Question Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

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Those guys are Vayer-level idiots. They will claim anybody who isn't French and winning, is doped. That entire newspaper is littered with articles like that. If you look hard enough, you'll find one of how your grandma climbed the stairs too fast.
 
he hit his Bergen watts, but Roglic practically halved the gap (considering the extra distance) and there were more people within 1'30'' (again, scaling the distance) then there were in Bergen
Worth remembering as well that Dumoulin has changed his body composition and is on a different bike than in Bergen. And this TT was in 3rd week of GT. Even if his watts were the same (which btw is quite suspicious being able to put out the same watts while fatigued at end of a GT as in the WC) , then his aerodynamics certainly were not.
 
Heulot was a team mate of Gianetti and worked with him at Saunier Duval. I think he can judge whether performances are credible or not. That newspaper may be dodgy, but it doesn't invalidate what he's saying.
Yep. Also this is not the first time Heulot speaks out about Gianetti.
 
That's true. He just doesn't have a genuine smile at all it seems? Take SKA (who seems like a very shy guy, whereas Pogacar actually seems pretty extroverted in nature), he seems overwhelmed as well, doesn't know what to say, but he still oozes genuine happiness.
Poga's smiling on the bike all the time though, and it doesn't help that they're all wearing masks if you're looking for emotions.
 
I can well imagine teams are now trying to make it appear like they did everything right, when they did not. However Primoz was not bad on the flat part. He obviously did not expect to already lose a lot of time on Tadej there. Dumoulin and van Aert were not just sad about what they saw. They could not believe their eyes, it was quite visible. And I am already doubting van Aert a lot, if not the whole Jumbo team...
Kämna spoke about the incredible watts of Pogacar even before the time trial, but he attributed them to data probably not being measured right. Now it looks very much like the technical side was working correctly.

We have no proof for Pogacar doping. But the fact that he showed something that left almost everyone with their mouths open while being surrounded by shady people is enough to seriously question him. Downtalking what other riders have done in this race does not seem the right way for me in this.
We can talk about Dumoulin not switching bikes, Roglic's helmet, van Aert not being a real climber, Cavagna not being a climber, Porte not being a real time trialist, but then we still have the pure watts and times done by Pogacar, which are pretty extreme.
In addition we have someone like Schachmann four minutes behind, Kämna 4.12 behind, Kragh Andersen 4 minutes behind, de Gendt 4.11 behind... Of course you can find reasons for them as well not performing well, injured, exhausted... and so on... but they should have done pretty well in this and they were going all in with good equipment. What I want to say: this was not a low level time trial. Some guys, like Porte and Cavagna, were really, really strong themselves. (We might just as well question them instead of taking them as a point of reference that Pogacar was not so very strong.)
 
Jumbo gobsmacked. They thought they were on the good stuff. They got beaten and out doped by Pogacar.
It's hilarious that ppl thought that cycling was "relatively clean" these days. I didn't watch the tt cause I assumed it was a given that Roglic would win. What a shocker. Great tour, my arse.
 
I can well imagine teams are now trying to make it appear like they did everything right, when they did not. However Primoz was not bad on the flat part. He obviously did not expect to already lose a lot of time on Tadej there. Dumoulin and van Aert were not just sad about what they saw. They could not believe their eyes, it was quite visible. And I am already doubting van Aert a lot, if not the whole Jumbo team...
Kämna spoke about the incredible watts of Pogacar even before the time trial, but he attributed them to data probably not being measured right. Now it looks very much like the technical side was working correctly.

We have no proof for Pogacar doping. But the fact that he showed something that left almost everyone with their mouths open while being surrounded by shady people is enough to seriously question him. Downtalking what other riders have done in this race does not seem the right way for me in this.
We can talk about Dumoulin not switching bikes, Roglic's helmet, van Aert not being a real climber, Cavagna not being a climber, Porte not being a real time trialist, but then we still have the pure watts and times done by Pogacar, which are pretty extreme.
In addition we have someone like Schachmann four minutes behind, Kämna 4.12 behind, Kragh Andersen 4 minutes behind, de Gendt 4.11 behind... Of course you can find reasons for them as well not performing well, injured, exhausted... and so on... but they should have done pretty well in this and they were going all in with good equipment. What I want to say: this was not a low level time trial. Some guys, like Porte and Cavagna, were really, really strong themselves. (We might just as well question them instead of taking them as a point of reference that Pogacar was not so very strong.)
You are correct. It does seem like some folks are trying to argue a singular point, with the logic seeming to be that if that point is addressed then they can move on to the next point and the whole issue is put to rest. However, it is when you zoom out and look at the big indicators that you can tell something is very wrong. TP was dusting people on the flats, he was dusting people on the rolling climb, and he smoked everyone on the main climb. The overall level was high, and everyone was tired. TP has also been putting in some serious efforts, so it is not like he has had a chance to rest significantly.

