Question Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[GuntherL]

It's about time we address Pogacars remarkable rise since he joined UAE in 2019.

His first season as a junior wasn't anything special, but we have to remember that he was born later in year (September) which is a disadvantage at that age.
In his second season he definitely proved his talent by winning the Giro della Lunigiana.
However, in the entire season he only won two stages and never put any distance on his competitors.
His time trial abilities were less impressive. A 25th and 68th spot.

His first season as a U23 rider wasn't too great either.
He won a few youth jerseys, but didn't record a single stage win.

His second season was definitely better, but still hit and miss.
He won the Tour de l'Avenir, but didn't record a stage win.
He also finished 7th at the WC road race.
Promising, but not exceptional.

Then he moved to UAE. Its CEO is Mauro Gianetti, possibly the dirtiest rider and sports director in history.
Suddenly he started to win stage races (Algarve, California, and individual mountain stages in the Vuelta against the likes of Valverde and Roglic.
He also became a much better time trialist beating Mohoric and Tratnik in the Slovenian championship.

Give me a break.

 

[roundabout]

There is a big gap between winning and having Terpstra take your lunch money (as happened to Nibali) with 2 climbs still to go.

 

[Aimar16]

There is a big gap between winning and having Terpstra take your lunch money (as happened to Nibali) with 2 climbs still to go.

One of the guy had more than a decade of experience in this kind of races, was specifically focused on this race, and the other guy saw on TV that it is a fun race and tried it out

 

[Pirazziattacks]

Nibali finished 24th and 1:18 behind the winner in his first Flanders. Until 25km he was riding with all the favourites and basically initiated the winning attack. Despite not doing any preparation, any of the usual pre-Flanders build-up race, his last race was Milan-Sanremo and he was pretty much practicing for the cobbled stage of the Tour de France there. But still finished with teammates Colbrelli (Roubaix winner) and Haussler (2nd in Flanders). With proper preparation he could have easily stayed at least in the group of favourites with Sagan, Gilbert, van Avermaet, van Baarle... It was not just his first Flanders, it was his first cobbled classic. But folks are saying GC guy wouldn't stand a chance here...

Nice wall of text, at least go with a decent example like Valverde finishing in the top 10 at Flanders. Anyway you're so far off the mark you may as well be on a different planet- https://www.procyclingstats.com/article/how-rare-are-gc-riders-in-the-tour-of-flanders

No one since Merckx has been able to do the Flanders/TDF podium combo, and no one's got anywhere near it since the 80s. Give it up.

 

[roundabout]

One of the guy had more than a decade of experience in this kind of races, was specifically focused on this race, and the other guy saw on TV that it is a fun race and tried it out

Pogacar did 1 previous cobbled classic (which doesn't even have Oude Kwaremont and Paterberg) and was sprinting for the win in his first Ronde going head-to-head with the best on the bergs.

 

[magliaroz]

Generational talent, guys. The only problem is that there's seems to be a overabundance of them in recent years...

 

[Aimar16]

No one since Merckx has been able to do the Flanders/TDF podium combo, and no one's got anywhere near it since the 80s. Give it up.

This is probably the dumbest statistic in the world. If none of the TdF podium finishers start at the Tour of Flanders then of course they won't be on the podium. Genius

Pogacar did 1 previous cobbled classic (which doesn't even have Oude Kwaremont and Paterberg) and was sprinting for the win in his first Ronde going head-to-head with the best on the bergs.

I think he forgot to sprint, tho

 

[topcat]

View: https://youtu.be/VjEq-r2agqc

 

[Extinction]

Nibali finished 24th and 1:18 behind the winner in his first Flanders. Until 25km he was riding with all the favourites and basically initiated the winning attack. Despite not doing any preparation, any of the usual pre-Flanders build-up race, his last race was Milan-Sanremo and he was pretty much practicing for the cobbled stage of the Tour de France there. But still finished with teammates Colbrelli (Roubaix winner) and Haussler (2nd in Flanders). With proper preparation he could have easily stayed at least in the group of favourites with Sagan, Gilbert, van Avermaet, van Baarle... It was not just his first Flanders, it was his first cobbled classic. But folks are saying GC guy wouldn't stand a chance here...

Nibali was a guy who crushed it on the cobbles of the 2014 Tour, but Nibali isn't Pogacar. The difference between arriving at 1:18 behind and soloing against MVDP for the Flanders win in 2023 is an abyss.

