Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Venge 82]

It is the first time I visit this clinic section, but since yesterday I can no longer ignore the idea that some riders are no longer clean. I have for a long time believed cycling was clean(er), but yesterday was just too much.

I favor of Pog:
- Modern training methods
- Nutrition plans
- Bikes/material
- Favorable wind
- Pacing since the start of the climb

My "doubts" about Pog:
- Very hard racing since the beginning of the TdF (only a few slow stages)
- Hot weather conditions
- Stage with 4 category 1 climbs and ending with a HC Climb
- Giro in the legs
- His entourage (Gianetti and Matxin)
- Very fast recovery after the finish

Outclimbing Pantani with minutes, knowing he was one of the greatest (if not the greatest) climbers in the world, knowing he was on EPO,... EPO is known to give a +/- 10% benefit. Imagine a clean Pantani would have done +/- 48-49 minutes...
You can argue: in other sports records are also broken. Indeed, but not with such giant steps. We are talking 15-20% better compared to a "clean version" of Pantani (considering a loss of performance of 10%). Consider Marathon as a reference for endurance sports.
- World record in 1999 : 2:05:42
- World record in 2023 : 2:00:35
That's an improvement of 4%. People were like going crazy about this world record. This evolution seems normal and I believe that also in marathon nutrition, training methods,... have improved a lot. I know you cannot 1 on 1 compare, but the bigger picture is clear. It's not like between 1998 and now the have not been racing super fast on PdB. No one comes near this time.

Material plays a role, but less for climbing as many stated above.

I wonder what David Walsh is thinking...

 

[Mayomaniac]

Rest day: journalists and tvs usually asked questions about doping. Has anyone asked any questions?

what the *** has to happen to ask questions or do something?

There are zero new "Pogacar doping" articles on Google. there is practically nothing.
The only one who writes something is Vayer on X, exiled in his house in Brittany.



Ventoux 2021, he can do a fake new little crack. I said it.

Nah, he's way too greedy for that. Those guys are not wired like that, they want to win all the time and when they attack and can't drop someone it's because they can't, not because it's a show attack.

 

[Cookster15]

Rest day: journalists and tvs usually asked questions about doping. Has anyone asked any questions?

what the *** has to happen to ask questions or do something?

There are zero new "Pogacar doping" articles on Google. there is practically nothing.
The only one who writes something is Vayer on X, exiled in his house in Brittany.



Ventoux 2021, he can do a fake new little crack. I said it.

Modern journalism has become copy and paste. Nobody asks questions these days its all groupthink. Who was asking questions after Vingegaard's absurd Combloux TT? Communications degrees should at least be required to do an assignment on David Walsh.

 

[Valv.Piti]

I think comparing running and cycling is pretty bad honestly. I would not go that route. Equipment basically plays no part in running where as in cycling it obviously does, but as you note, probably less so when going uphill compared to races like Roubaix, Flanders, San Remo and flatter races. Still, I do think its a somewhat worthless measuring stick. I think sticking to cycling is much more appropriate, and instead of compared the times to 90's times where EPO played a big role, the equipment was way worse and the overall professionalism in terms of training, nutrition etc. was laughable, why not compare it to the 10's instead? Thats a lot more comparable, and in hindsight, it looks like the 'cleanest' period of racing from my knowledge.

The start 10's were a lot more believeable than 90's despite Sky. It was also in that period that they had us all believe (which I think, to some extent, was correct) that a lot of factors could be optimized and was being optimized. The bikes are very comparable and the attention to details, altitude camps etc. etc. are somewhat similar to now. So the big question is - what changed?

For my money I think even better optimization and professionalism and simply a once in a generation talent account for a decent amount of the performance enhancement (hard to put percentages on it), but not everything. So what are these guys doing now that they didn't do in 10's?

 

[Divergence]

you could tell he wanted to say something when Hincapie told him that Pogacar went 7 minutes faster than him on PdB but he didn't. honestly the last person i'd want to see questioning performances is Lance.

Why not? He would know best.

 

[kingjr]

you could tell he wanted to say something when Hincapie told him that Pogacar went 7 minutes faster than him on PdB but he didn't. honestly the last person i'd want to see questioning performances is Lance.

Armstrong was, after all, only an average climber who had a couple of good days per year.

 

[Netserk]

I think comparing running and cycling is pretty bad honestly. I would not go that route. Equipment basically plays no part in running where as in cycling it obviously does, but as you note, probably less so when going uphill compared to races like Roubaix, Flanders, San Remo and flatter races. Still, I do think its a somewhat worthless measuring stick. I think sticking to cycling is much more appropriate, and instead of compared the times to 90's times where EPO played a big role, the equipment was way worse and the overall professionalism in terms of training, nutrition etc. was laughable, why not compare it to the 10's instead? Thats a lot more comparable, and in hindsight, it looks like the 'cleanest' period of racing from my knowledge.

