Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Taxus4a]

Pantani had a bike 0,7 kilos heavier, less aerodinamic, and surely other factors make today bikes better. Climb a climb as Plateau, with a bag with 1,5 bottles and for sure you will take more time.

No, just the performance itself is not for sure a doping performance, even when Pantani was a very doper rider, but it is an amazing performance to study and to make us questions...and that is not bad..in other sport nobody make questions and I see much more amazing things.

What is was imposisble is that in those years Festina was proven dopers and to think than the rest of people who beated Festina riders where all clean. It was clear and lot of deluded people didnt realize, the same today lot of deluded people dont relized things changed.

 

[Taxus4a]

its not like armstrong and co where eating burger all the time and lying on the couch the whole day....
they were all highly trained athletes with a lot of knowledge in training and nutrition as well...

this sh*t is just unbelievable

No, things changed a lot from Lance era in all those aspect. They took care of nutrition and lot of things but nothing in comparision as today. They trained no less than now, but now they train better.

But I dont consider Evans a doper and I am sure he would be close to Pogacar in most of races if he started this era ta the same time with the same legal methods. In fact, when doping started to disspeard, he maneged to win le Tour and to be World Champion, with worse age for that.

 

[repoman]

Pantani had a bike 0,7 kilos heavier, less aerodinamic, and surely other factors make today bikes better. Climb a climb as Plateau, with a bag with 1,5 bottles and for sure you will take more time.

No, just the performance itself is not for sure a doping performance, even when Pantani was a very doper rider, but it is an amazing performance to study and to make us questions...and that is not bad..in other sport nobody make questions and I see much more amazing things.

What is was imposisble is that in those years Festina was proven dopers and to think than the rest of people who beated Festina riders where all clean. It was clear and lot of deluded people didnt realize, the same today lot of deluded people dont relized things changed.

Pantani's normal stage bike in 1998 weighed 15.3 lbs/ 6.93kg with cages and pedals, his climbing bike weighed less certainly.
Lance Armstrong had a climbing bike back then that was sub 6.8kg, it's the one with the downtube shifter for the FD. UCI weight limit wasn't enforced until the 00s.

 

[GuntherL1]

Critical thinking? But 2022 and 2023 were freak shows too - particularly that Combloux TT. The MSM never questioned Vingo either, particularly the Danish media.

This is called natural evolution in an arms race. It seems it’s Visma’s turn to get overconfident. I have absolutely zero sympathy for them. You play the game and this can happen. Seems they badly underestimated their rivals.

It was highly suspicious, but not a freak show. In 2022 TJV needed Vingegaard and Roglic to cooperate AND a major tactical error by Pogacar to beat him.
In 2023, Pogacar dropped Vingegaard 3 times on a climb (despite his wrist injury in LBL) and TJV had to pressure him for two weeks before he finally cracked.

Compare this to this year. Has anyone come even close to putting pressure on Pogacar? Now, there's your freakshow.

 

[Penninepeddler]

Pantani's normal stage bike in 1998 weighed 15.3 lbs/ 6.93kg with cages and pedals, his climbing bike weighed less certainly.

Yeh, bike tech has come a long way...

but the place it has came along the least in terms of time? Climbing.

There are big differences on the flat, in TTs, even on say ~4-5% gradients between 25 year old bikes and todays bikes.

But honestly, if you have riden bikes from 20-25 years ago up-hill and bikes from the last 5 years up-hill? Yeh... there is not an enormous difference. Because aero comes into it far less, and rolling speed really does not matter... the only thing is weight and tbh bikes 20-30 years ago are close to the same weight as now.

This aint an Alpine climb for example and just look:

Yeh, a pretty marginal difference on a 4km, ~4% climb! And a 4% climb aero comes into it far more. Talking maybe 5 seconds once the slight wattage difference comes into it. And that impact will be arguably less the greater the incline.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lawourSeonE

 

[repoman]

And why are we comparing bike/nutrition tech of the 90s to today? Why aren't we comparing the 2010s, an era which saw reduction in times even though it's bike tech, nutrition tech, training is pretty similar today? If anything, the bikes of the 2010s were probably the peak of both aero and low weight. Bikes today have gone backwards in that regard.

