think he did try to win