Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Nomad]

No, just the performance itself is not for sure a doping performance, even when Pantani was a very doper rider, but it is an amazing performance to study and to make us questions...and that is not bad..in other sport nobody make questions and I see much more amazing things.

That's an understatement as Pantani's doping history is very well-publicized. In addition to EPO, he used anabolic steroids, GH, Insulin, IGF-1 & Levothyroid. He was a client of the infamous Dr Fuentes & Operation Puerto - the biggest doping ring of the era.

When he rode for Carrera, Francisco Conconi was the team doctor overseeing the team's EPO program. According to released documents, Pantani's Hct fluctuated around the upper 50s from a baseline of 40.7 (when crashed at the 95 Milano-Torino & was taken to the hospital, his Hct was reportedly at 60!). And he was DQ'd while leading the 99 Giro for violating the 50% Hct safety level.

No question Pantani was a career doper & a very good responder to O2-Vector doping as evident by his alien climbing ability - arguably the best climber of all time.

 

[Nomad]

As long as Pog doesn't become cocky and arrogant like LA a d keeps smiling, I don't think they'll pop him. Let's not forget, Indurain never got popped despite clearly being on the hot sauce.

That's a good point - Big Mig is a hometown hero & very well loved by the Spanish faithful. I think he's a commentator for Spanish television (?).

If only LA would have behaved himself, been more humble & less arrogant, i.e. assumed the role of a "good doper," he too would be a hometown hero & probably in the broadcast both with Phil Liggett. Lol.

 

[Netserk]

Pogacar is visibly better due to a new coach. But how much can we attribute to bald fraud -> Sola? This has been the picture the whole season, and honestly after watching efforts to Livigno and Grappa, these numbers shouldn't be THAT surprising considering everything we have seen, what we know and what mou has said in 2024. His w/kg threshold has gone from a slight weakness compared to Vingegaard to the best ever. So - we have a generational talent on our hands, who after two years of losing chose to mix it up and has obviously gotten better, but can we contribute that to a new training regiment alone? Probably not, especially not when factoring Vingegaard in who is almost as good, and better than previous years, with a supoptimal preparation.

Im very intrigued to what you guys can come up with. Chances are UAE and Visma especially have an edge, but what is it? Doping sure, but what doping? How, when, what?

Motors? Gimme a break, this is not a science fiction novel.

Please. You're not the most dominant rider in the world and the best climber of the season in 2021 if you are hilariously poorly trained. Be real. Whatever training he did before, it was good enough to be in the lead of the rolling CQ ranking for 138 weeks. He has gained more than 10 % power since then. Change of trainer => change in doping.

 

[Monoxidator]

Please. You're not the most dominant rider in the world and the best climber of the season in 2021 if you are hilariously poorly trained. Be real. Whatever training he did before, it was good enough to be in the lead of the rolling CQ ranking for 138 weeks. He has gained more than 10 % power since then. Change of trainer => change in doping.

To be charitable to the fanboys of these mutant performances, the CO doping is in a gray area ... illegal in spirit but not explicitly banned. So maybe it's all good? Until people start dropping dead the party goes on.

 

[Red Rick]

To be charitable to the fanboys of these mutant performances, the CO doping is in a gray area ... illegal in spirit but not explicitly banned. So maybe it's all good? Until people start dropping dead the party goes on.

Only way it's clean is if WADA never bothered.

But I really don't believe in CO cause the adaptive response should literally just the same as blowing up your hematocrit.

 

[Red Rick]

Please. You're not the most dominant rider in the world and the best climber of the season in 2021 if you are hilariously poorly trained. Be real. Whatever training he did before, it was good enough to be in the lead of the rolling CQ ranking for 138 weeks. He has gained more than 10 % power since then. Change of trainer => change in doping.

What stands out to me is that Vingegaard made a great big leap in performance as well, on like 5-6 weeks of real training.

Like do people seriously believe exercise science improves by 3-5% per year? After being completely stagnant for years.