 

[Penninepeddler]

And why are we comparing bike/nutrition tech of the 90s to today? Why aren't we comparing the 2010s, an era which saw reduction in times even though it's bike tech, nutrition tech, training is pretty similar today?

Yeh. What was Pinot riding in 2015? Wasnt he doing altitude camps then too? The difference between a 2015 bike up-hill and a 2024 bike up-hill? I mean, a 2024 bike will be better but they are basically the same weight and per km I doubt the difference is more than a couple of seconds at best.

Yet almost 6 minutes slower...

 

[Netserk]

What is the media going to do? Say that the riders are not clean? Don't be ridiculous.

And what media? Since when have any cycling television commentators said, "You know, I think this guy is doping", when they haven't actually tested positive? Simply cannot happen.

The cycling media environment was very different in 2007. They don't have to make outright allegations for the tune to be starkly different to the current one.

Right now, it has become common to outright claim that all the top riders are clean, that the peloton is the cleanest it has ever been. There's no toleration for any scepticism.

 

[Rackham]

The cycling media environment was very different in 2007. They don't have to make outright allegations for the tune to be starkly different to the current one.

Right now, it has become common to outright claim that all the top riders are clean, that the peloton is the cleanest it has ever been. There's no toleration for any scepticism.

I think there's a generational issue as well. Aka something which makes the old guys in the TV commentary booths all the more guilty.

That issue is younger fans or new fans of the sport who weren't there 10, 15, 20 or 30 years ago don't know what they're looking at. This is exacerbated by fans who don't actually go cycling themselves. Ascent times only tell half the story, i.e. as bad as all of this is, you just need to see the absolute total neglect these riders have for anything resembling 'energy conservation' to realize this version of pro cycling is totally f*cked. They're whistling as they ride. They don't care about fast starts, hard pacing, long climbs, steep climbs or anything. They're fresh no matter what.

So when ex pros who were neck deep in the juice themselves act like everything is wow & wonderful in 2024, new fans with no real long-term exposure to this sport have no reason to doubt. It's all just a spectacle & they eat it all up.

 

[Nick2413]

Innocent until proven guilty has basically been co-opted to mean you can’t ask any questions at all even in a general context without being blacklisted or called a slanderer.

 

[LesDiablesRouges]

No, things changed a lot from Lance era in all those aspect. They took care of nutrition and lot of things but nothing in comparision as today. They trained no less than now, but now they train better.

But I dont consider Evans a doper and I am sure he would be close to Pogacar in most of races if he started this era ta the same time with the same legal methods. In fact, when doping started to disspeard, he maneged to win le Tour and to be World Champion, with worse age for that.

Evans wouldn't be close to Evenepoel let alone Tadej or Jonas

 

[Tim Cahill]

The response of Orla Chennaoui and Robbie to Jonathan Vaughters who mentioned the climbing time yesterday was quite shocking. He didn't even mention or insinuate anything doping-related, just the time and was immediately snapped back at with NUTRITIONAEROBIKESNEWTRAINING, it was like some kind of weird programmed response. I remember this interview had quite an effect on me when I was younger, and something he says in it really rang true yesterday;

 

[Netserk]

The cycling media environment was very different in 2007. They don't have to make outright allegations for the tune to be starkly different to the current one.

Right now, it has become common to outright claim that all the top riders are clean, that the peloton is the cleanest it has ever been. There's no toleration for any scepticism.

It almost makes me sympathise with Sky. Scepticism was very much welcome towards Froome. (Psst, don't anyone tell @pastronef)

 

[Amazinmets87]

Of course no Ketones, if you buy today a similar bike that perform like Pantani it cost about 500 euros, if you bye Pogacar one, it is about 10000, I dont pay so much if the improvement is not about 2 minutes just the bike in plkateay de Bielle. But today is even the clothes better. and the improvemente is about 8%, but if you comsider at the begining in the 1998 nobidy was working properly, the were looking each other, in fact beltran attacked easyly and when Pantani attack Jorgesson was still working and he had some time more, and Vibgegaard made a super work for Pogacar the difference is 5 %. it is not the same the speed in an ITT than in a TTT. 5% could be even juist the bike with those times...I see much lees people at the end part at Pantani performance, so the wind could be more, motorbikes help sometimes a lot yesterday..but it is true similar to Pantani- As I said Pantani did a great time, so the conditions should be good, except temperature, even higher than yesterday and they didnt have ice and those things they have now.