 

[Aimar16]

Nibali was a guy who crushed it on the cobbles of the 2014 Tour, but Nibali isn't Pogacar. The difference between arriving at 1:18 behind and soloing against MVDP for the Flanders win in 2023 is an abyss.

Again, Pogacar has done his homework and has actually prepared for Flanders. In his second year of trying he managed to win his first and only cobbled race. Whereas Nibali was like, okay, here's the race, let's try it and that was it for his entire cobbled classic career.

Some of the guys, like Pirazziattacks, have such silly arguments that no one has done anything like Pogacar since the 80s or something. It's like alternative cycling is history and for a significant portion of that timeframe, the top finishing riders in the Tour de France didn't spend their time in the spring filling the fridge with blood bags instead of achieving results.

It is easy to look like a generational talent when the 5-6 generations before you have archived nothing.

 

[Extinction]

Again, Pogacar has done his homework and has actually prepared for Flanders. In his second year of trying he managed to win his first and only cobbled race. Whereas Nibali was like, okay, here's the race, let's try it and that was it for his entire cobbled classic career.

Some of the guys, like Pirazziattacks, have such silly arguments that no one has done anything like Pogacar since the 80s or something. It's like alternative cycling is history and for a significant portion of that timeframe, the top finishing riders in the Tour de France didn't spend their time in the spring filling the fridge with blood bags instead of achieving results.

It is easy to look like a generational talent when the 5-6 generations before you have archived nothing.

Right, so Nibali didn't "prepare", except all pro cyclists are prepared. It's their livelyhood, but Nibali happens to be an excellent bike handler and has a big engine to boot. Yet, had he specifically prepared, I wouldn't have bet on him to beat MVDP almost on his first attempt, let alone defeat him so spectacularly on his second. You are peeing in the wind.

 

[Pirazziattacks]

This is probably the dumbest statistic in the world. If none of the TdF podium finishers start at the Tour of Flanders then of course they won't be on the podium. Genius

In other words, you didn't read the article.

 

[Aimar16]

Right, so Nibali didn't "prepare", except all pro cyclists are prepared. It's their livelyhood, but Nibali happens to be an excellent bike handler and has a big engine to boot. Yet, had he specifically prepared, I wouldn't have bet on him to beat MVDP almost on his first attempt, let alone defeat him so spectacularly on his second. You are peeing in the wind.

1) 23-year-old has done his winter training/early spring races to be at his peak for the classics
2) 34-year-old who hadn't raced for two weeks, saw that there is a race in Belgium the day before the Itzulia and was like, let's fly to Spain later and I'm going to participate in my first cobbled classic

If you don't see a difference, it's time to see a doctor.

Don't tell me that peak Nibali, who schedules his best form for the April classics, wouldn't have been much better than 2018's who was still in contention for the win until 20km.

Saw him in the 2014 TdF's Arenberg stage on wet cobbles where not only did he thrash the other GC contenders, but he and Fuglsang beat Sagan and Cancellara by almost a minute. If in his peak years Nibali had concentrated on being in the best possible shape at the time of Flanders, he would surely have been in contention for the win. Period.

 

[roundabout]

There was talk of Nibali doing the Ronde even before the New Year 2018 and there is nothing in the news that I can find that he came to do the race on a whim like you seem to suggest.

 

[Extinction]

1) 23-year-old has done his winter training/early spring races to be at his peak for the classics
2) 34-year-old who hadn't raced for two weeks, saw that there is a race in Belgium the day before the Itzulia and was like, let's fly to Spain later and I'm going to participate in my first cobbled classic

If you don't see a difference, it's time to see a doctor.

Don't tell me that peak Nibali, who schedules his best form for the April classics, wouldn't have been much better than 2018's who was still in contention for the win until 20km.

Saw him in the 2014 TdF's Arenberg stage on wet cobbles where not only did he thrash the other GC contenders, but he and Fuglsang beat Sagan and Cancellara by almost a minute. If in his peak years Nibali had concentrated on being in the best possible shape at the time of Flanders, he would surely have been in contention for the win. Period.

You are insane if you believe Nibali went to that Flanders on a whim. It was in the making for a few seasons, his form was very good since MSR. And there is an abyss between a Tour cobbled stage and Paris-Roubaix. Cancellara was on domestique duties. You seem to have a fundamental problem with context, other than me needing a doctor.

