Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Coffeeplanter]

The one thing that is irking me the most from this whole charade is how Matxin and Gianetti are just basically urinating us in the mouth, and everyone is allowing them to. The Bald Brothers are the #1 and #2 dodgy figures in the world of cycling today, but they have us on strings.

Why was Armstrong caught, why even did we/they continue to bother about his obvious usage many years into his retirement? Because, aside from putting up otherworldly performances every year, Armstrong and Bruyneel were arrogant. It would seem Matxin and Gianetti took this to heart, made some sort of masterplan and decided to do the complete opposite: we are going to be wholesome, kind and jubilant. It has resulted in this Pogacar propaganda machine where they are on a continuous chase for clout, and it’s working. So much so that nobody with any sort of power is questioning this stuff. ‘Look how he gave his bidon to that fan. The kid never left him, it’s beautiful!’.

Others, despite achievements and performances subpar in comparison to what we have witnessed this season but specifically this weekend, were scrutinised for far less, but, alas, here we are. Tadej Pogacar, p/b Matxin and Gianetti, with the help of carbon monoxide of your local car exhaust.

I do not wish this upon them, but my guess would be this stuff will not see its end until someone ends up like Tom Simpson. Cycling is cooked.

 

[Cookster15]

Sure it can. The majority of followers still believe. Mainstream media remains silent.
Nine stage victories as a non-sprinter in less than two Grand Tours. The majority with a considerable time difference.
It's absurd for anyone with critical thinking skills.

Critical thinking? But 2022 and 2023 were freak shows too - particularly that Combloux TT. The MSM never questioned Vingo either, particularly the Danish media.

This is called natural evolution in an arms race. It seems it’s Visma’s turn to get overconfident. I have absolutely zero sympathy for them. You play the game and this can happen. Seems they badly underestimated their rivals.

 

[Salvarani]

The one thing that is irking me the most from this whole charade is how Matxin and Gianetti are just basically urinating us in the mouth, and everyone is allowing them to. The Bald Brothers are the #1 and #2 dodgy figures in the world of cycling today, but they have us on strings.

Why was Armstrong caught, why even did we/they continue to bother about his obvious usage many years into his retirement? Because, aside from putting up otherworldly performances every year, Armstrong and Bruyneel were arrogant. It would seem Matxin and Gianetti took this to heart, made some sort of masterplan and decided to do the complete opposite: we are going to be wholesome, kind and jubilant. It has resulted in this Pogacar propaganda machine where they are on a continuous chase for clout, and it’s working. So much so that nobody with any sort of power is questioning this stuff. ‘Look how he gave his bidon to that fan. The kid never left him, it’s beautiful!’.

Others, despite achievements and performances subpar in comparison to what we have witnessed this season but specifically this weekend, were scrutinised for far less, but, alas, here we are. Tadej Pogacar, p/b Matxin and Gianetti, with the help of carbon monoxide of your local car exhaust.

I do not wish this upon them, but my guess would be this stuff will not see its end until someone ends up like Tom Simpson. Cycling is cooked.

I think it is like this.

Cycling has always been extremely tough. It is one of the hardest sports you can practice and it is brutal towards your body. Not to mention that it is very dangerous. Crashes and so on.

Since the inception guys have used all kinds of stuff to be able to get up and ride every day. Especially race every day like during a GT, which is probably one of the hardest things you can ever do sportswise.

Everybody knows this within the sport who has ridden themselves and that they wouldnt be able to do these things without enhancing performance or taking certain things. They just wouldnt be able to ride every day and compete. There is no way.

When the sport is built upon that and fundamental to even be able to do it at a professional level... like where do you start?

You can never say thats what they are doing, but everyone knows thats what they are doing and they all have to do it.

 

[fenns]

let's face it Lance only got outed when he crossed the US Feds and USADA. If it were left to cycling every July we'd still have Phil Liggett telling us how great he was.

 

[Forever The Best]

By the way what is the highest rolling season CQ score? Pogacar currently has 4190 at the moment and can increase it if he wins the Tour. Hell, his current value is currently off the charts in the graphic.
For single season it is Pogacar at 3656 in 2021. Currently he is at 3221, more than half of Philipsen at 1513.

