Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[madthebad]

So just to be clear. You think its more suspect to dominate 1 race in a year than to dominate every race the whole year? Thats some weird coping logic.

Not sure what you're on about with the fish factory stuff, but it has nothing to do with reality. Having a part time job to afford your cycling career as a U23 rider on a local team while dominating U23 races is fairly normal.

Pretending he walked straight from a factory into winning the Tour just shows that you dont care about the truth.

But you're the guy who keeps defending Vingegaard saying he's not doping while accusing Pogacar of being doped to the gills like Armstrong and Pantani. Following their junior careers you can see clearly that Pogi was way more talented and destined for greatness, while Vingegaard showed up like a freak. I'm not saying that Pogi is 100% clean, but a rider like Vingegaard would need the mother of all juices to beat a guy with Pogi's qualities and talents, even if doped.

 

[Mayomaniac]

Yet Pogacar keeps breaking climbing records from 90s. With a Giro in his legs. And having been in top shape for Strade and Liege too.

I think Riis definitely had less dope in his body than Pogacar has.

Ok, that might be an exaggeration.

 

[Heston]

But you're the guy who keeps defending Vingegaard saying he's not doping while accusing Pogacar of being doped to the gills like Armstrong and Pantani. Following their junior careers you can see clearly that Pogi was way more talented and destined for greatness, while Vingegaard showed up like a freak. I'm not saying that Pogi is 100% clean, but a rider like Vingegaard would need the mother of all juices to beat a guy with Pogi's qualities and talents, even if doped.

Quote 1 place where I wrote Vinge is not doped.

Your complete lack of knowledge about Vinge's career is obvious. Most of what you say is just factually wrong. Vinge is not clean, but I can still point out when you post lies.

 

[Heston]

Ok, that might be an exaggeration.

Its honestly not. Even 1996 Riis couldn't have crushed the classics, Giro and Tour in the same season. And the climbing times of Pogacar are definitely not worse than those of Riis, even with a Giro in his legs.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Not really. Vingebot is way more like Lance. Both had to overcome huge obstacles ( Lance - cancer, Vingo - the fish factory) and then all of a sudden destroy the whole peloton overnight. Also just like Lance, Vingo only focuses on the TDF (less tests to cheat). Now, after the blood bags on Monday and a " dramatic" victory next Sunday with a punctured lung and some broken ribs, I fully expect a speech like " I’m sorry you don’t believe in miracles..."

I don't think the fish factory counts as a huge obstacle. Sure the injury that put him there set him back for a bit, but we've also learned/being told that it in some ways helped him get his act together.

 

[madthebad]

Quote 1 place where I wrote Vinge is not doped.

Your complete lack of knowledge about Vinge's career is obvious. Most of what you say is just factually wrong. Vinge is not clean, but I can still point out when you post lies.

How do you know he's not clean?

 

[Red Rick]

There is a lot of disscusion on Alpe d huez stage in this forum haha we all would love to see , but i think the media are not ready for this.

Media will just eat the *** of "omg they actually eat food now. Food wasn't discovered in the 90s. Pantani raced on EPO and good vibes baby"

 

[meat puppet]

He is literally sprinting up the mountain like pantani and armstrong on alpe ventoux. We watch that footage 15 years down the line and we say, how did everybody didn't know, that they were doped?

Maybe we will say the same about days like today

No one familiar with the sport can be gullible enough to believe this. And as you know, Vinge bettered Pog two years in a row, so it's not a one way street. The arms race is a joke.

So knowing is not the problem. Some people just get a huge boner out of domination, "excellence", whatever, is all. It was the same with the fanboi of Lance, Sky, etc, although different language was used to rationalize it in each case.

 

[GuntherL1]

Well, if you have no clue whats going on, you can't do anything. It might also be UCI and WADA corruption (see Chinese swimmers) but in the 90s it was the same. Took some years to realize - "hey, this EPO stuff really is a gamechanger". I mean, Dr. Ferrari even did his famous "orange juice" press conference because it was not even prohibited.