The modern bikes aren't much faster on climbs, if at all. Why do you think shills such as GCN are so reluctant to perform comparative tests? You really think a 6.8kg rim brake climbing bike circa 2003 is significantly slower than a contemporary 7.2kg disc brake model?

 

[ashhutch1997]

The modern bikes aren't much faster on climbs, if at all. Why do you think shills such as GCN are so reluctant to perform comparative tests? You really think a 6.8kg rim brakes climbing bike circa 2003 is significantly slower than a contemporary 7.2kg disc brake model?

This is so true, I've been trying to tell people this. On a climb it's all about weight. In terms of areo dynamics, the bikes of today are slower than at least 5 years ago, most brands have moved away from areo bikes to 'all round' bikes, which is easier for the manufacturers. I know lots of people who raced on a Venge 5 years ago, and moved to a Tarmac SL7/8, and they all said it was slower and felt like a downgrade. Funny enough, I've recently just sold my 'modern' disk brake bike and brought an areo rim break bike from 6 years ago for this very reason.
It's all about these companies ripping off rich people.

 

[Nick2413]

Does the Armstrong podcast gloss over everything the same way, not even a covert wink? He’s the last person on earth who would say guys beating his times by minutes are clean.

 

[Monoxidator]

Does the Armstrong podcast gloss over everything the same way, not even a covert wink? He’s the last person on earth who would say guys beating his times by minutes are clean.

He's been conspicuously quiet on doping this year. Last year with Jonas' time trial he was on board with it. This year they just talk tactics

 

[ashhutch1997]

He's been conspicuously quiet on doping this year. Last year with Jonas' time trial he was on board with it. This year they just talk tactics

Lance doesn't need any more law suits lol

 

[Bronstein]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1812888145978888443

View: https://x.com/ammattipyoraily/status/1812888145978888443

 

[Rackham]

Lance doesn't need any more law suits lol

That & the fact he's just an ambulant advert for his sponsors these days. That's the primary purpose of his podcast.

 

[FroomeWagon]

Does the Armstrong podcast gloss over everything the same way, not even a covert wink? He’s the last person on earth who would say guys beating his times by minutes are clean.

Lance isn't going to criticize anyone for doping. He is still trying to get back into the good graces of cycling fans and talking doping isn't going to do him any favors, and he knows it.

 

[Nick2413]

Lance isn't going to criticize anyone for doping. He is still trying to get back into the good graces of cycling fans and talking doping isn't going to do him any favors, and he knows it.

They should put him in the cars just to troll everyone. I guess he’s been banned from that too though

 

[zlev11]

Does the Armstrong podcast gloss over everything the same way, not even a covert wink? He’s the last person on earth who would say guys beating his times by minutes are clean.

you could tell he wanted to say something when Hincapie told him that Pogacar went 7 minutes faster than him on PdB but he didn't. honestly the last person i'd want to see questioning performances is Lance.

 

[FroomeWagon]

They should put him in the cars just to troll everyone. I guess he’s been banned from that too though

There appears to be more of a "detante" this year. NBC (the US broadcaster of the tour) is now showing some of his TDF podcasts on their streaming service and I noticed cycilngnews did a "where are they now" article on his team a week or so ago.

https://www.cyclingnews.com/feature...rmstrongs-1999-tour-de-france-us-postal-team/

 

[Cookster15]

Pantani had a bike 0,7 kilos heavier, less aerodinamic, and surely other factors make today bikes better.

Pantani's bike was actually pretty light even though it wasn't carbon: 6.96kg (15.34lb), including the bottle cage and pedals. The UCI weight limit is 6.8kg (15lb). But modern bikes are stiffer, way more aero and faster. Even climbing 8% mountains the aero benefit of modern bikes is significant.

Marco Pantani's 1998 Mercatone Uno Bianchi Mega Pro XL Reparto Corse | Cyclingnews.com

An Italian masterpiece for one of Italy's cycling giants

www.cyclingnews.com