 

[Ilmaestro99]

I remember the old press conferences with froom, porte and brailsfraud, all looking like they would rather be anywhere else as they got asked difficult and awkward questions

Not that I think those guys were clean, the opposite infact, but what Pogacar has been doing since late 2019 is so much more ridiculous and obvious, and yet now he is asked 'ooooo Tadej when you will attack tomorrow???''', 'ooooo Tadej you think Jonas is better than ever??'

He is so absurdly rocket fueled he might as well ride around on an ebike, but it seems like people don't care to ask questions like they did 10 years ago? Does fans not care about dopping anymore?

For me its becomes difficult to have any meaningful discussion about the sport in the forum outside of the clinic

 

[ashhutch1997]

The one thing that is irking me the most from this whole charade is how Matxin and Gianetti are just basically urinating us in the mouth, and everyone is allowing them to. The Bald Brothers are the #1 and #2 dodgy figures in the world of cycling today, but they have us on strings.

Why was Armstrong caught, why even did we/they continue to bother about his obvious usage many years into his retirement? Because, aside from putting up otherworldly performances every year, Armstrong and Bruyneel were arrogant. It would seem Matxin and Gianetti took this to heart, made some sort of masterplan and decided to do the complete opposite: we are going to be wholesome, kind and jubilant. It has resulted in this Pogacar propaganda machine where they are on a continuous chase for clout, and it’s working. So much so that nobody with any sort of power is questioning this stuff. ‘Look how he gave his bidon to that fan. The kid never left him, it’s beautiful!’.

Others, despite achievements and performances subpar in comparison to what we have witnessed this season but specifically this weekend, were scrutinised for far less, but, alas, here we are. Tadej Pogacar, p/b Matxin and Gianetti, with the help of carbon monoxide of your local car exhaust.

I do not wish this upon them, but my guess would be this stuff will not see its end until someone ends up like Tom Simpson. Cycling is cooked.

Good point. Unfortunately this is just the problem with the hypocrisy in cycling. The same reason Pantani, Ullrich and Riss are still officially TDF winners, but the Armstrong years didn't exist..

 

[Penninepeddler]

Good point. Unfortunately this is just the problem with the hypocrisy in cycling. The same reason Pantani, Ullrich and Riss are still officially TDF winners, but the Armstrong years didn't exist..

I mean, right now we have people running alongside the route in big Ketone bottles... some of the biggest channels around cycling pushing them... teams sponsored by them...

while multiple teams in the peloton are refusing to use them, seemingly...

10 years ago Brailsford was aghast at the suggestion that Sky would consider using legal ketones - implying it would break some boundary - yet now? Advertised everywhere.

Now, whatever you think of Ketones in isolation... it is a bizarre time for sure.

 

[Ripper]

All that + The Goatad

Fixed that for you

 

[Danskebjerge]

I think it is like this.

Cycling has always been extremely tough. It is one of the hardest sports you can practice and it is brutal towards your body. Not to mention that it is very dangerous. Crashes and so on.

Since the inception guys have used all kinds of stuff to be able to get up and ride every day. Especially race every day like during a GT, which is probably one of the hardest things you can ever do sportswise.

Everybody knows this within the sport who has ridden themselves and that they wouldnt be able to do these things without enhancing performance or taking certain things. They just wouldnt be able to ride every day and compete. There is no way.

When the sport is built upon that and fundamental to even be able to do it at a professional level... like where do you start?

You can never say thats what they are doing, but everyone knows thats what they are doing and they all have to do it.

I agree with some of what you are saying, but I don't buy the motion that cycling is more extreme than all other sports. You could easily have Grand Tours with riders that are not doped. The main difference will be the speed in mountains and on flat roads, but to the ordinary spectator this difference will not be visible. So all in all, we don't get anything positive out of doping other than if you think it's cool with supermen like Pogacar who races at top level all year round.