 

[Valv.Piti]

At no point did I say he was hilariously bad coach. Mou did, I didn't, but different training regiments can obviously have a pretty big impact on performance. That would be weird to deny, especially when said coach had a very specific way of doing things.

Im aware that "training" can also be doping, but it would be stupid IMO to simply just ignore a change of training - especially when the new training might be a decent amount different, better and what not. In my post I even say he's most likely doping, but thats easy to say. Question is what he's on, what changed from just a year ago and why other teams are so much behind? Those questions are much more interesting and frankly adds a lot more value than simply just yelling doping.

Its somewhat paradoxical that clinic posters are up in arms over a certain way to behave, omertá, what to say and what not say etc. when it comes to journalists, experts and commentators turning a blind eye to this side of the sport. I agree with that, but on the other hand, I think this subforum would be much better off also trying to explain some of these extraterrestial times with other things than JUST doping. Most of us know that it shouldn't be possible in theory to do what Pog and Vingegaard are doing without doping, but there are also many contributing factors to the w/kg we saw yesterday - absolutely perfect pacing with Jumbo domestiques Vingegaard included, Pog being in the shape of his life (that doesnt explain Jonas' performance), new trainer etc. etc. I think that goes without saying, but I feel like on this particular forum, it apparantly doesnt

 

[Monoxidator]

Only way it's clean is if WADA never bothered.

But I really don't believe in CO cause the adaptive response should literally just the same as blowing up your hematocrit.

But they could argue and get TUE's saying "he (pog , ving, Gee etc) is a super-responder to altitude... he just keeps getting better!" I don't know what the appetite for saying "no" to this is for the UCI.

 

[Ricco']

Equipment basically plays no part in running

It does.

The new carbon plated shoes make noticeable improvements. Even in sprints, carbon plated spikes provide a more agressive stride and stronger rebounds on the ground.

Carbon plated spikes arrived when I was no longer doing serious training, but from my experience even a pair of spikes with 3d printed soles (Nike Ja Fly were the ones I used) were noticeably grippier on the bends and had and attacking angle that improved speeds and times compared to sprint spikes from other brands I used.

Not to speak of track designs and constructions methods, that make state of the art facilities (mainly Mondo tracks) be quicker than older venues.

 

[Red Rick]

But they could argue and get TUE's saying "he (pog , ving, Gee etc) is a super-responder to altitude... he just keeps getting better!" I don't know what the appetite for saying "no" to this is for the UCI.

If it's all just blood passport doesn't work and we just let them go to 60% then that's actually boring and more disgusting.

Give me the *** blue blooded lugworms damnit

 

[Monoxidator]

At no point did I say he was hilariously bad coach. Mou did, I didn't, but different training regiments can obviously have a pretty big impact on performance. That would be weird to deny, especially when said coach had a very specific way of doing things.

Im aware that "training" can also be doping, but it would be stupid IMO to simply just ignore a change of training - especially when the new training might be a decent amount different, better and what not. In my post I even say he's most likely doping, but thats easy to say. Question is what he's on, what changed from just a year ago and why other teams are so much behind? Those questions are much more interesting and frankly adds a lot more value than simply just yelling doping.

Its somewhat paradoxical that clinic posters are up in arms over a certain way to behave, omertá, what to say and what not say etc. when it comes to journalists, experts and commentators turning a blind eye to this side of the sport. I agree with that, but on the other hand, I think this subforum would be much better off also trying to explain some of these extraterrestial times with other things than JUST doping. Most of us know that it shouldn't be possible in theory to do what Pog and Vingegaard are doing without doping, but there are also many contributing factors to the w/kg we saw yesterday - absolutely perfect pacing with Jumbo domestiques Vingegaard included, Pog being in the shape of his life (that doesnt explain Jonas' performance), new trainer etc. etc. I think that goes without saying, but I feel like on this particular forum, it apparantly doesnt

If the sport really cared about having a clean image, they should have kicked out Mauro and all the other dopers instead of elevating them to higher and higher prominence. By keeping these criminals in charge, they are begging for the clinic to assume it's doping.

