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Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

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Dude. You never give up?





This is not an 'excellent base' and basically no preparation for Flanders. Not only was he a complete ass in the Basque race, but he was also bad in the Ardennes. His peak was Milan-Sanremo. Slongo also said Nibali pushed more watts on the Poggio attack than on the failed winning move at Flanders.



You probably don't watch cycling and are completely clueless if you think that Cancellara (or Sagan) wasn't riding for the win here.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVWkmNgfWmw&t=6103s


Cancellara didn't have a WvA-type role, I explained it to you in the previous post, he was going for the stage win. So go away troll.





Dude, nobody said Nibali went into Flanders optimally prepped, but he didn't go just to show up (my point). And you conveniently left out the line after the one you bolded, about, under Slongo's direction, him focussing on short uphill efforts. That's Flanders prep. The Basque race was merely to get hammered to get the legs turning with power again, to something near MSR form.

Secondly, not only did I not say Cance was doing the Tour stage for the win, but that he wasn't (and in the Tour, if you don't ride for the stage win, you help the team in whatever capacity you are able, light dom or heavy dom duties, as the case may be). Roubaix was a completely different affair for him.

I don't watch cycling? I've probably been watching cycling since before you were born; and I've probably lived in Italy since before you were born too, thus I know the Italian reports in Italian. You are peeing in the wind with me.

Hence the original point about Pog's exceptional quality to win monuments and GTs, is in no way diminished by Nibali 's fair performance in Flanders under the conditions in which he entered that race (but he wasn't then riding against a top forma MVDP). After all Nibili had a big engine and could hold position in tight quarters exceptionally well, two qualities fundamental to riding well in Flanders. But the difference between what Nibili achieved and Pog (riding a fantastic MVDP off his wheel for the solo win), is an abyss. If you think otherwise, there is much to learn about cycling.
 
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let's see

Nibali (and Fuglsang and Boom) crushed the usual suspects that 1 day in July so if only Nibali would have optimally prepared he could have won (I guess) the Ronde

Boom finished 6th in the Ronde once and I don't remember him being close to winning

Nibali and Fuglsang did the Ronde once each and finished in the 2nd big group

neither returned since

the simplest explanation is that they perhaps understood that they do not have the power output on the Oude Kwaremont to compete against the best and an alternative 1-100 chance of escaping ala Gilbert and holding on is also too much of a longshot

The alternative is that they left a Ronde win on the table since apparently being very good in the Ronde and then in the Tour is not a big deal and a bit of extra attention and preparation would have been enough
 
let's see

Nibali (and Fuglsang and Boom) crushed the usual suspects that 1 day in July so if only Nibali would have optimally prepared he could have won (I guess) the Ronde

Boom finished 6th in the Ronde once and I don't remember him being close to winning

Nibali and Fuglsang did the Ronde once each and finished in the 2nd big group

neither returned since

the simplest explanation is that they perhaps understood that they do not have the power output on the Oude Kwaremont to compete against the best and an alternative 1-100 chance of escaping ala Gilbert and holding on is also too much of a longshot

The alternative is that they left a Ronde win on the table since apparently being very good in the Ronde and then in the Tour is not a big deal and a bit of extra attention and preparation would have been enough

You are aware that Nibali took part in his first and only Ronde in 2018 at the age of almost 34, right? That TdF stage was four years earlier. There weren't many opportunities to go back there, except for 2019. 2020 was around the same time as the Giro, and then the guy got old and declined, no?

Somehow I doubt that the Shark was scared by a 3.5% climb.
 
You are aware that Nibali took part in his first and only Ronde in 2018 at the age of almost 34, right? That TdF stage was four years earlier. There weren't many opportunities to go back there, except for 2019. 2020 was around the same time as the Giro, and then the guy got old and declined, no?

Somehow I doubt that the Shark was scared by a 3.5% climb.

There was no serious talk of Nibali going back after 2018 as far as I am remember.

Also there was no serious talk about Nibali doing the Ronde before 2018 despite crushing most of the cobbled riders in the Tour.

Maybe he wasn't scared of the Oude Kwaremont, but getting decisively dropped there by 10 people in 2018 probably was something to think about in terms of future plans of doing the Ronde.

I think I'd rather trust Nibali in terms of assessing what was realistic to win, i.e. Sanremo and Liege in the spring (even though I thought that Sanremo was a bit too much) and what was not over your 'he could have won the Ronde, but never bothered to'.
 
Maybe he wasn't scared of the Oude Kwaremont, but getting decisively dropped there by 10 people in 2018 probably was something to think about in terms of future plans of doing the Ronde.

Don't you think that the fact that he had done the winning move (for Terpstra) before also played a part in that. Slongo claimed 650 watts for 15 seconds during that attack. Nibali regretted the attack after the race because without it he could easily have stayed in the group of favourites and fought for a top 10 finish.
 