 

[Salvarani]

I agree with some of what you are saying, but I don't buy the motion that cycling is more extreme than all other sports. You could easily have Grand Tours with riders that are not doped. The main difference will be the speed in mountains and on flat roads, but to the ordinary spectator this difference will not be visible. So all in all, we don't get anything positive out of doping other than if you think it's cool with supermen like Pogacar who races at top level all year round.

I just dont think there has ever been a GT where riders werent doped or on something. So there is no way of knowning that.

Speeds will be down and I think it will definitely be visible to spectators if the riders were all "clean".

And a lot of them would just not do the things that are asked of them to do in these races. Everything as we know it would look and be completely different. It is just not the sport and how it was set up. Like I said, throughout every era it has been about to manage your efforts and your enhance performance over competitors. It is what makes the difference.

This is so deep-rooted in the distances and the suffering that cycling is all about.

 

[inri2000]

There are so many things to focus on in the last two stages, the Danish commentators praising his "high cadence" like they used to do with Armstrong, their comment that he was riding the big ring at 9% incline which Riis was famous for, that he climbed for 1 minute at 27 km/h on also a 9% gradient, but that he looked completely fresh at line is when everyone looked dead was one of the biggest "mask off" Landis type moments

https://twitter.com/x/status/1812843823019507720

View: https://x.com/JWoodOMFS/status/1812843823019507720

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

By the way, in terms of the Pogi versus Vingegaard discussion, I don't think their overall levels are remotely comparable. One is a highly specialized GC guy, cut from the same cloth as the GC winners of the past many, many years. He climbs supremely well, and his time trial is for the most part very good, with last year's Combloux-time trial as a notable exception where he wasn't just very good but out of this world good. That's mostly Nibali, Contador, Froome territory, it's not something that we haven't seen before.

Pogacar, on the other hand, wins in every thinkable terrain, on any thinkable parcours, and he does so attacking from 50-80 kilometers out, and when he crosses the line he looks like he just came home from a Sunday ride. This guy is Eddy Merckx, Bernard Hinault territory, which in my opinion, is a far worse sign for the credibility of this sport than another "run-off-the-mill" GC specialist. Because Pogi is essentially replicating feats from a long-gone time when cycling was not a borderline scientific field with marginal gains.

If you want some statistics for reference, Vingegaard is currently having a career-best season in terms of win percentage. He has six race victories (in other words, not counting GC wins) in 30 race days putting him at a 20 percent win rate. This will certainly drop. Again, this, a 20 percent win rate, is Vingegaard's best season ever. Pogacar's career (!!!) win rate is better than this at 21 percent. 65 race victories in 314 race days. This season, he is peaking out at 33 percent with 15 race victories in 46 race days.

I know that Vingegaard's incredible climbing performances raise a lot of eyebrows, but at least he can be said to be a highly specialized rider. Imagine, on the other hand, if Contador had been matching Hushovd in classics sprints, dropping Cancellara on the cobbles, and then climbing better than Schleck. That's what Pogacar is, that's what Pogacar does. It's simply not believable.

wouldnt surprise me at all of pogi shows up at PR next year and docks 3 minutes into VDP who already knocks 3 minutes into the rest. Pre historic times

 

[Taxus4a]

First time I read this part of the forum and I write, becouse I have information and there werent any fact to make me came here.

And I dont really chose my mind, but it is the first time I see a performance that have to be analize at least becouse is enough impresive to make questions.

I love Ppgacar as rider, he is really talented and I dont think other way, but when you see people talking of doping when he wins easily and Pantani put 1 minute to him at Oropa, in my case I dont look for more information...

But Plateau de Beille has been climbed many times for very good riders and if the record is for Pantni should be a good day of Pantani, no a day with bad wind, bad conditions, etc...

Oropa was at the end of the Giro for Pantani and at the begining for Pogacar. With EPo the difference at the beggining is minimal, but is important at the end. As Hamilton said at his interesting Book you could won even a Dauphine clean, and in fact there were people that made it in those dark years, but you cant win a 3 weeks races, despite you were clearly the best ,againts a blood doper.

