Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Salvarani]

There was that quote about poor people become pro-cyclists as it's too tough for well-to-do folk.

?

 

[Rob5091]

?

Not read that? Probably an old quote before MAMIL's etc. and when guys were not getting 300,000 Euro watches.

 

[NFTtiddies]

Most pro riders are doing something just to be there. It is evident it is in the identity of the sport. They arent able to ride amount of races and the length of them to compete/race, without being on something. Do it or don’t be a pro. Everybody knows.

This is so deep-rooted and goes back to the very start of it all.

It starts as early as U15 when kids discover caffeine shots, U17 and they're already onto nitrate shots, Nose sprays, beta-alanine, sodium bicarb... all of the "legal" stuff. U20 and you're likely on gear already and U23 you've missed the boat.

 

[ppanther92]

Do you reckon this Mou thing is a smokescreen for doping? They know there will be huge questions on Pogi's improvement this year so they release these explanations about his training improvements. But they know it will be dismissed if it comes from official channels, so they post it on this forum as if written by some lunatic. This way people will love it and make it some weird cult thing. People will also think that if there are leaks over this there would be leaks over doping. This also provides some explanations as well that people will believe

Would be the best strategic move I have ever seen from UAE

 

[bigcog]

Froome was almost "killed" just because he did 6.1 w/kg on La pierre saint martin in 40 min.

Indeed, strange times we live in ...

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

The Badger says he's clean, so turn the lights off, and shut the door on The Clinic...we have the definitive opinion..."I am disgusted... Why do we always express doubts? Let's stop asking ourselves questions all the time! It's ridiculous... Do we have proof?" - Bernard Hinault (sounting like a 2002 Armstrong supporter...err...2015 Froome supporter...whatever)

Pretty sure Bernie never doped...

 

[Jumbo Visma Fan :)]

Would be the best strategic move I have ever seen from UAE

People are already growing tired of it and sussing it out on twitter.

 

[iceblink]

The Badger says he's clean, so turn the lights off, and shut the door on The Clinic...we have the definitive opinion..."I am disgusted... Why do we always express doubts? Let's stop asking ourselves questions all the time! It's ridiculous... Do we have proof?" - Bernard Hinault (sounting like a 2002 Armstrong supporter...err...2015 Froome supporter...whatever)

Pretty sure Bernie never doped...

Really don't like irrational long time forum members still whining about Froome.

Clearly you all (mostly) were Anglophobes who deserve to be drenched in Froome's urine until you apologise.

 

[Ripper]

The Badger says he's clean, so turn the lights off, and shut the door on The Clinic...we have the definitive opinion..."I am disgusted... Why do we always express doubts? Let's stop asking ourselves questions all the time! It's ridiculous... Do we have proof?" - Bernard Hinault (sounting like a 2002 Armstrong supporter...err...2015 Froome supporter...whatever)

Pretty sure Bernie never doped...

Ha! Like the Badger would know clean if it bit him on the a*s!!

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

Really don't like irrational long time forum members still whining about Froome.

Clearly you all (mostly) were Anglophobes who deserve to be drenched in Froome's urine until you apologise.

You don't know that doesn't turn me on.

 

[QueenStagiaire]

You don't know that doesn't turn me on.

Well, if it turns you on, you would become a Froome fan so everyone wins.

 

[Rob5091]

Do you reckon this Mou thing is a smokescreen for doping? They know there will be huge questions on Pogi's improvement this year so they release these explanations about his training improvements. But they know it will be dismissed if it comes from official channels, so they post it on this forum as if written by some lunatic. This way people will love it and make it some weird cult thing. People will also think that if there are leaks over this there would be leaks over doping. This also provides some explanations as well that people will believe

Would not be something new to be honest. Just think of Cheney's buddy Libby, who leaked to the Press and then Cheney goes out and says, damn the press! How did they get that info? Or Plugge going on about FDJ drinking beers to stop the talk about Vingegaard. Distraction and plausible deniability. Mou is at best a useful idiot or more likely the GOAT Fanboy.

 

[Monoxidator]

Would not be something new to be honest. Just think of Cheney's buddy Libby, who leaked to the Press and then Cheney goes out and says, damn the press! How did they get that info? Or Plugge going on about FDJ drinking beers to stop the talk about Vingegaard. Distraction and plausible deniability. Mou is at best a useful idiot or more likely the GOAT Fanboy.

Fanboys make me physically ill ... sportsball players and celebs are no better than the rest of humanity.

 

[Extinction]

It starts as early as U15 when kids discover caffeine shots, U17 and they're already onto nitrate shots, Nose sprays, beta-alanine, sodium bicarb... all of the "legal" stuff. U20 and you're likely on gear already and U23 you've missed the boat.