The start 10's were a lot more believeable than 90's despite Sky. It was also in that period that they had us all believe (which I think, to some extent, was correct) that a lot of factors could be optimized and was being optimized. The bikes are very comparable and the attention to details, altitude camps etc. etc. are somewhat similar to now. So the big question is - what changed?

For my money I think even better optimization and professionalism and simply a once in a generation talent account for a decent amount of the performance enhancement (hard to put percentages on it), but not everything. So what are these guys doing now that they didn't do in 10's?

Plateau de Beille is so outrageous it makes 2021/2022 seem like a slow era. This is a step change (for both Pogi and Vingegaard).

Either they got carte blanche this year or a new method/drug has been introduced. Or motors.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Pogacar is visibly better due to a new coach. But how much can we attribute to bald fraud -> Sola? This has been the picture the whole season, and honestly after watching efforts to Livigno and Grappa, these numbers shouldn't be THAT surprising considering everything we have seen, what we know and what mou has said in 2024. His w/kg threshold has gone from a slight weakness compared to Vingegaard to the best ever. So - we have a generational talent on our hands, who after two years of losing chose to mix it up and has obviously gotten better, but can we contribute that to a new training regiment alone? Probably not, especially not when factoring Vingegaard in who is almost as good, and better than previous years, with a supoptimal preparation.

Im very intrigued to what you guys can come up with. Chances are UAE and Visma especially have an edge, but what is it? Doping sure, but what doping? How, when, what?

Motors? Gimme a break, this is not a science fiction novel.

 

[Amazinmets87]

Pantani's bike was actually pretty light even though it wasn't carbon: 6.96kg (15.34lb), including the bottle cage and pedals. The UCI weight limit is 6.8kg (15lb). But modern bikes are stiffer, way more aero and faster. Even climbing 8% mountains the aero benefit of modern bikes is significant.

Marco Pantani's 1998 Mercatone Uno Bianchi Mega Pro XL Reparto Corse | Cyclingnews.com

An Italian masterpiece for one of Italy's cycling giants

www.cyclingnews.com

Any proof?

 

[anti -e-bike]

Plateau de Beille is so outrageous it makes 2021/2022 seem like a slow era. This is a step change (for both Pogi and Vingegaard).

Either they got carte blanche this year or a new method/drug has been introduced. Or motors.

given their unnatural cadence, I would bet on the latter
looks like at least top 3 is pushed by an invisible hand (read motor)

also the movement that dopacar makes when he attacks looks really fake, as if he wants to cover his motor motion

same for fishy factory lease a e bike robot

 

[repoman]

Rest day: journalists and tvs usually asked questions about doping. Has anyone asked any questions?

what the *** has to happen to ask questions or do something?

There are zero new "Pogacar doping" articles on Google. there is practically nothing.
The only one who writes something is Vayer on X, exiled in his house in Brittany.



Ventoux 2021, he can do a fake new little crack. I said it.

People in the media went apesh1t when Froome did Ax 3 Domaines at 5.8 w/kg. Pogacar does 7.2 w/kg for longer and not a peep.

 

[Andon]

I just can't wrap my mind around the concept where two-time Tour winner Pog has full access to juice that's better than no-limits EPO yet he still went without winning any GTs for almost three calendar years (tour 2021 to Giro 2024). How? Sure, Vingo beat him twice in the Alien vs Predator duel but still, why not grab some easy wins from Giro and Vuelta... I think that's the big question mark at this point, does Pog just go for the Vuelta after he's warmed up his legs a bit in France or would that break some kind of "balance of terror" in the cycling circles.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I just can't wrap my mind around the concept where two-time Tour winner Pog has full access to juice that's better than no-limits EPO yet he still went without winning any GTs for almost three calendar years (tour 2021 to Giro 2024). How? Sure, Vingo beat him twice in the Alien vs Predator duel but still, why not grab some easy wins from Giro and Vuelta... I think that's the big question mark at this point, does Pog just go for the Vuelta after he's warmed up his legs a bit in France or would that break some kind of "balance of terror" in the cycling circles.

Teddy says it's 99% impossible that he will go to the Vuelta. Suddenly this 1% appeared and we all know what it means, Vuelta could be hilarious!

 

[repoman]

Armstrong was, after all, only an average climber who had a couple of good days per year.