Things has improved a lot, I consider Pogacar even better climber than Pantani (and I dont consider Pogacar a pure climber). Bike and everything changed a lot for speed, especially for the flat, but as well for the climb. And with a better food control, suplements and training camp in altitude they made a similar efect to EPO.

But more than 3 minutes is too much with Pantani.

I watched yesterday the climb of the italian iat 98. The stage was shorter and early in the Tour, but not much early, that is true. By the contray, the previous stage was really long and hard, They climbed Ausbique, Tourmalet, Aspin and Peyresourde, and in general the Tour had stages of more than 200 Km..even of 250. You have to consider that comparing eras.

The develop of the stage climb was different. Pantani attacked for far and did it alone. It is not the same that to go on the wheel of Vingeaard lot of Km and later attack and go solo about 4 kilometres. That could be a minute. But a minute is still 2 and a half minutes better than Pantani. 5 % better. That 5 per cent would have easy explanation if Pantani would have rode clean, just with the improvements of today in all the aspect of cycling.

But taking that into consideration, the doubt is there..and more if you have bihind people as Giannetti. I dont say is something wrong with Gianneti and Matxin now, but they have a past and it woudl have been better with other people.

I believe in this performance If I dont have other data that make me think different. Of course they use today Ketones and things like that, but it is the first time I see a performance that put me in observation in lot of years.

I know Landa,, I know he would leave cycling before to dope, he doesnt need this, but the fact is that Pogacar put him more than 3 minutes, and Landa is a supertalent from Juniors to climb and now he is at his best.

If there is nothing strange at this performance, it is the most impressive in terms of numbers I have ever saw in a legal performance.

Some people not well informed call Froome a doper, but he race in an era no so different to this (in fact he is riding still) and he was 5 minutes behind Pogacar in a good day for Froome.

 

[Taxus4a]

No, Pogacar got the line at the limit, he was really tired and thirsty. I dont know where you see him so fresh...He was fresh at the Giro becouse he was training..There was no rival at the level of the top ten of this Tour. Maybe Martinez could have reached a top ten this Tour, but not a top 8. Pogacar domestiques are stronger.

 

[inri2000]

No, Pogacar got the line at the limit, he was really tired and thirsty. I dont know where you see him so fresh...He was fresh at the Giro becouse he was training..There was no rival at the level of the top ten of this Tour. Maybe Martinez could have reached a top ten this Tour, but not a top 8. Pogacar domestiques are stronger.

No point in arguing about this, to me, he looked relatively fresh after he crossed the line and judging be the tweet I linked to I was not alone with this perception. Of course he was thirsty, or he would be a robot. I didn't watch or comment on his performance at the Giro

 

[kingjr]

No point in arguing about this, to me, he looked relatively fresh after he crossed the line and judging be the tweet I linked to I was not alone with this perception. Of course he was thirsty, or he would be a robot. I didn't watch or comment on his performance at the Giro

Watch him ask for something to drink after the finish, he was so out of breath he could barely get the words out.

 

[houtdffan]

wouldnt surprise me at all of pogi shows up at PR next year and docks 3 minutes into VDP who already knocks 3 minutes into the rest. Pre historic times

after the gravel stage this year, may see both Pog and Remco 10 minutes ahead of VDP. The two new love birds will work together to cook the peloton

 

[zlev11]

I mean, right now we have people running alongside the route in big Ketone bottles... some of the biggest channels around cycling pushing them... teams sponsored by them...

while multiple teams in the peloton are refusing to use them, seemingly...

10 years ago Brailsford was aghast at the suggestion that Sky would consider using legal ketones - implying it would break some boundary - yet now? Advertised everywhere.

Now, whatever you think of Ketones in isolation... it is a bizarre time for sure.

yes, you can now buy ketones at the grocery store. which makes me think they dont actually do much of anything. they are ridiculously expensive, though.

 

[Monoxidator]

yes, you can now buy ketones at the grocery store. which makes me think they dont actually do much of anything. they are ridiculously expensive, though.