I knew 17 year-old guys back in the 80s who were on roids in prep for signior year high school football. So I'm certain some junior cyclists are already on illegal peds.

 

[fbjim]

With salaries for pro sports rising and rising, the "professionalism" of junior sports, and the financial pressure to dope is also rising.

If people were already doping in high school football in the 80s, they 110% are doing it now.

 

[noob]

Would not be something new to be honest. Just think of Cheney's buddy Libby, who leaked to the Press and then Cheney goes out and says, damn the press! How did they get that info? Or Plugge going on about FDJ drinking beers to stop the talk about Vingegaard. Distraction and plausible deniability. Mou is at best a useful idiot or more likely the GOAT Fanboy.

Would it be new that it includes this forum?

 

[fbjim]

Very true, I think the reason why Sky got so much stick off the press and fans was because it was just after Lance came out, so us cycling fans were very sensitive.

It wasn't just this, it was because they explicitly made a big song and dance about how clean they were, and provided inane reasons for their performance.

The fact that they were British didn't help matters - not specifically because of Anglophobia (though that does exist to a degree), but because, on this forum, most of the cycling media is based in the UK, which created the perception of media bias, whether or not that was true.

 

[fbjim]

oh yeah - and the other obvious issue which is that the Sky TDFs were hideously boring to watch. There's a reason people would hold up Contador as an example of "real ciclismo" despite his positives.

 

[Extinction]

With salaries for pro sports rising and rising, the "professionalism" of junior sports, and the financial pressure to dope is also rising.

If people were already doping in high school football in the 80s, they 110% are doing it now.

Of course, and that was my point. If they were doping in the 80s they're definitely doping now. The propaganda holds sport to a moral standard that the rest of society simply doesn't maintain. The competitiveness today, moreover, is way more acute than sport was in the 80s and prior. It's a monster that's been building for decades. It's simply not realistic that today's athletes should be clean, as pharmacalogical science has become increasingly sophisticated, which mirrors the increased sophistication of training methods and gear. Today's riders go at speeds unimaginable back in the 80s and only a fool would believe it's just the result of better nutrition and equipment. And then look who is running the show at UAE. Can we really believe Gianetti is running a clean operation? Have people already forgotten Riccardo Ricco and Leonardo Piepoli? And then there is the whole sportswashing side of the team, funded by a regime that commits every crime against human rights. If I were a pro I'd want nothing to do with such sponsorship. How can anyone in their right mind trust such a set-up?

 

[noob]

And then there is the whole sportswashing side of the team, funded by a regime that commits every crime against human rights. If I were a pro I'd want nothing to do with such sponosorship. How can anyone in their right mind trust such a set-up?

This! Internationalisation of cycling sounds so good, but people forget what it entails! Soon China will join with Astana too and I've no idea how people will explain it when Vino team starts flying as high as UAE. People hate China so let's see how that'll work.

(Is this why Remco is learning Mandarin?! 😱🤣)

 

[Extinction]

This! Internationalisation of cycling sounds so good, but people forget what it entails! Soon China will join with Astana too and I've no idea how people will explain it when Vino team starts flying as high as UAE. People hate China so let's see how that'll work.

(Is this why Remco is learning Mandarin?! 😱🤣)

Cycling just wants money and market exposure and anti-doping must not interfere with this. How can a Vino (like Gianetti) even be running a team otherwise?

 

[Penninepeddler]

Of course, and that was my point. If they were doping in the 80s they're definitely doping now. The propaganda holds sport to a moral standard that the rest of society simply doesn't maintain. The competitiveness today, moreover, is way more acute than sport was in the 80s and prior. It's a monster that's been building for decades. It's simply not realistic that today's athletes should be clean, as pharmacalogical science has become increasingly sophisticated, which mirrors the increased sophistication of training methods and gear. Today's riders go at speeds unimaginable back in the 80s and only a fool would believe it's just the result of better nutrition and equipment. And then look who is running the show at UAE. Can we really believe Gianetti is running a clean operation? Have people already forgotten Riccardo Ricco and Leonardo Piepoli? And then there is the whole sportswashing side of the team, funded by a regime that commits every crime against human rights. If I were a pro I'd want nothing to do with such sponosorship. How can anyone in their right mind trust such a set-up?

I think as well that...

a lot of sports are "cleaner" than 20-40 years ago. BUT most of the sports that are? Primarily "skill" sport. Football, handball, cricket, ice hockey, basketball, baseball for example... I would wager less guys are on something than were back then.

Because the extra attention on drug testing, the societal backlash, the health worries etc? Not worth it as much in sports that - well - dont really require you to be the strongest or having the most stamina to win, and also have a lot of moving parts with so many players on each team etc.

