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Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

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We have seen Vingegaard-like mutants in the past. Basically just the newest version of the good old special july juice. Even better than the best of the best of the blood doping/EPO peak but with a similar build up.
Whatever Pogacar is doing is different. His "base" juice doesn´t work like the traditional methods. And compared to the EPO/blood guys he doesn´t need to get off the juice or reduce the load (for health reasons). Can do it all season long.
 
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Again, Pogacar has done his homework and has actually prepared for Flanders. In his second year of trying he managed to win his first and only cobbled race. Whereas Nibali was like, okay, here's the race, let's try it and that was it for his entire cobbled classic career.

Some of the guys, like Pirazziattacks, have such silly arguments that no one has done anything like Pogacar since the 80s or something. It's like alternative cycling is history and for a significant portion of that timeframe, the top finishing riders in the Tour de France didn't spend their time in the spring filling the fridge with blood bags instead of achieving results.

It is easy to look like a generational talent when the 5-6 generations before you have archived nothing.
Your counter argument is flawed. It may well be the truth that GT or Tour winners don't start Flanders because they don't see even a point in riding it (to train or to win it). So yes, Pogi starting and going for podium is remarkable and is a good indicator of how he is a generational talent.
 
Your counter argument is flawed. It may well be the truth that GT or Tour winners don't start Flanders because they don't see even a point in riding it (to train or to win it). So yes, Pogi starting and going for podium is remarkable and is a good indicator of how he is a generational talent.

Of course, Pogacar's results are remarkable. It's just pointless to compare Pogacar to the GT winners from the past. Because no one or very few have tried what he has done, and we don't know what they would have achieved in races they didn't prepare for or didn't start.

There have already been whispers that Remco will be starting at Flanders in the near future. When he get a reality check from Vingegaard later in the month, these efforts will accelerate imo.

I believe that the future generation of GT contenders will be more like Pogacar than Vingegaard and their racing calendar will be much more varied than we've seen in the last 30 years.
 
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So Pogi is showing he is human. But its about time we revisited when Pogačar started working with Gianetti compared to his career trajectory. Pogačar didn't start riding for Gianetti until 2019. He had strong results before then and he was still very young. Lequack's opening post in his PRR thread dated 27 April, 2018 does a good job of reminding of his obvious talent before he worked with Gianetti:


In 2018 he won Tour de l'Avenir by almost 1 and a half minutes, came 4th in Tour of Slovenia. He was only 19 years old then and this was before he rode under Gianetti.
So I say the OPs opening line is hyperbole:
It's about time we address Pogacars remarkable rise since he joined UAE in 2019.

What remarkable rise? He had done plenty before he arrived at UAE - he was super young then. The OP doesn't seem to be aware riders usually get stronger at that age - we all do. So whilst I don't doubt he is boosted Pogacar ain't no Froome (or Vingegaard for that matter).
 
What remarkable rise? He had done plenty before he arrived at UAE - he was super young then. The OP doesn't seem to be aware riders usually get stronger at that age - we all do. So whilst I don't doubt he is boosted Pogacar ain't no Froome (or Vingegaard for that matter).
I tend to agree. I put him in a similar class as Evenepoel and VDP. There's clearly some natural talent there (maybe not as much as the other two I mentioned, but still something) and qualities that can't be explained away with just doping.
He also seemed a bit of a late bloomer, physically. If you look at pictures of him in 2018 he still looked like a child, compared to some U23 and even Juniors that already look like grown men, so I guess this could partially explain such a "late" explosion in results.
But still, performances like the ones he showed in TdF and Ronde are not the result of eating all his veggies and breathing fresh slovenian air.
 
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There's clearly some natural talent there (maybe not as much as the other two I mentioned

In your opinion, what is it about Remco that makes him a better natural talent than Pog? There's roughly a year between them, but looking at the results, they may not even be in the same league.

Btw, does anyone have any experience of how bad or good that taiwanese Gusto bike that Pog raced on in the small continental Slovenian team is? Watching videos of the Tour de l'Avenir he looks like he was on a kid's bike compared to the others.
 
In your opinion, what is it about Remco that makes him a better natural talent than Pog? There's roughly a year between them, but looking at the results, they may not even be in the same league.
Remco also lost a year due to his crash and imho QS *** up his 2021 big time.
Remco is the better TT rider between them and I suspect he may have an edge in long, hard races over Pog but we don' t have enough material to judge (I hope to see both of them race MSR and LBL next year, and we will see then).

