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Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

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H

Heston

Jul 20, 2018
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Pogacar is definitely getting protection in the same way Armstrong did. He's actually a lot like Armstrong in most ways, on a personal level too.

Only major difference between Armstrong and Pogacar is that even Armstrong didnt want to do enough doping to crush the classics, Giro and Tour in the same season.
 
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madthebad

madthebad

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Heston said:
Pogacar is definitely getting protection in the same way Armstrong did. He's actually a lot like Armstrong in most ways, on a personal level too.

Only major difference between Armstrong and Pogacar is that even Armstrong didnt want to do enough doping to crush the classics, Giro and Tour in the same season.
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Not really. Vingebot is way more like Lance. Both had to overcome huge obstacles ( Lance - cancer, Vingo - the fish factory) and then all of a sudden destroy the whole peloton overnight. Also just like Lance, Vingo only focuses on the TDF (less tests to cheat). Now, after the blood bags on Monday and a " dramatic" victory next Sunday with a punctured lung and some broken ribs, I fully expect a speech like " I’m sorry you don’t believe in miracles..."
 
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Rackham

Rackham

Jul 16, 2015
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I feel like anyone who is fine with the performances of Pog or Vinge (their respective fanbases essentially) has no right whatsoever to then accuse the other of dopage.

I mean come on now, behave.

Combloux happened. It automatically disqualifies Vinge fans from accusing Pog & Gianetti from doing clinical stuff whilst pretending Vinge rides around France all pure & innocent.

They're both cut from the same cloth.
 
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Heston

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madthebad said:
Not really. Vingebot is way more like Lance. Both had to overcome huge obstacles ( Lance - cancer, Vingo - the fish factory) and then all of a sudden destroy the whole peloton overnight. Also just like Lance, Vingo only focuses on the TDF (less tests to cheat). Now, after the blood bags on Monday and a " dramatic" victory next Sunday with a punctured lung and some broken ribs, I fully expect a speech like " I’m sorry you don’t believe in miracles..."
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So just to be clear. You think its more suspect to dominate 1 race in a year than to dominate every race the whole year? Thats some weird coping logic.

Not sure what you're on about with the fish factory stuff, but it has nothing to do with reality. Having a part time job to afford your cycling career as a U23 rider on a local team while dominating U23 races is fairly normal.

Pretending he walked straight from a factory into winning the Tour just shows that you dont care about the truth.
 
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nilfen

nilfen

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madthebad said:
Not really. Vingebot is way more like Lance. Both had to overcome huge obstacles ( Lance - cancer, Vingo - the fish factory) and then all of a sudden destroy the whole peloton overnight. Also just like Lance, Vingo only focuses on the TDF (less tests to cheat). Now, after the blood bags on Monday and a " dramatic" victory next Sunday with a punctured lung and some broken ribs, I fully expect a speech like " I’m sorry you don’t believe in miracles..."
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Why do you keep on brining Vingegaard up in a Pogacar-thread? Seems like you are trying to excuse Pogacar by pointing fingers. No matter who else is riding in the peloton, what we are seeing this year is beyond ridiculous and is ruining cycling!
 
Rackham

Rackham

Jul 16, 2015
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Ilmaestro99 said:
He is literally sprinting up the mountain like pantani and armstrong on alpe ventoux. We watch that footage 15 years down the line and we say, how did everybody didn't know, that they were doped?

Maybe we will say the same about days like today
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I think Vingegaard was the greatest thing to ever happen to Tadej Pogačar.

The fact he's got a rival following the exact same life philosophy in "how to really win a bike race" makes all his otherworldly performances an easier sell.

Pog kicked down a barn door in 2020, Visma followed with Vinge & now both feed off each other. LPdBF, Grand-Bornand, Granon, Combloux & now Pla d'Adet, i.e. all ridiculous, all completely nonsensical but now all totally accepted by cycling followers because of the 'duel' between these riders.
 
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Heston

Jul 20, 2018
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nilfen said:
Why do you keep on brining Vingegaard up in a Pogacar-thread? Seems like you are trying to excuse Pogacar by pointing fingers. No matter who else is riding in the peloton, what we are seeing this year is beyond ridiculous and is ruining cycling!
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Because even they know that Gianetti's boy has had the most ridiculous season of any cyclist since Eddy Merckx. Deflection is their only tactic.
 
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madthebad

madthebad

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Heston said:
So just to be clear. You think its more suspect to dominate 1 race in a year than to dominate every race the whole year? Thats some weird coping logic.

Not sure what you're on about with the fish factory stuff, but it has nothing to do with reality. Having a part time job to afford your cycling career as a U23 rider on a local team while dominating U23 races is fairly normal.

Pretending he walked straight from a factory into winning the Tour just shows that you dont care about the truth.
Click to expand...
But you're the guy who keeps defending Vingegaard saying he's not doping while accusing Pogacar of being doped to the gills like Armstrong and Pantani. Following their junior careers you can see clearly that Pogi was way more talented and destined for greatness, while Vingegaard showed up like a freak. I'm not saying that Pogi is 100% clean, but a rider like Vingegaard would need the mother of all juices to beat a guy with Pogi's qualities and talents, even if doped.
 
H

Heston

Jul 20, 2018
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madthebad said:
But you're the guy who keeps defending Vingegaard saying he's not doping while accusing Pogacar of being doped to the gills like Armstrong and Pantani. Following their junior careers you can see clearly that Pogi was way more talented and destined for greatness, while Vingegaard showed up like a freak. I'm not saying that Pogi is 100% clean, but a rider like Vingegaard would need the mother of all juices to beat a guy with Pogi's qualities and talents, even if doped.
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Quote 1 place where I wrote Vinge is not doped.