Pogacar said in an interview in 2019 that he joined the UAE because they approached him first



By the way, I'm pretty sure all the guys who have shown potential have been in talks with WT teams and have pre-contracts and such, long before any official contracts are announced. I doubt teams are randomly signing 19 or 20 year old guys in August every year.

If Giannetti had some magic juice, he pushed it all into Pogacar to win that U23 race, because the WT team was pretty lame. 12 wins in 2018, including two UAE national championships :) Most of the wins came from star signing Kristoff, but he also fell short of the Katusha level. Other star signing Aru was a flop. The younger guys like Mohoric, Ganna, Philipsen have done significantly better in other teams...
Wasn't Hauptman already part of the UAE team? I think that played a role in Tadej joining them.

UAE changed drastically after getting rid of Saronni and Matxin and Giannetti joined forces in his place. Mohoric, Ganna and Aru were all under the old administration, before the new pancake recipe was found. Philipsen was not doing bad but clearly UAE was not going to build a team around a sprinter for GTs so he left.
 
Don't you think that the fact that he had done the winning move (for Terpstra) before also played a part in that. Slongo claimed 650 watts for 15 seconds during that attack. Nibali regretted the attack after the race because without it he could easily have stayed in the group of favourites and fought for a top 10 finish.

Terpstra caught and passed the group ahead and extended the gap on the Kwaremont to the favorites group behind after chasing alone for those 8-9 minutes after he dropped Nibali.

Nibali supposedly got fried by a single attack.

Thanks for inadvertently highlighting the huge gulf that Nibali would have needed to overcome to be actually able to win Ronde.

Also, source for Nibali claiming that he could have easily stayed with the favorites on the Kwaremont without his attack?

The mere fact the wanted to anticipate and attacked before the Kwaremont would suggest a lack of confidence in staying with the best.
 
Wasn't Hauptman already part of the UAE team? I think that played a role in Tadej joining them.

I think Hauptman got there after Pogacar, during 2019

UAE changed drastically after getting rid of Saronni and Matxin and Giannetti joined forces in his place. Mohoric, Ganna and Aru were all under the old administration, before the new pancake recipe was found. Philipsen was not doing bad but clearly UAE was not going to build a team around a sprinter for GTs so he left.

That comment was in reaction to someone mentioning that Pogacar was already in contact with the UAE before his official signing and it was suggested that Pogacar's junior career was fueled by Giannetti. I just mentioned that the UAE was one of the worst performing WT teams at the time.

There's no question that since then the UAE has come up with some very effective stuff

Terpstra caught and passed the group ahead and extended the gap on the Kwaremont to the favorites group behind after chasing alone for those 8-9 minutes after he dropped Nibali.

Nibali supposedly got fried by a single attack.

Thanks for inadvertently highlighting the huge gulf that Nibali would have needed to overcome to be actually able to win Ronde.

Also, source for Nibali claiming that he could have easily stayed with the favorites on the Kwaremont without his attack?

I don't have a direct quote, but I don't think it's a made-up one
After the race finished and Nibali looked back at that attack, he said that he wished he would have just stuck with Peter Sagan’s group because he could have fought for a placing. Instead, after Terpstra surged, Nibali’s legs melted and could no longer allow him to stick with the favorites’ group. He finished the day 26th.


Everyone is moving the goalposts here. I did not say that Nibali would have won the RVV. But if he had done like Pogacar; involved from his early twenties, starting in build-up races, pushing his peak to early April.... Nibali could have done quite well over the years, maybe even won if things had gone his way.

The mere fact the wanted to anticipate and attacked before the Kwaremont would suggest a lack of confidence in staying with the best.

So it wasn't because it was the guy's first cobbled classic, and he had no idea how the race was supposed to be done
 
I don't have a direct quote, but I don't think it's a made-up one



Everyone is moving the goalposts here. I did not say that Nibali would have won the RVV. But if he had done like Pogacar; involved from his early twenties, starting in build-up races, pushing his peak to early April.... Nibali could have done quite well over the years, maybe even won if things had gone his way.



So it wasn't because it was the guy's first cobbled classic, and he had no idea how the race was supposed to be done

I don't see how that quote can translate to your interpretation of easily staying in the favorites group and fighting for a top-10 without the attack.

If he had such problems after the attack it is not unreasonable to think that he would have had the same problems once the favorites accelerated on the Kwaremont and would have got dropped on the Paterberg.

And I think we have been over it, but once again for future reference in case this forum will be read 20 years from now, Pogacar did 1 cobbled classic (which did not even go over the decisive climbs in the Ronde) prior to being in the sprint for victory in his first Ronde.

People reading your post would probably think that Pogacar did a lot of work and had a lot of experience to be able to feature in the Ronde which is not really true or at least not really supported by evidence that I am aware of.

