Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Froome]

I know that Vingo did higher w/kg due to aerodynamics but those estimates vary. I'm pretty sure I saw a difference of 0.08-0.09 w/kg in some place, not 0.17 w/kg (which seems quite a lot for 21 kph)).

6.91 w/kg-JV and 6.83 w/kg-TP, on Lanterne rouge(Naichaca). Probably you saw there, but i trust more in ammattipyoraily.

 

[ppanther92]

It has to be noted that the average elevation of Foscagno climb was over 1800 meters so much higher than all those examples. The stage was also very difficult. Those factors lowered w/kg not only for Pog but also for other guys.

Fair point, but hard to pin down the effect of that. But ofc, true. Less oxygen, less Watts possible.

 

[Red Rick]

The typical performance in that chart is not a good reference for Foscagno. Loze and Granon are probably the most comparable ones.

I don't even think we should pay too much attention to the whole of Foscagno, but more to the numbers after the attack. Consistent 30 minute efforts are pretty rare while the 12-15 minute attack duration is much more common.

 

[Netserk]

I don't even think we should pay too much attention to the whole of Foscagno, but more to the numbers after the attack. Consistent 30 minute efforts are pretty rare while the 12-15 minute attack duration is much more common.

From Lanterne Rouge/Naichaca: https://lanternerouge.com/2024/05/1...livignos-thin-air-giro-ditalia-stage-15-2024/

Foscagno: 22'23" at 5.64 W/kg + 13'07" at 6.88 W/kg = 35'30" at 6.10 W/kg | (top at 2291 m)

Vingegaard's attacks (San Giacomo and Petrano could be added as well, but both are shorter), though note that these are not directly comparable as they are by another method:

So roughly:

Hautacam: 24'40'' at 6.1 W/kg + 11'54'' at 6.68 W/kg = 36'34'' at 6.35 W/kg | (top at 1520 m)
Tourmalet*: 23'25'' at 5.8 W/kg + 13'27'' at 6.8 W/kg = 36'52'' at 6.17 W/kg | (top at 2115 m)
Granon: 20'36'' at 5.83 W/kg + 15'20'' at 6.34 W/kg = 35'56'' at 6.05 W/kg | (top at 2404 m)

*Based on the GPS times from Gripp and estimated with [Dr.F].

EDIT: LR/Naichaca numbers for San Giacomo: https://lanternerouge.com/2024/03/0...as-vingegaard-tirreno-adriatico-2024-stage-6/

San Giacomo: 14'27" at 6.39 W/kg + 11'38" at 7.04 W/kg = 26'05" at 6.68 W/kg | (top at 1156 m)

 

[Red Rick]

From Lanterne Rouge/Naichaca: https://lanternerouge.com/2024/05/1...livignos-thin-air-giro-ditalia-stage-15-2024/

Foscagno: 22'23" at 5.64 W/kg + 13'07" at 6.88 W/kg = 35'30" at 6.10 W/kg | (top at 2291 m)

Vingegaard's attacks (San Giacomo and Petrano could be added as well, but both are shorter), though note that those are not directly comparable as they are by another method:


EDIT: LR/Naichaca numbers for San Giacomo: https://lanternerouge.com/2024/03/0...as-vingegaard-tirreno-adriatico-2024-stage-6/

San Giacomo: 14'27" at 6.39 W/kg + 11'38" at 7.04 W/kg = 26'05" at 6.68 W/kg | (top at 1156 m)

Hmm I remember lower numbers for the initial pace on Granon and Tourmalet.

What's the DrF method adjustment on drafting? 30% less air resistance?

 

[Netserk]

Hmm I remember lower numbers for the initial pace on Granon and Tourmalet.

What's the DrF method adjustment on drafting? 30% less air resistance?

Only Tourmalet is with DrF (in order to get it for the segment that starts from Gripp), it does not account for different degrees of drafting, based only on VAM and gradient.

EDIT: It's all ballpark numbers, and the efforts beforehand vary in different ways, so it just offers a sense of how the performances differ.

 

[Extinction]

They activated a new copy of Skeletor. He probably still can't ride a bike but if they teach him before the Tour Teddy will have his hands full.

The thing is Pog is always too good on all terrains the whole year long. I get he is super talented, but, come on, there are no phenomenons in cycling, only superior programs.

 

[kingjr]

The thing is Pog is always too good on all terrains the whole year long. I get he is super talented, but, come on, there are no phenomenons in cycling, only superior programs.

There are phenomenons everyhwere, why not in cycling, specifically.

 

[Extinction]

There are phenomenons everyhwere, why not inat cycling, specifically.

It's simply a way of saying that, since they are all very good, some better than others, at that level nobody can be head and shoulders above the rest all the time. And besides the Gianetti/Arab money combination makes it that I just can't believe what I'm seeing.

 

[kingjr]

It's simply a way of saying that, since they are all very good, some better than others, at that level nobody can be head and shoulders above the rest all the time. And besides the Gianetti/Arab money combination makes it that I just can't believe what I'm seeing.