Your complete lack of knowledge about Vinge's career is obvious. Most of what you say is just factually wrong. Vinge is not clean, but I can still point out when you post lies.
 
Samu Cuenca

Samu Cuenca

Sep 26, 2020
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madthebad said:
Not really. Vingebot is way more like Lance. Both had to overcome huge obstacles ( Lance - cancer, Vingo - the fish factory) and then all of a sudden destroy the whole peloton overnight. Also just like Lance, Vingo only focuses on the TDF (less tests to cheat). Now, after the blood bags on Monday and a " dramatic" victory next Sunday with a punctured lung and some broken ribs, I fully expect a speech like " I’m sorry you don’t believe in miracles..."
Click to expand...

I don't think the fish factory counts as a huge obstacle. Sure the injury that put him there set him back for a bit, but we've also learned/being told that it in some ways helped him get his act together.
 
meat puppet

meat puppet

May 29, 2011
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Ilmaestro99 said:
He is literally sprinting up the mountain like pantani and armstrong on alpe ventoux. We watch that footage 15 years down the line and we say, how did everybody didn't know, that they were doped?

Maybe we will say the same about days like today
Click to expand...

No one familiar with the sport can be gullible enough to believe this. And as you know, Vinge bettered Pog two years in a row, so it's not a one way street. The arms race is a joke.

So knowing is not the problem. Some people just get a huge boner out of domination, "excellence", whatever, is all. It was the same with the fanboi of Lance, Sky, etc, although different language was used to rationalize it in each case.
 
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GuntherL1

Jul 24, 2014
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ppanther92 said:
Well, if you have no clue whats going on, you can't do anything. It might also be UCI and WADA corruption (see Chinese swimmers) but in the 90s it was the same. Took some years to realize - "hey, this EPO stuff really is a gamechanger". I mean, Dr. Ferrari even did his famous "orange juice" press conference because it was not even prohibited.
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That's not the point. Gianetti should have been banned for life from cycling a decade ago. Piepoli, Ricco, Cobo and Menchov were all caught in a team he was managing. He's the core of the fraud in current cycling. Stéphane Heulot said in 2008 "Doping is so ingrained in certain managers, like GIanetti, that they can't conceive of cycling any other way," It was well known.
 
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Ripper

Ripper

Sep 14, 2009
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Red Rick said:
Media will just eat the *** of "omg they actually eat food now. Food wasn't discovered in the 90s. Pantani raced on EPO and good vibes baby"
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EPO and good vibes is what were all on in the 90's.

Fun fact - over the course of one off season, being absolutely ridden off the wheel by guys on the flats while they chatted and a bunch of us were just dying. Previous season had been more or less equal. But wanna know what makes it OK? They were riding on EPO and good vibes baby!! :p

What did not work? Insane amounts of caffeine. No good vibes with that. Guys would be all twitchy and cranky, and sometimes sh*t themselves.

Steroids weren't good vibes either. Dudes were angry and agro.

Good vibes were found riding along with certain MTB pros at crazy tempos. We were all happy and sometimes a bit delirious.

Nice hulk pose at the end. That was silly.

If Gianetti is allowed to manage a team and be at the race, why do they still act so silly about pharmstrong and such? I mean, T'PoPo rides for, like, the dirtiest dirtbag and the dude gets airtime on Netflix. All the lolzzzz for pro sports :p
 
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Rechtschreibfehler

Rechtschreibfehler

Mar 19, 2009
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Just going on the last few pages:

I think it's pretty insane to suggest there's nothing going on and nothing major has changed. Nonetheless doping is one factor of many that in composition make up the performance of cyclists. So I am unsure about the arms race theory, because everybody's *** numbers have gone up. I head the other day Bernal is pushing better numbers than for his Tour win, 2 years ago it was said of Thomas he was doing his career best watts. It's not as if doping was a great flattener of differences. Of course the reactions to it will be individual, yet that doesn't mean a rider can't be better than another because of say better training or something else.

I don't think greatest advantage = greatest doper is an equation that works so easily. Also having a doping history in management does not make you automatically great at doping better than others.

The time not only Pogacar cut off the old record was still considerable.
 
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H

Heston

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Its crazy how 10 years ago we were told all about how Sky dominated because of their marginals gains and scientific approach. We were told they had essentially perfected cycling.

Now Gianetti's alien boy is making Froome's climbing numbers look amateurish by comparison. And that's after he has crushed the classics and Giro already in the same season. Really gets even more insane the more you think about it.
 
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Rechtschreibfehler

Rechtschreibfehler

Mar 19, 2009
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Heston said:
Its crazy how 10 years ago we were told all about how Sky dominated because of their marginals gains and scientific approach. We were told they had essentially perfected cycling.

Now Gianetti's alien boy is making Froome's climbing numbers look amateurish by comparison. And that's after he has crushed the classics and Giro already in the same season. Really gets even more insane the more you think about it.
Click to expand...

This has been going on for a few years now and it's really not just Pogacar. He stands out because of his all around class on all sorts of terrain. But that kind of also boils down to enough watts+explosiveness+bike handling. It's just that the believe was you couldn't ride a full season anymore in modern cycling. Honestly I never fully understood why (might be my ignorance, but cycling went from multiple winners of all sorts of stuff to specialisation, but that musn't be it's natural ending point.

So I am not arguing Pogacar is the most impressive rider who's doped in *** ages, but that does not make in necessary in my opinion that he is also the most doped/best protected rider out there or ever.
 
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