 

[Low is rhe new high]

The response of Orla Chennaoui and Robbie to Jonathan Vaughters who mentioned the climbing time yesterday was quite shocking. He didn't even mention or insinuate anything doping-related, just the time and was immediately snapped back at with NUTRITIONAEROBIKESNEWTRAINING, it was like some kind of weird programmed response. I remember this interview had quite an effect on me when I was younger, and something he says in it really rang true yesterday;

Thanks great clip. The journalists (and pundits) are also much more dependent on selling the product of cycling these days compared to even the 90s where a journalist was not a part of the entertainment. The people of l`Equipe in the 90s was not the same as the people sitting in the discovery studio that is working for cykling and there own careers which is solely dependent on selling the product of cycling. You basically do not bite the hand thats feed you, and the same is true for the cycling pods. There is no benefit of exposing the use of PEDs. In the 90s you could still make career as an investigating journalist. If you try it these days it is likely that you will end up poor and with a ruined reputation (and basically have your life ruined on the internet ) even if you actually did do a great job.

 

[Netserk]

To be charitable to the fanboys of these mutant performances, the CO doping is in a gray area ... illegal in spirit but not explicitly banned. So maybe it's all good? Until people start dropping dead the party goes on.

It's banned as an illegal method, no?

PROHIBITED METHODS

M1. MANIPULATION OF BLOOD AND BLOOD COMPONENTS

The following are prohibited:
1. The Administration or reintroduction of any quantity of autologous, allogenic (homologous)
or heterologous blood, or red blood cell products of any origin into the circulatory system.
2. Artificially enhancing the uptake, transport or delivery of oxygen.
Including, but not limited to:
Perfluorochemicals; efaproxiral (RSR13); voxelotor and modified haemoglobin products,
e.g. haemoglobin-based blood substitutes and microencapsulated haemoglobin
products, excluding supplemental oxygen by inhalation.
3. Any form of intravascular manipulation of the blood or blood components by physical
or chemical means.

 

[Valv.Piti]

It does.

The new carbon plated shoes make noticeable improvements. Even in sprints, carbon plated spikes provide a more agressive stride and stronger rebounds on the ground.

Carbon plated spikes arrived when I was no longer doing serious training, but from my experience even a pair of spikes with 3d printed soles (Nike Ja Fly were the ones I used) were noticeably grippier on the bends and had and attacking angle that improved speeds and times compared to sprint spikes from other brands I used.

Not to speak of track designs and constructions methods, that make state of the art facilities (mainly Mondo tracks) be quicker than older venues.

Thats good points. But I'd still suggest that a pair of running shoes aimed to run a marathon in 94 compared to 2024 is still of significantly lower difference than a bike from 94 compared to 2024.

 

[Taxus4a]

That's an understatement as Pantani's doping history is very well-publicized. In addition to EPO, he used anabolic steroids, GH, Insulin, IGF-1 & Levothyroid. He was a client of the infamous Dr Fuentes & Operation Puerto - the biggest doping ring of the era.

When he rode for Carrera, Francisco Conconi was the team doctor overseeing the team's EPO program. According to released documents, Pantani's Hct fluctuated around the upper 50s from a baseline of 40.7 (when crashed at the 95 Milano-Torino & was taken to the hospital, his Hct was reportedly at 60!). And he was DQ'd while leading the 99 Giro for violating the 50% Hct safety level.

No question Pantani was a career doper & a very good responder to O2-Vector doping as evident by his alien climbing ability - arguably the best climber of all time.

It is what I said: Pantani was a very doper rider...but not very different of anothers of his era. Belli, Gotti, etc...

And no, even with all that doping, Bahamontes climbed better.

 

[Valv.Piti]

If the sport really cared about having a clean image, they should have kicked out Mauro and all the other dopers instead of elevating them to higher and higher prominence. By keeping these criminals in charge, they are begging for the clinic to assume it's doping.