That's not the point. Gianetti should have been banned for life from cycling a decade ago. Piepoli, Ricco, Cobo and Menchov were all caught in a team he was managing. He's the core of the fraud in current cycling. Stéphane Heulot said in 2008 "Doping is so ingrained in certain managers, like GIanetti, that they can't conceive of cycling any other way," It was well known.

 

[Red Rick]

Ok, that might be an exaggeration.

Hautacam was unipuerto tho.

The really hard part about crazy climbing times is that Pogacar loves his negative splits way too much.

 

[Ripper]

Media will just eat the *** of "omg they actually eat food now. Food wasn't discovered in the 90s. Pantani raced on EPO and good vibes baby"

EPO and good vibes is what were all on in the 90's.

Fun fact - over the course of one off season, being absolutely ridden off the wheel by guys on the flats while they chatted and a bunch of us were just dying. Previous season had been more or less equal. But wanna know what makes it OK? They were riding on EPO and good vibes baby!!

What did not work? Insane amounts of caffeine. No good vibes with that. Guys would be all twitchy and cranky, and sometimes sh*t themselves.

Steroids weren't good vibes either. Dudes were angry and agro.

Good vibes were found riding along with certain MTB pros at crazy tempos. We were all happy and sometimes a bit delirious.

Nice hulk pose at the end. That was silly.

If Gianetti is allowed to manage a team and be at the race, why do they still act so silly about pharmstrong and such? I mean, T'PoPo rides for, like, the dirtiest dirtbag and the dude gets airtime on Netflix. All the lolzzzz for pro sports

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

Just going on the last few pages:

I think it's pretty insane to suggest there's nothing going on and nothing major has changed. Nonetheless doping is one factor of many that in composition make up the performance of cyclists. So I am unsure about the arms race theory, because everybody's *** numbers have gone up. I head the other day Bernal is pushing better numbers than for his Tour win, 2 years ago it was said of Thomas he was doing his career best watts. It's not as if doping was a great flattener of differences. Of course the reactions to it will be individual, yet that doesn't mean a rider can't be better than another because of say better training or something else.

I don't think greatest advantage = greatest doper is an equation that works so easily. Also having a doping history in management does not make you automatically great at doping better than others.

The time not only Pogacar cut off the old record was still considerable.

 

[Heston]

Its crazy how 10 years ago we were told all about how Sky dominated because of their marginals gains and scientific approach. We were told they had essentially perfected cycling.

Now Gianetti's alien boy is making Froome's climbing numbers look amateurish by comparison. And that's after he has crushed the classics and Giro already in the same season. Really gets even more insane the more you think about it.

 

[Tim Cahill]

It's going to be well disappointing when they are just doing the old tried and true EPO and blood bags and not some spectacular alien fuel like car exhaust fumes.

 

[Ilmaestro99]

Pogi has some pedigree, style and he's a funny guy

He is maybe a 'funny guy' if you are 12 years old

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

Its crazy how 10 years ago we were told all about how Sky dominated because of their marginals gains and scientific approach. We were told they had essentially perfected cycling.

Now Gianetti's alien boy is making Froome's climbing numbers look amateurish by comparison. And that's after he has crushed the classics and Giro already in the same season. Really gets even more insane the more you think about it.

This has been going on for a few years now and it's really not just Pogacar. He stands out because of his all around class on all sorts of terrain. But that kind of also boils down to enough watts+explosiveness+bike handling. It's just that the believe was you couldn't ride a full season anymore in modern cycling. Honestly I never fully understood why (might be my ignorance, but cycling went from multiple winners of all sorts of stuff to specialisation, but that musn't be it's natural ending point.

So I am not arguing Pogacar is the most impressive rider who's doped in *** ages, but that does not make in necessary in my opinion that he is also the most doped/best protected rider out there or ever.

 

[madthebad]

He is maybe a 'funny guy' if you are 12 years old

Compared to Vingebot he's Dave Chapelle.