Ketones don't do anything like improve your performance by 10-15%. They may help your mental focus a bit while you're under physical stress, allow you to push through the pain and focus on the goal a tiny bit, but it's barely measurable. And that's with research sponsored by the companies selling the product. Beating a doping record by 10% ... that's not possible without doping.

Better bikes, nutrition, better training and recovery ... you might convince me that you could equal the doping records ... maybe. It's not like progress doesn't happen... but 10% better than that is a LOT. That's not "marginal gains" that's superhuman.

 

[Amazinmets87]

Yea, I'm thinking motors. Why are the tubes and bottom brackets so bulbous on these modern bikes? It's likely to conceal batteries and miniscule motors.

What undetectable drug is powerful enough to provide a 3 minute buffer over riders with access to unfettered EPO use?

Has to be motors.

 

[DutchDynamite]

Ketones don't do anything like improve your performance by 10-15%. They may help your mental focus a bit while you're under physical stress, allow you to push through the pain and focus on the goal a tiny bit, but it's barely measurable. And that's with research sponsored by the companies selling the product. Beating a doping record by 10% ... that's not possible without doping.

Better bikes, nutrition, better training and recovery ... you might convince me that you could equal the doping records ... maybe. It's not like progress doesn't happen... but 10% better than that is a LOT. That's not "marginal gains" that's superhuman.

its not like armstrong and co where eating burger all the time and lying on the couch the whole day....
they were all highly trained athletes with a lot of knowledge in training and nutrition as well...

this sh*t is just unbelievable

 

[Taxus4a]

Ketones don't do anything like improve your performance by 10-15%. They may help your mental focus a bit while you're under physical stress, allow you to push through the pain and focus on the goal a tiny bit, but it's barely measurable. And that's with research sponsored by the companies selling the product. Beating a doping record by 10% ... that's not possible without doping.

Better bikes, nutrition, better training and recovery ... you might convince me that you could equal the doping records ... maybe. It's not like progress doesn't happen... but 10% better than that is a LOT. That's not "marginal gains" that's superhuman.

Of course no Ketones, if you buy today a similar bike that perform like Pantani it cost about 500 euros, if you bye Pogacar one, it is about 10000, I dont pay so much if the improvement is not about 2 minutes just the bike in plkateay de Bielle. But today is even the clothes better. and the improvemente is about 8%, but if you comsider at the begining in the 1998 nobidy was working properly, the were looking each other, in fact beltran attacked easyly and when Pantani attack Jorgesson was still working and he had some time more, and Vibgegaard made a super work for Pogacar the difference is 5 %. it is not the same the speed in an ITT than in a TTT. 5% could be even juist the bike with those times...I see much lees people at the end part at Pantani performance, so the wind could be more, motorbikes help sometimes a lot yesterday..but it is true similar to Pantani- As I said Pantani did a great time, so the conditions should be good, except temperature, even higher than yesterday and they didnt have ice and those things they have now.

 

[Taxus4a]

Pantani had a bike 0,7 kilos heavier, less aerodinamic, and surely other factors make today bikes better. Climb a climb as Plateau, with a bag with 1,5 bottles and for sure you will take more time.

No, just the performance itself is not for sure a doping performance, even when Pantani was a very doper rider, but it is an amazing performance to study and to make us questions...and that is not bad..in other sport nobody make questions and I see much more amazing things.

What is was imposisble is that in those years Festina was proven dopers and to think than the rest of people who beated Festina riders where all clean. It was clear and lot of deluded people didnt realize, the same today lot of deluded people dont relized things changed.

 

[Taxus4a]

its not like armstrong and co where eating burger all the time and lying on the couch the whole day....
they were all highly trained athletes with a lot of knowledge in training and nutrition as well...

this sh*t is just unbelievable

No, things changed a lot from Lance era in all those aspect. They took care of nutrition and lot of things but nothing in comparision as today. They trained no less than now, but now they train better.

But I dont consider Evans a doper and I am sure he would be close to Pogacar in most of races if he started this era ta the same time with the same legal methods. In fact, when doping started to disspeard, he maneged to win le Tour and to be World Champion, with worse age for that.