For me its not necessarily the men behind (although that certainly doesnt help), but its the numbers coupled with the eyetest. I think Tadej following Jonas' attack while supposedly looking like being on a sunday ride and pouring water on himself for fun did it for me - I basically knew it was over at that point while also it was obvious visibly that they were going at insane speeds (something that can be quite hard to tell most of times, but not yesterday - they were just blazing the entire climb). All that coupled with time gaps exploding to great climbers is extremely dodgy and should at the very least raise some eyebrows that should be leading to critical questions from journos on the race.

 

[Taxus4a]

Plateau de Beille is so outrageous it makes 2021/2022 seem like a slow era. This is a step change (for both Pogi and Vingegaard).

Either they got carte blanche this year or a new method/drug has been introduced. Or motors.

No. It is quite stupid you try to compare years just with the time. Pogacar was clearly slower this year at Oropa than Pantani, and Pogacar make an exhibition and maybe was the day of the Giro he give more of his potential.
Of course we have now a generation with very talented riders and that makes the difference, as well lot of things are improving year by year, but to analyze a climb compering and edition to another you have to take a lot of things into consideration, and this year of course the way he climbed, always a rider of quality giving everything is The best. It is the same Adam Yates works for you, or is better than Vingegaard make? Adam Yates is the current winer os Tour de Swisse, but of course is better Vingegaard works for you, you are going to get a better time.

 

[Netserk]

At no point did I say he was hilariously bad coach. Mou did, I didn't, but different training regiments can obviously have a pretty big impact on performance. That would be weird to deny, especially when said coach had a very specific way of doing things.

Im aware that "training" can also be doping, but it would be stupid IMO to simply just ignore a change of training - especially when the new training might be a decent amount different, better and what not. In my post I even say he's most likely doping, but thats easy to say. Question is what he's on, what changed from just a year ago and why other teams are so much behind? Those questions are much more interesting and frankly adds a lot more value than simply just yelling doping.

Its somewhat paradoxical that clinic posters are up in arms over a certain way to behave, omertá, what to say and what not say etc. when it comes to journalists, experts and commentators turning a blind eye to this side of the sport. I agree with that, but on the other hand, I think this subforum would be much better off also trying to explain some of these extraterrestial times with other things than JUST doping. Most of us know that it shouldn't be possible in theory to do what Pog and Vingegaard are doing without doping, but there are also many contributing factors to the w/kg we saw yesterday - absolutely perfect pacing with Jumbo domestiques Vingegaard included, Pog being in the shape of his life (that doesnt explain Jonas' performance), new trainer etc. etc. I think that goes without saying, but I feel like on this particular forum, it apparantly doesnt

Training can make a big difference only if he was hilariously poorly trained. But then you kick the can down the road and have to tell me how he was the best climber in the world in 2021 despite being hilariously poorly trained.

We're not talking 0.1 % or 1 % improvement of the best climber in the world. 10 %!

 

[Extinction]

Rest day: journalists and tvs usually asked questions about doping. Has anyone asked any questions?

what the *** has to happen to ask questions or do something?

There are zero new "Pogacar doping" articles on Google. there is practically nothing.
The only one who writes something is Vayer on X, exiled in his house in Brittany.



Ventoux 2021, he can do a fake new little crack. I said it.

That's because the gains in talking doping have now been offset by the threat of losing everything. Everybody knows another doping scandal involving a showcase rider will do more harm than good. When it was a good story to sell all were on board. Now that it is not, crickets. There's no difference between selling what everybody wants to know and what they don't want to here. The point is that consumption remains.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Training can make a big difference only if he was hilariously poorly trained. But then you kick the can down the road and have to tell me how he was the best climber in the world in 2021 despite being hilariously poorly trained.

We're not talking 0.1 % or 1 % improvement of the best climber in the world. 10 %!

By the way, and I dont know how many times I need to state this: Im not explaining Pogacar suddenly finding this new level only due to a new trainer. I think that should be obvious to you by now, but it seems it isnt. There obviously isn't just one factor that can contribute to that rise, its obviously a lot more complex than just that. And some of the explanation should most likely be found in at least the grey area or flat out doping.