To me, the whole thing is seriously abnormal. Obviously that does not definitively diagnose that he's doing anything others aren't. But it still makes me laugh!
 
I can well imagine teams are now trying to make it appear like they did everything right, when they did not. However Primoz was not bad on the flat part. He obviously did not expect to already lose a lot of time on Tadej there. Dumoulin and van Aert were not just sad about what they saw. They could not believe their eyes, it was quite visible. And I am already doubting van Aert a lot, if not the whole Jumbo team...
Kämna spoke about the incredible watts of Pogacar even before the time trial, but he attributed them to data probably not being measured right. Now it looks very much like the technical side was working correctly.

We have no proof for Pogacar doping. But the fact that he showed something that left almost everyone with their mouths open while being surrounded by shady people is enough to seriously question him. Downtalking what other riders have done in this race does not seem the right way for me in this.
We can talk about Dumoulin not switching bikes, Roglic's helmet, van Aert not being a real climber, Cavagna not being a climber, Porte not being a real time trialist, but then we still have the pure watts and times done by Pogacar, which are pretty extreme.
In addition we have someone like Schachmann four minutes behind, Kämna 4.12 behind, Kragh Andersen 4 minutes behind, de Gendt 4.11 behind... Of course you can find reasons for them as well not performing well, injured, exhausted... and so on... but they should have done pretty well in this and they were going all in with good equipment. What I want to say: this was not a low level time trial. Some guys, like Porte and Cavagna, were really, really strong themselves. (We might just as well question them instead of taking them as a point of reference that Pogacar was not so very strong.)
As you say, we have no proof, but at the end of the day it isn't an issue of whether Pogacar himself has shown the talent in previous races to warrant a performance like that, or a case of whether Pogacar's performance was feasible in relation to the performances of his competitors. Given what we know about the limits of human physiology after studying elite athletes (both doped to the gills and clean as a whistle) in multiple endurance sports, the issue is quite simply: Was Pogacar's performance, all circumstances considered, within the realm of what a human being can feasibly do without resorting to pharmaceuticals or other nefarious means? If every other rider had either pulled out of the race, overslept, crashed out, gotten ill or somehow taken a wrong turn somewhere between Champagnole and Lure and Pogacar was the only rider left in the race, his time on that ride would still have defied belief. If Pogacar was a 30 year old seasoned pro with multiple Grand Tour wins under his belt, his time on that ride would still have defied belief.

You can tear away absolutely everything around what happened yesterday and put that performance in a vacuum and it's still incredibly suspect. There's no need for the smoke and mirrors. Pogacar went into alien territory and nothing he, or anyone else, for that matter, has done previously changes that.
 
Reactions: ngent41 and Ripper
Today ex-world TT champion Dumoulin said he would never be able to reach that TT level lol

"I was all the more surprised that Pogacar was still 1.20 minutes faster. I will never reach that level. I might still be able to win one percent somewhere, but not five percent."

I listened to the Cycling Podcast and obviously they aren't suspicious at all (they even mentioned Gianetti and Matxin's past and immediately moved on..) but even they said "if you offered Roglic a time +30 seconds to Dumoulin then he would be assured that he has won the Tour." Just ridiculous.
 
Reactions: Koronin
Just glad that we have more top races starting again immediately. I don't even want to think about this anymore. Maybe the worst thing is how everyone is just "Oh wow, great ride, bravo! I won't even ask a question about it!"

Just more and more saying "well Froome did say he fails in the third week", "Swart said he's never seen a rider like him", "he's an amazing natural recoverer", "he already made a comeback like this in the Vuelta last year! (when he was 5min down)", "before EPO young guys always did this" blah blah
 
Reactions: Koronin
what is the opinion on the fact TP didnt have a power meter after bike change? could this performance especially on the climb be attributed to the fact he didnt know how fast he was going so he couldnt keep it at least somewhat believable? or do they have just permission to do whatever because of covid no governing body can afford a scandal
 
what is the opinion on the fact TP didnt have a power meter after bike change? could this performance especially on the climb be attributed to the fact he didnt know how fast he was going so he couldnt keep it at least somewhat believable? or do they have just permission to do whatever because of covid no governing body can afford a scandal
I suspect the notion that doping riders tone down their efforts during key winning moments of the biggest event in the sport in order to appear "more believable" resides purely in The Clinic fantasy.

If you dope, you dope to win.
 
Reactions: djpbaltimore

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