And finally, Nibali himself says here that he attacked because he wanted to anticipate, so I am not sure where your conclusion that Nibali had no idea comes from.

 
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I don't see how that quote can translate to your interpretation of easily staying in the favorites group and fighting for a top-10 without the attack.

If he had such problems after the attack it is not unreasonable to think that he would have had the same problems once the favorites accelerated on the Kwaremont and would have got dropped on the Paterberg.

And I think we have been over it, but once again for future reference in case this forum will be read 20 years from now, Pogacar did 1 cobbled classic (which did not even go over the decisive climbs in the Ronde) prior to being in the sprint for victory in his first Ronde.

People reading your post would probably think that Pogacar did a lot of work and had a lot of experience to be able to feature in the Ronde which is not really true or at least not really supported by evidence that I am aware of.

And finally, Nibali himself says here that he attacked because he wanted to anticipate, so I am not sure where your conclusion that Nibali had no idea comes from.


There were 16 people in that group, including Terpstra, so I guess staying in that group means fighting for a top 10

The link you posted shows how unprepared Nibali is for the Flanders

"I'd only ever seen it in TV, but from the start to finish, it was a war or a battle. I thought it'd be more calm in the first part but instead it was on from the start to finish.
"There where I attacked, the road went up a little bit. In Flanders, it's right to do it. Sometimes you need to anticipate in Flanders. It can work, but Terpstra was just impressive," Nibali added.
"I did what I did because I wanted to see what's possible. I did, but Terpstra had another set of legs and an impressive rhythm. It's normal when you base your season around these races you can have that speed."
"I don't know when I'll return. I need a more precise lead-up with the races beforehand," he said.
"I came here a little bit just at the last minute, so I'd need to be ready and do it right."

Compare that to Pogacar who has had this race marked on his calendar since the beginning of the year. Btw, I believe the u23 race in 2018 had Paterberg and Kwaremont where Pog finished 15th.

One more thing, I think the competition was much harder in 2018 than in 2022. MvdP was a big favourite in 2022, which always simplifies the race. Looking at the 2018 startlist, there were a lot of guys who were about evenly matched, and peak QS who could have won by 5.
 
I’ve been a huge Nibali fan for years. And to now learn that he could have won the Ronde if only he did the training just adds to his legend. Thank you Aimar16.

I never said he certainly could have won RVV. My point is that if he had competed regularly from the start of his career, always correctly prepared, his results would have been good enough like top 10 places. And maybe, just maybe if he had everything going his way one year he might have even won....
 
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I never said he certainly could have won RVV. My point is that if he had competed regularly from the start of his career, always correctly prepared, his results would have been good enough like top 10 places. And maybe, just maybe if he had everything going his way one year he might have even won....
Perhaps, while we know Teddy went in the first time at 23 years old, was the strongest, but got out-foxed in the end. Next time he dominated the race. Even had Nibali spent his entire career chasing a Flanders victory, he may not have won, and doubtless that would have been rather compromising to his grand tour ambitions. There is a reason why the Italian only tried Flanders once at the twilight of his career, and conversely why the Slovenian participated early on; herein lies the difference in calibre.
 
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Perhaps, while we know Teddy went in the first time at 23 years old, was the strongest, but got out-foxed in the end. Next time he dominated the race. Even had Nibali spent his entire career chasing a Flanders victory, he may not have won, and doubtless that would have been rather compromising to his grand tour ambitions. There is a reason why the Italian only tried Flanders once at the twilight of his career, and conversely why the Slovenian participated early on; herein lies the difference in calibre.

I wouldn't say he was the strongest in 2022, MvdP was constantly glued to his back and never seemed to have any difficulties. You can say Pog was the strongest this year, but that ride was not a tactical masterclass from MvdP. He may have been overconfident from the Milan-Sanremo win, that attack made no sense especially since Pog had a man up front. MvdP shoot his gun before the Kwaremont, while Pog got a little rest behind Trentin. It may not have affected the final result (but who knows), the gap at the top of the Kwaremont would probably have been smaller.

Btw, Pog participated in the U23 RVV and Kattekoers in his junior years. So this part of Europe was not completely unknown to him.
 
I wouldn't say he was the strongest in 2022, MvdP was constantly glued to his back and never seemed to have any difficulties. You can say Pog was the strongest this year, but that ride was not a tactical masterclass from MvdP. He may have been overconfident from the Milan-Sanremo win, that attack made no sense especially since Pog had a man up front. MvdP shoot his gun before the Kwaremont, while Pog got a little rest behind Trentin. It may not have affected the final result (but who knows), the gap at the top of the Kwaremont would probably have been smaller.

Btw, Pog participated in the U23 RVV and Kattekoers in his junior years. So this part of Europe was not completely unknown to him.
Well, the pundits have universally agreed that Pog was the strongest in his first Flanders, although he did not win; and even MVDP said he had no answer for Pog deep in this year's addition.
 

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