They both have talents, but in different areas, I guess? I also think that Pogi right now has access to a better "special fuel" than Remco, but the Belgian may have had an early start considering where he is from. So who knows what their "natural" value really is.
 
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He also seemed a bit of a late bloomer, physically. If you look at pictures of him in 2018 he still looked like a child, compared to some U23 and even Juniors that already look like grown men, so I guess this could partially explain such a "late" explosion in results.
I mostly agree with your post but I don’t think we can call Pog a late bloomer? He is still only 24 . That was my point he showed great results from a very young age and this was well before Mr Gianetti got hold of him.
 
Btw, does anyone have any experience of how bad or good that taiwanese Gusto bike that Pog raced on in the small continental Slovenian team is? Watching videos of the Tour de l'Avenir he looks like he was on a kid's bike compared to the others.
They aren‘t bad bikes, open mold carbon frames from a factory that also makes other carbon frames for different companies. Jai Hindley rode one to 5th at the 2016 Tour de l'Avenir
 
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So Pogi is showing he is human. But its about time we revisited when Pogačar started working with Gianetti compared to his career trajectory. Pogačar didn't start riding for Gianetti until 2019. He had strong results before then and he was still very young. Lequack's opening post in his PRR thread dated 27 April, 2018 does a good job of reminding of his obvious talent before he worked with Gianetti:


In 2018 he won Tour de l'Avenir by almost 1 and a half minutes, came 4th in Tour of Slovenia. He was only 19 years old then and this was before he rode under Gianetti.
So I say the OPs opening line is hyperbole:


What remarkable rise? He had done plenty before he arrived at UAE - he was super young then. The OP doesn't seem to be aware riders usually get stronger at that age - we all do. So whilst I don't doubt he is boosted Pogacar ain't no Froome (or Vingegaard for that matter).

Pogacar lo scorso anno ha conquistato, praticamente da solo, il Tour de l’Avenir 2018 dell’anno scorso destando l’attenzione della UAE:

“Quello che ha fatto al Tour de l’Avenir dimostra come sia adatto ai grandi giri. Con noi ha firmato già un anno e mezzo fa, è uno dei grandi prospetti del ciclismo mondiale e siamo contenti di essere stati i primi a metterci gli occhi addosso” ha proseguito Gianetti.

Pogacar won last year's 2018 Tour de l'Avenir virtually single-handedly, attracting the attention of the UAE:

"What he did at the Tour de l'Avenir shows how he is suited for the big tours. He signed with us a year and a half ago, he is one of the great prospects of world cycling and we are happy to have been the first to set our eyes on him," Gianetti continued.

Just like Ayuso, Pogi was also secured by UAE long before he started racing for them.
 





Just like Ayuso, Pogi was also secured by UAE long before he started racing for them.
Thanks for this. So Pog was a long term project once Gianetti identified him as a good responder? This has parallels with Vingegaard, except Pog was discovered at a younger age.
 
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Pogacar said in an interview in 2019 that he joined the UAE because they approached him first

I mention to Pogačar that when I spoke to their head Directeur Sportif, Gorazd Štangelj, a few days prior, he had expressed disappointment at having missed out on the rider’s signature.

Pogačar is quick to dismiss the suggestion that he ought to have joined Bahrain. It was, he says, simply a case of first come, first served:

“When UAE-Emirates contacted me it was two years ago. Bahrain-Merida was a fresh team and they didn’t show any interest, so… they were too late.”

Personal relationships seem to have come into it as well. Pogačar is looking forward to linking up with his friend Jan Polanc – “it’s really great because we understand each other” – who happens to be the son of Ljubljana’s sports director Marko Polanc.

By the way, I'm pretty sure all the guys who have shown potential have been in talks with WT teams and have pre-contracts and such, long before any official contracts are announced. I doubt teams are randomly signing 19 or 20 year old guys in August every year.

If Giannetti had some magic juice, he pushed it all into Pogacar to win that U23 race, because the WT team was pretty lame. 12 wins in 2018, including two UAE national championships :) Most of the wins came from star signing Kristoff, but he also fell short of the Katusha level. Other star signing Aru was a flop. The younger guys like Mohoric, Ganna, Philipsen have done significantly better in other teams...
 
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Pogacar said in an interview in 2019 that he joined the UAE because they approached him first



By the way, I'm pretty sure all the guys who have shown potential have been in talks with WT teams and have pre-contracts and such, long before any official contracts are announced. I doubt teams are randomly signing 19 or 20 year old guys in August every year.