Well, he isn't

 

[Extinction]

Well, he isn't

The past four seasons, with two exceptions, he Indeed has been. And this season is just ridiculous. He rides without competition. If he continues this way at the Tour, I'll start to take the peospect of motor doping seriously.

 

[shadowrider]

Comparing watts and climbs is so boring and partly irrelevant. You (also) have to look at the body (face)language of Pogacar and the opponents. He ridiculed the opposition and did so literally and figuratively with a smile. I am more and more convinced that things are not happening in a normal (and permitted) way. It's starting to look more and more like Armstrong's cycling style. Not jumping, just accelerate and maintain that acceleration for hundreds of meters. Afterwards, lower the speed slightly and maintain it until the finish. While the opponents themselves can hardly accelerate a little. To reduce the speed very soon after and more than Poga. With current research methods, this sophisticated deception can never end. As it didn't with Armstrong. Simply using EPO, then detectable for years...... But his cheating did not come to light in a laboratory. I think the same is happening with Pogacar and Vingegaard (and some of their teammates).

 

[kingjr]

The past four seasons, with two exceptions, he Indeed has been. And this season is just ridiculous. He rides without competition. If he continues this way at the Tour, I'll start to take the peospect of motor doping seriously.

Those were two very significant major exceptions, given that it's the biggest goal of the season. He also has been trying very hard for a few years now to win Milan San Remo, without success. Nor has he had any at the World Championships.

 

[Extinction]

Those were two very significant major exceptions, given that it's the biggest goal of the season. He also has been trying very hard for a few years now to win Milan San Remo, without success. Nor has he had any at the World Championships.

MSR, however, in the modern age is least suited to him so understandable. He arrived at the WCs over-cooked and not targeting them specifically like two other Bigs. Last year's Tour he hastened his prep, whereas two years ago sinned of hubris (Vingegaard is a separate discussion). So those major exceptions have their reasons, in primis because Jonas is another mutant. But Tadej currently is making a mockery of things.

 

[Hugh Januss]

 

[QueenStagiaire]

Jens Voigt conveniently brings up how much less labored dopers looked during the EPO era at least five times a year, which goes to show why I don‘t believe this at all, because it‘s mostly brought up by people who don‘t ride like that and think that looking good on the bike must mean someone’s cheating. Vingegaard for example always looks like he‘s frantically vacuuming in all the air when he‘s going full gas. Ethan Hayter always looks effortless like he‘s not even riding hard just like Quintana, yet that doesn’t mean he‘s more or less doped than Mauri Vansevenant or Bauke Mollema. Bjarne Riis must have been doping way less and that Ullrich guy could barely turn over his gear… cleans. Dopers and clean riders have never been doping more or less based on their movements on the bike or how labored they looked. Did Pogačar start doping more when he started moving around less to make his riding style more efficient? No, how would Coal miner Pogačar have won anything back then. He was cheating then and he‘s cheating now but you can‘t read it from how he looks on the bike.

 

[kingjr]

MSR, however, in the modern age is least suited to him so understandable. He arrived at the WCs over-cooked and not targeting them specifically like two other Bigs. Last year's Tour he hastened his prep, whereas two years ago sinned of hubris (Vingegaard is a separate discussion). So those major exceptions have their reasons, in primis because Jonas is another mutant. But Tadej currently is making a mockery of things.

Yeah, opposition was 2nd tier at Strade and again now at the Giro, he lost San Remo, didn't race Flanders, and at LBL, the strongest opposition was again missing. He may have won all of those anyway, granted. But I think we can agree that "all the time" is an exaggeration.

 

[Red Rick]

Jens Voigt conveniently brings up how much less labored dopers looked during the EPO era at least five times a year, which goes to show why I don‘t believe this at all, because it‘s mostly brought up by people who don‘t ride like that and think that looking good on the bike must mean someone’s cheating. Vingegaard for example always looks like he‘s frantically vacuuming in all the air when he‘s going full gas. Ethan Hayter always looks effortless like he‘s not even riding hard just like Quintana, yet that doesn’t mean he‘s more or less doped than Mauri Vansevenant or Bauke Mollema. Bjarne Riis must have been doping way less and that Ullrich guy could barely turn over his gear… cleans. Dopers and clean riders have never been doping more or less based on their movements on the bike or how labored they looked. Did Pogačar start doping more when he started moving around less to make his riding style more efficient? No, how would Coal miner Pogačar have won anything back then. He was cheating then and he‘s cheating now but you can‘t read it from how he looks on the bike.

Talking about that and calling it evidence of doping really just undermines actual evidence.

 

[Extinction]

Yeah, opposition was 2nd tier at Strade and again now at the Giro, he lost San Remo, didn't race Flanders, and at LBL, the strongest opposition was again missing. He may have won all of those anyway, granted. But I think we can agree that "all the time" is an exaggeration.

If "all the time" can be applied to any cyclist today, then it's Pogacar. I mean his batting average, in cycling terms, is beyond ridiculous.