 

[Aimar16]

There was talk of Nibali doing the Ronde even before the New Year 2018 and there is nothing in the news that I can find that he came to do the race on a whim like you seem to suggest.

Even if there was talk of him starting during the off-season, knowing that there would be a Roubaix stage at the TdF, he was definitely not in top form and not taking it too seriously.

You are insane if you believe Nibali went to that Flanders on a whim. It was in the making for a few seasons, his form was very good since MSR. And there is an abyss between a Tour cobbled stage and Paris-Roubaix. Cancellara was on domestique duties. You seem to have a fundamental problem with context, other than me needing a doctor.

He was in amazing form after two weeks of not racing and being a donkey in the Basque race.

Cancellara must be the worst domestique in the world, as he is constantly riding in a different group than his teammates and finishes more than three minutes ahead of the team leader

Casually three Astana guys rides away from the 'domestique' Cancellara and the extra-motivated Sagan, who would have had a great chance of taking the yellow jersey on this stage.

 

[Andy schleck]

I give you Lombardy because it's good for climbers (still one day effort is different than stage races). But Flandres, Liege, Amstel, Strade, Fleche? Races completely different from Lombardy (all won by Pog). Vinge even didn't bother to go to Ardennes classics this year (the team had no leader so he could but it's not his cup of tea). It's not simply about will but about abilities (that I already explained in the previous post and won't repeat myself). The same was with Contador and Froome, stage race monsters but no achievements in classics. Obviosly abilities and will are connected - if you have lower abilities in some races then your will to take part is lower so you prioritize other events.

It's difficult to find another rider with such great classics abilities like Pog, who is able to fire 6.5 w/kg for half an hour at the end of a difficult stage or even distance Vingegaard (a climbing monster, maybe the best in this century) on a difficult Pyrenean stage. Such riders happen sometimes: it's not a norm but exception though. And they are among best ever.

Vingegaard in top shape could do something on fleche wallone, lombardia and in the new 5th monument classica san sebastian(very similar to some stages of pays basque that he won). Maybe also something on LBL, but anyways he would lose in the final sprint.

Flandres and paris roubaix it would be impossible. He's just 58/59 kg.

I think he could finish with the best in some of this one day races, but he would lose in the sprint.

I think he has the abilities to show something in this one day races after he showed that he can be in good shape in spring this year. He can push many watts in short efforts.

 

[fbjim]

Vingegaard is probably the odds on favorite for Paris-Roubaix, as he is already a better roleur than Fabian Cancellara.

 

[magliaroz]

Pogacar was apparently feeling sick after the race. I know Giannetti is not above putting results over health, but maybe they are pushing this guys body too much to the limit now.

 

[Salvarani]

Pogacar was apparently feeling sick after the race. I know Giannetti is not above putting results over health, but maybe they are pushing this guys body too much to the limit now.

Not saying he isnt on some stuff.... but I have sure felt sick after a race, where I went deep.

 

[NFTtiddies]

Not saying he isnt on some stuff.... but I have sure felt sick after a race, where I went deep.

Yeah you can tell by his eyes in this interview Youtube interview.

Compared to Wout and MVDP it's night and day.

 

[noob]

Yeah you can tell by his eyes in this interview Youtube interview.

Compared to Wout and MVDP it's night and day.

Guys I just watched the interview :O I thought you maybe exaggerated, but now I have watched it OMG! He looks like a ghost! Grey face, trying to hide behind the cap and shivering allover! And his eyes! So gaunt! I really hope he gets some rest!

 

[carolina]

He just needs some food, it's normal to feel exausted after such a race.

 

[The Clogger]

An extra large bowl of porridge and he will be ready for the ITT. Gianetti style.

 

[Aimar16]

Yeah you can tell by his eyes in this interview Youtube interview.

Compared to Wout and MVDP it's night and day.

Maybe because the other two had the world championship as one of their main goals for the season, while until a few days ago it was not even certain that Pogacar would start. As he went full throttle for three weeks on the Tour, in contrast MvdP only used it for preparation and WvA left early..

 

[Cookster15]

An extra large bowl of porridge and he will be ready for the ITT. Gianetti style.

Nothing Gianetti dreams up is going to make Pog capable of overcoming the fatigue he is now experiencing. It was impressive that he was able to podium. Pog might finish top 5 in TT I just hope he doesn’t end up with a prolonged illness.