On the training part I think we clearly have to disagree on that part. I seem to think it has more merit than you, and thats about it.

 

[Red Rick]

We're full on in populist rhetoric. The masses want the lies. So the lies they get.

 

[Ripper]

It would be dumb for him to start talking about that. I don't think he's as bad of a character as the media portrays, but I don't think he can really stand on any ground to start speculating publicly...it'd be such a bad look and he is in the social media/content business now.
I don't think his analyses are really that great either...lots of rambling in between shilling supplements.

I would love to hear Horner's or Bruyneel's unfiltered takes (not that they could speak about this stuff either), IMO they are the best analyzers of cycling racing that produce media/content.

The Move is just Bros Talkin'!! Bro time

Cognitive dissonance in the industry is probably at least as strong if not stronger. I think Dumo said that yesterday was possible if everything combined to be just perfect. So ... for a moment ... let's put reason aside and say that assumption is correct. If everything has to be perfect and aligned for something to be possible without doping, that is really not a strong statement that a performance is clean, is it?

 

[MortiroloForever]

I was watching The Clinic thread on Parlamento Ciclista and I found a very interesing message written by the user AKAI_D. He put in numbers the evolution of Pogacar performances during last 3 years and he concludes that his improvement has been %13.3 from 2021 to 2024.

I think the thread is really interesting and it's understandable even if you don't know much of Spanish (it's my mother tongue; that's why I writte so badly here xD).

Teoría de la conspiración: El Rincón de los Conspiranoicos (XIV)

Que sigan los circlejerks conspiranóicos, que esto no para.

forodeciclismo.mforos.com

In terms of time, this would be his times over the last years:

AKAI_D wrote on Parlamento Ciclista:

Mis respuestas, basándome en las estimaciones de los datos de potencia serían las siguientes:

- Tadej Pogachar 2020: 45 minutos.

- Tadej Pogachar 2021: 45 minutos.

- Tadej Pogachar 2022: 44 minutos 30 segundos.

- Tadej Pogachar 2023: 43 minutos.

- Tadej Pogachar 2024: 40 minutos. (este tiempo es real, no es estimación).

Considering that he was very young (but he was at a super high level at that time) when he won his first Tour of France it is understandable that his future version of himself get better numbers, but the jump he is doing from last year to 2024 is from another planet.

To be honest it isn't something that caught me by surprise. We all know Matxin and Gianetti and we all know their "modus operandi". We just have to take his Saunier Duval team and see how it started and how it ended: the performance curve over the years followed a very similar pattern to this Pogacar performances: slight increases at the beggining and then a super jump to wittness Cobonauta in action followed by Gómez Marchante (who won his only ITT under Matxin management) and Koldo Gil in an epic trio what was only avoided by a late crash.

 

[fenns]

Thats good points. But I'd still suggest that a pair of running shoes aimed to run a marathon in 94 compared to 2024 is still of significantly lower difference than a bike from 94 compared to 2024.

especially if the bike has a motor in it

 

[Nomad]

It is what I said: Pantani was a very doper rider...but not very different of anothers of his era. Belli, Gotti, etc...

And no, even with all that doping, Bahamontes climbed better.

Say what? Pantani was very different from most others of his era. He clearly was a very good responder to doping & willing to push the envelope as evident by his alien climbing ability. Did you know that the top 3 all-time fastest times up Alpe d'Huez is still held by Pantani (if that's not alien, IDK what is then. Lol).

Doping doesn't level the playing field - on the contrary it unlevels it significantly. You have good responders & not so good responders, you have athletes willing to push the envelope with high doses and/or multiple compounds, athletes willing to push their Hct into the stratosphere, etc. IMO, Pantani wouldn't have been a top climber in anything without PEDs.

Look at LA - excellent responder to PEDs. And an organized doped team with also some pretty good responders (e.g. Hamilton, Heras, Landis, etc). Factor in LA's uncanny luck of never crashing out of a Tour & you have your best placed doper for 7 straight years. Lol.