It would be dumb for him to start talking about that. I don't think he's as bad of a character as the media portrays, but I don't think he can really stand on any ground to start speculating publicly...it'd be such a bad look and he is in the social media/content business now.
I don't think his analyses are really that great either...lots of rambling in between shilling supplements.

I would love to hear Horner's or Bruyneel's unfiltered takes (not that they could speak about this stuff either), IMO they are the best analyzers of cycling racing that produce media/content.

 

[Monoxidator]

Bruyneel is still so close to the pro peloton, and selling little tidbits of insider info is how he makes his living. If he started singing he would lose all access and therefore his $$. He's going to just say "the bikes are better" and "they aren't bonking on climbs any more"

 

[Taxus4a]

Pantani's bike was actually pretty light even though it wasn't carbon: 6.96kg (15.34lb), including the bottle cage and pedals. The UCI weight limit is 6.8kg (15lb). But modern bikes are stiffer, way more aero and faster. Even climbing 8% mountains the aero benefit of modern bikes is significant.

Marco Pantani's 1998 Mercatone Uno Bianchi Mega Pro XL Reparto Corse | Cyclingnews.com

An Italian masterpiece for one of Italy's cycling giants

www.cyclingnews.com

Thta is not the information I have, This is in spanish, but I read 7,5 kilos.

Las bicicletas de Marco Pantani. Así escribió su leyenda

Algo más que una herramienta de trabajo. Las bicicletas de Marco Pantani son en Italia un elemento de culto al mejor escalador de los últimos años

ciclored.com

 

[Taxus4a]

Evans wouldn't be close to Evenepoel let alone Tadej or Jonas

I mean by used the same training, nutrition, bikes, thay used now.

Bardet get worse results now, but he said he was doing his best permormances ever.

 

[Taxus4a]

Bruyneel is still so close to the pro peloton, and selling little tidbits of insider info is how he makes his living. If he started singing he would lose all access and therefore his $$. He's going to just say "the bikes are better" and "they aren't bonking on climbs any more"

Bruyneel has no credit, He is interested to say now things are similar to then, He sucks, He has no any prof.

 

[Nick2413]

There will be a day where we look back on this in hindsight and laugh once we know what’s actually going on.

 

[Monoxidator]

Bruyneel has no credit, He is interested to say now things are similar to then, He sucks, He has no any prof.

huh? He says what you say ... that it's all natural, that it's due to the bikes and nutrition. So you're saying he's wrong? You can't say he's wrong and then say the same thing he says.

 

[ashhutch1997]

People in the media went apesh1t when Froome did Ax 3 Domaines at 5.8 w/kg. Pogacar does 7.2 w/kg for longer and not a peep.

I think a lot of that was due to it being just after Lance confessed, the cycling world was very sensitive at that time.
But yes, it's a joke, but as I said, in 2024 you aren't allowed to have a different opinion the mainstream narrative..

 

[ashhutch1997]

There will be a day where we look back on this in hindsight and laugh once we know what’s actually going on.

As long as Pog doesn't become cocky and arrogant like LA a d keeps smiling, I don't think they'll pop him. Let's not forget, Indurain never got popped despite clearly being on the hot sauce.

 

[Cookster15]

Any proof?

I linked an article. Not the first time I read this either.

 

[Nomad]

No, just the performance itself is not for sure a doping performance, even when Pantani was a very doper rider, but it is an amazing performance to study and to make us questions...and that is not bad..in other sport nobody make questions and I see much more amazing things.

That's an understatement as Pantani's doping history is very well-publicized. In addition to EPO, he used anabolic steroids, GH, Insulin, IGF-1 & Levothyroid. He was a client of the infamous Dr Fuentes & Operation Puerto - the biggest doping ring of the era.

When he rode for Carrera, Francisco Conconi was the team doctor overseeing the team's EPO program. According to released documents, Pantani's Hct fluctuated around the upper 50s from a baseline of 40.7 (when crashed at the 95 Milano-Torino & was taken to the hospital, his Hct was reportedly at 60!). And he was DQ'd while leading the 99 Giro for violating the 50% Hct safety level.

No question Pantani was a career doper & a very good responder to O2-Vector doping as evident by his alien climbing ability - arguably the best climber of all time.

 

[Nomad]

As long as Pog doesn't become cocky and arrogant like LA a d keeps smiling, I don't think they'll pop him. Let's not forget, Indurain never got popped despite clearly being on the hot sauce.

That's a good point - Big Mig is a hometown hero & very well loved by the Spanish faithful. I think he's a commentator for Spanish television (?).

If only LA would have behaved himself, been more humble & less arrogant, i.e. assumed the role of a "good doper," he too would be a hometown hero & probably in the broadcast both with Phil Liggett. Lol.