 

[Cookster15]

That's not the point. Gianetti should have been banned for life from cycling a decade ago. Piepoli, Ricco, Cobo and Menchov were all caught in a team he was managing. He's the core of the fraud in current cycling. Stéphane Heulot said in 2008 "Doping is so ingrained in certain managers, like GIanetti, that they can't conceive of cycling any other way," It was well known.

Look over there? And yet Visma destroyed Gianetti's best laid plans the last two years. Its obviously an arms race. But a race requires more than one participant. Visma's conductors are just not as infamous yet still managed to conjure up the greatest time trial in history at the Combloux TT last year.

 

[GuntherL1]

Look over there? And yet Visma destroyed Gianetti's best laid plans the last two years. Its obviously an arms race. But a race requires more than one participant. Visma's conductors are just not as infamous yet still managed to conjure up the greatest time trial in history at the Combloux TT last year.

This is the Pogacar topic. I never claimed Vingegaard is clean. If you want to talk about Vingegaard/Visma, go to that topic.

 

[Cookster15]

This is the Pogacar topic. I never claimed Vingegaard is clean. If you want to talk about Vingegaard/Visma, go to that topic.

Yet strangely we never see you there. Its the lack of balance which undermines your reasoning.

 

[madthebad]

This is the Pogacar topic. I never claimed Vingegaard is clean. If you want to talk about Vingegaard/Visma, go to that topic.

I don't understand how you can talk about Pogacar being doped without mentioning his biggest rival. If one guy was riding on still water and then the other one was on the juice, of course the other guy will get the juice as well next time they meet until it becomes a battle of who has the stronger juice. You cannot exclude the other guy from the conversation, especially when one of them lost his phone and his doorbell wasnt working before a drug test.

 

[GuntherL1]

I don't understand how you can talk about Pogacar being doped without mentioning his biggest rival. If one guy was riding on still water and then the other one was on the juice, of course the other guy will get the juice as well next time they meet until it becomes a battle of who has the stronger juice. You cannot exclude the other guy from the conversation, especially when one of them lost his phone and his doorbell wasnt working before a drug test.

[[content deleted]]The reason why I focus on these two people, is because I'm of the opinion that Gianetti should have been banned for life and that Pogacars dominance is the most extreme we have ever seen.
That doesn't mean I think Vingegaard is clean, his ITT in last years TdF wasn't highly suspicious or that his recent comeback shouldn't raise eyebrows. I just don't focus on it because I think there is more extreme fraud occurring, namely Pogacar.

​

 

[GuntherL1]

Yet strangely we never see you there. Its the lack of balance which undermines your reasoning.

So apparently, I have the moral duty to post in other topics and do it in a balanced way to avoid undermining my reasoning?
Yeah... I'll pass.
However, you have the right to now show up in this topic.

 

[Forever The Best]

It's all okay, cycling cleaned up after Festina, Pantani, Armstrong/USPS, Operacion Puerto, Saunier Duval/Gerolsteiner, Contador, Sky.

 

[HurtHumper]

From laternerouge;

It is possibly the UAE superstar’s greatest climbing performance of all time and maybe the best in the 21st century, considering the moderate altitude and stage difficulty. Pogačar did 6.85 ᵉW/Kg for 27:50 min, which is above the All-Time Top 30 trend-line. For sea level normalised, it is 7.16 ᵉW/Kg. Pogačar beat Lance Armstrong’s 2001 and Tony Rominger, Miguel Indurain and Zenon Jaskula’s 1993 times by around two minutes. When comparing to other top performances this century, Pogačar on Pla d’Adet was slightly more impressive than Contador’s 2009 Verbier and Basso’s 2006 Monte Bondone efforts. The biggest knock on Basso’s Monte Bondone performance was that it was after a flat stage, whilst Contador’s Verbier performance when adjusted for altitude and the higher intensity of the Tour de France 2024, falls slightly below this Pla d’Adet.