 

[Ripper]

Jens Voigt conveniently brings up how much less labored dopers looked during the EPO era at least five times a year, which goes to show why I don‘t believe this at all, because it‘s mostly brought up by people who don‘t ride like that and think that looking good on the bike must mean someone’s cheating. Vingegaard for example always looks like he‘s frantically vacuuming in all the air when he‘s going full gas. Ethan Hayter always looks effortless like he‘s not even riding hard just like Quintana, yet that doesn’t mean he‘s more or less doped than Mauri Vansevenant or Bauke Mollema. Bjarne Riis must have been doping way less and that Ullrich guy could barely turn over his gear… cleans. Dopers and clean riders have never been doping more or less based on their movements on the bike or how labored they looked. Did Pogačar start doping more when he started moving around less to make his riding style more efficient? No, how would Coal miner Pogačar have won anything back then. He was cheating then and he‘s cheating now but you can‘t read it from how he looks on the bike.

While there are many truths to this, there is at least one exception. At the high-end, when circumstances are physically challenging enough, people will betray effort in some ways that are visible. It could be during the effort or immediately following. This is even more prominent during a long road race compared to say, a time trial, primarily because for a really fit athletes, a time trial is not going to be limited by endurance, and going over capacity during the TT is often counterproductive.

But each to their own opinion. I have often found that for our favorite riders, we will put the blinders on at least partly if not fully. I have been guilty of this myself, not only watching races, but being in them. I have ridden with some really awesome and talented guys who were also rampant dopers, as well as complete pr*cks who were simply hugely talented but clean. But the dopers always made it look that much easier. At my current level and advanced age, if somebody rips up a mountain like I'm standing still and looks effortless, that's just life. But at the elite level, to make that kind of a gap and keep it going while riding within yourself, it makes you a huge outlier which in and of itself is fairly suspicious in the professional sports world.

 

[Extinction]

While there are many truths to this, there is at least one exception. At the high-end, when circumstances are physically challenging enough, people will betray effort in some ways that are visible. It could be during the effort or immediately following. This is even more prominent during a long road race compared to say, a time trial, primarily because for a really fit athletes, a time trial is not going to be limited by endurance, and going over capacity during the TT is often counterproductive.

But each to their own opinion. I have often found that for our favorite riders, we will put the blinders on at least partly if not fully. I have been guilty of this myself, not only watching races, but being in them. I have ridden with some really awesome and talented guys who were also rampant dopers, as well as complete pr*cks who were simply hugely talented but clean. But the dopers always made it look that much easier. At my current level and advanced age, if somebody rips up a mountain like I'm standing still and looks effortless, that's just life. But at the elite level, to make that kind of a gap and keep it going while riding within yourself, it makes you a huge outlier which in and of itself is fairly suspicious in the professional sports world.

Amen, I too on pane e acqua have been in brakes with doped riders, always suffering like a pig to get a decent result. One doped rider on my team even said you have to get on a program and, exaggerating, said I'd win 18 races in a season. Unfortunately, I'm not making this *** up.

 

[SorelyBoy]

Comparing watts and climbs is so boring and partly irrelevant. You (also) have to look at the body (face)language of Pogacar and the opponents. He ridiculed the opposition and did so literally and figuratively with a smile. I am more and more convinced that things are not happening in a normal (and permitted) way. It's starting to look more and more like Armstrong's cycling style. Not jumping, just accelerate and maintain that acceleration for hundreds of meters. Afterwards, lower the speed slightly and maintain it until the finish. While the opponents themselves can hardly accelerate a little. To reduce the speed very soon after and more than Poga. With current research methods, this sophisticated deception can never end. As it didn't with Armstrong. Simply using EPO, then detectable for years...... But his cheating did not come to light in a laboratory. I think the same is happening with Pogacar and Vingegaard (and some of their teammates).

I agree. If Pogacar was doing this ten years ago, he’d have taken the impossible to break Sky Train and just left it for dead. His accelerations are brutal, not like a classic climber who tries to make a jump before settling back, but in the way he just goes like the flick of a switch. Then when you wait for the inevitable red line to be hit (because nature tells you it must) he just keeps going at an insane speed, the cadence of his peddling barely letting up. Bonkers.

 

[pastronef]

I agree. If Pogacar was doing this ten years ago, he’d have taken the impossible to break Sky Train and just left it for dead. His accelerations are brutal, not like a classic climber who tries to make a jump before settling back, but in the way he just goes like the flick of a switch. Then when you wait for the inevitable red line to be hit (because nature tells you it must) he just keeps going at an insane speed, the cadence of his peddling barely letting up. Bonkers.

there you go. I'm a Sky fan and I remember when outrage was ehm... sky high for that Sky-train. nowadays they'd get smashed, and the anti-sky folks on here and twitter are gone

 

[TourOfSardinia]

Aren't the emergence of hair tufts
the sign that Pogacar is being
physically challenged?

 

[Scarponi]

He and Vinge are really only chasing two men left now, can’t wait for one of them to get close to Pantani or Armstrongs top 5 times on Alp. Only thing that might cost them is not going full has from near the bottom