Now, I am also not naïve enough to think that any sport is close to fully clean either... and team sports where pure strength is a bigger advantage? (NFL, water polo, rugby) Yeh, for sure there are higher rates of doping as well still, and in some of these that starts at a younger age too...

but in a sport like cycling (like longer distance running, longer distance swimming and strength based track and field etc)... the advantaged that doping gives relative to chance of winning is significantly more. The risk vs reward is just flipped on its head vs a lot of sports.

90% of winning in a Grand Tour for example, or a marathon, or 1500m swimming? It is having a better V02 Max, having better lactate threshold, having better hemocrit levels.

 

[Bolder]

I think as well that...

a lot of sports are "cleaner" than 20-40 years ago. BUT most of the sports that are? Primarily "skill" sport. Football, handball, cricket, ice hockey, basketball, baseball for example... I would wager less guys are on something than were back then.

Because the extra attention on drug testing, the societal backlash, the health worries etc? Not worth it as much in sports that - well - dont really require you to be the strongest or having the most stamina to win, and also have a lot of moving parts with so many players on each team etc.

Now, I am also not naïve enough to think that any sport is close to fully clean either... and team sports where pure strength is a bigger advantage? (NFL, water polo, rugby) Yeh, for sure there are higher rates of doping as well still, and in some of these that starts at a younger age too...

but in a sport like cycling (like longer distance running, longer distance swimming and strength based track and field etc)... the advantaged that doping gives relative to chance of winning is significantly more. The risk vs reward is just flipped on its head vs a lot of sports.

90% of winning in a Grand Tour for example, or a marathon, or 1500m swimming? It is having a better V02 Max, having better lactate threshold, having better hemocrit levels.

I don't necessarily think any sport is "cleaner," but the over-the-top thermonuclear doping with veterinary medications is long gone except for the desperate. I think we're seeing a lot of sophisticated PED regimes that are undetectable except in the event of a real screw-up.

I'd bet there is a ton of doping in football (soccer). The contracts are so big that there's plenty of money to fund individual programs; the seasons are getting longer and the pressure to stay "match fit" is higher and higher. Any edge that will keep a player in the game longer is a huge benefit. Same with tennis.

To the subject of this thread: one thing that's interesting about Pog is that he can do different disciplines without taking away from others; i.e. winning Flanders but still dominating in the high mountains. That is an amazing natural adaptation ability, whatever else he may be doing.

 

[Extinction]

I don't necessarily think any sport is "cleaner," but the over-the-top thermonuclear doping with veterinary medications is long gone except for the desperate. I think we're seeing a lot of sophisticated PED regimes that are undetectable except in the event of a real screw-up.

I'd bet there is a ton of doping in football (soccer). The contracts are so big that there's plenty of money to fund individual programs; the seasons are getting longer and the pressure to stay "match fit" is higher and higher. Any edge that will keep a player in the game longer is a huge benefit. Same with tennis.

To the subject of this thread: one thing that's interesting about Pog is that he can do different disciplines without taking away from others; i.e. winning Flanders but still dominating in the high mountains. That is an amazing natural adaptation ability, whatever else he may be doing.

Well, when Gianetti is in control, even miracles are possible. They have found the magic formula, top condition from March to October. The others are just weaklings.

 

[Penninepeddler]

I don't necessarily think any sport is "cleaner," but the over-the-top thermonuclear doping with veterinary medications is long gone except for the desperate. I think we're seeing a lot of sophisticated PED regimes that are undetectable except in the event of a real screw-up.

I'd bet there is a ton of doping in football (soccer). The contracts are so big that there's plenty of money to fund individual programs; the seasons are getting longer and the pressure to stay "match fit" is higher and higher. Any edge that will keep a player in the game longer is a huge benefit. Same with tennis.

To the subject of this thread: one thing that's interesting about Pog is that he can do different disciplines without taking away from others; i.e. winning Flanders but still dominating in the high mountains. That is an amazing natural adaptation ability, whatever else he may be doing.

It does depend what you mean by "clean" for sure. Having played sport to a decent level and having been on an Olympic programme briefly... people for sure looked for an edge with legal supplements and, well, a lot more people are somehow asthmatic in the sporting world lmfao... for example. TUE's and equivalents across sport are commonplace that is for sure.

But being early 30s right now, and being around guys who went to the Olympics through my teen years, and having been one of those people who had to give my whereabouts to drug testers for a couple of years?

Well, vs the stories that the guys who were 10-20 years older than us it seemed far less accepted and far less widespread in say 2010 than 1995. Though there were still jokes about some high-level guys in the sport who everyone "knew" were dopers. Heck, one of the best players in the sport in the 2000s was nicknamed "the pharmacy" by some of the guys on our national team.