If Giannetti had some magic juice, he pushed it all into Pogacar to win that U23 race, because the WT team was pretty lame. 12 wins in 2018, including two UAE national championships :) Most of the wins came from star signing Kristoff, but he also fell short of the Katusha level. Other star signing Aru was a flop. The younger guys like Mohoric, Ganna, Philipsen have done significantly better in other teams...
Magic juice can only do so much!
 
Even if there was talk of him starting during the off-season, knowing that there would be a Roubaix stage at the TdF, he was definitely not in top form and not taking it too seriously.



He was in amazing form after two weeks of not racing and being a donkey in the Basque race.

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Cancellara must be the worst domestique in the world, as he is constantly riding in a different group than his teammates and finishes more than three minutes ahead of the team leader
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Casually three Astana guys rides away from the 'domestique' Cancellara and the extra-motivated Sagan, who would have had a great chance of taking the yellow jersey on this stage.
Nibali had an excellent base after MSR, used Basque Country to get the engine running again. You don't know Nibali, his then trainer's approach and philosophy....in short, you are talking nonsense (again). As far as Cance, he was never riding for the win on the Tour cobbled stage, was in a completely different race mode and duty. Nice try, but you fail.
 
Nibali had an excellent base after MSR, used Basque Country to get the engine running again. You don't know Nibali, his then trainer's approach and philosophy....in short, you are talking nonsense (again).

Dude. You never give up?

How will Vincenzo Nibali prepare for this big event and what will his next few months be like?
As reported by La Gazzetta dello Sport, tomorrow the Shark will fly to Innsbruck to test the World Championship circuit together with Pellizzotti, De Marchi, and CT Cassani. Then back home and on 29 March departure for the North where he will test three Scultura frames, the mechanical version of DuraAce, and Fulcrum 40 millimetre carbon wheels while there is a doubt about the tubulars (26 or 28 millimetres). The preparation has not been targeted for the Ronde, but in the latest outings he will focus on short, explosive climbs. Enzo will also be at the start of the Tour of the Basque Country (2-7 April), then the Amstel Gold Race (15 April), Fleche Wallonne (18) and Liège-Bastogne-Liège (22): will he be able to break the bank at the Decana after the bitterness of 2012?
The Classics of the North will be followed by a break to then prepare for the Tour de France: first a high altitude workout in Teide from 14 to 29 May followed by the Tour of Dauphiné, then either another training camp at Passo San Pallegrino with participation in the National Championships or the Adriatica Ionica.

This is not an 'excellent base' and basically no preparation for Flanders. Not only was he a complete ass in the Basque race, but he was also bad in the Ardennes. His peak was Milan-Sanremo. Slongo also said Nibali pushed more watts on the Poggio attack than on the failed winning move at Flanders.

As far as Cance, he was never riding for the win on the Tour cobbled stage, was in a completely different race mode and duty. Nice try, but you fail.

You probably don't watch cycling and are completely clueless if you think that Cancellara (or Sagan) wasn't riding for the win here.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVWkmNgfWmw&t=6103s


Cancellara didn't have a WvA-type role, I explained it to you in the previous post, he was going for the stage win. So go away troll.

As the race wound down to the crucial kilometers a group of 16 emerged - the strong, but also the lucky, who managed to survive the tumultuous conditions. Fabian Cancellara was there, but it would be Lars Boom (Belkin) who would launch the winning move, surging ahead on the penultimate sector of cobbles with three Astana riders for company, including Nibali.
“Rasty [Gregory Rast] helped me a lot," Cancellara said. "The problem was there was always a gap because someone was tired, or slipped a bit, and you could not pass him on the cobbles. When the three Astanas and Boom went, this is what happened. Also, on wet cobbles it is very different, you cannot use a high cadence like when it’s dry, how I like to do.
"It was already a situation where I was pulling, and when they went everyone was looking at me and Peter [Sagan] to do the work. Just me and Peter could not make the difference, so I had to calculate my energy. I did not want to pull, pull, pull and then the others pass me at the end, so I had to manage myself and play a bit or otherwise I would have been even more behind. Hey, chapeau to Astana who did a fantastic ride – they honored the yellow jersey.”
Trek Factory Racing, like all teams, understood the weight of today’s stage, where the Tour could easily be lost. The team plan had Markel Irizar designated to help Haimar Zubeldia, and Gregory Rast playing double duty by assiting Fränk Schleck while also aiding Cancellara.
 

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