Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Cookster15]

Did you see Vingegaard doing career high numbers and getting dropped like a brick?

Alps is due to fading. But VLAB were hella confident for Plateau de Beille and they were absolutely mindblown.

Meawhile fugging Pollit is dropping GC riders on the biggest climb of the race while working the valleys before

I recall claims here last year after the Combloux TT that Pog rode a great TT. Yet he still conceded 1.5 minutes in just 22Km and 32 minutes (for a TT that was being dropped like a brick). Some even claimed Vingo’s performance that day was the greatest ever TT. Not bad for 58Kg. That day did not get the adverse attention it deserved.

 

[Mac9]

Non Americans don’t have much potential to transcend the sport, because despite the sacking that American media has taken the last 20 years, it is still the most powerful shaper of the cultural zeitgeist. It's a big reason Lance transcended cycling and no one has done it since.

Sorry for the American exceptionalism, but Pogi will never be as popular with non cycling fans. He's not Tiger Woods, he's not Lance. Federer and Nadal never broke through either, despite their dominance.

UAE has an American on the squad (MacNulty), the most talented American since Lemond, but he's got no chance either. Just not good looking enough, no charisma. He lost to Sean Quinn in the US championships. No star power.

This isn't the case from a UK perspective. No question Armstrong was probably the only cyclist most people on the street could name up until around 2011, but after that and the whole Team Sky era, Bradley Wiggins was probably one of the most famous faces in the UK and transcended the sport. Nowadays, if you asked a person on the street to name a cyclist they would almost certainly name Wiggins, maybe Cavendish too.

Obviously this is speaking about the UK so I'm not suggesting Wiggins was this famous elsewhere, but here he certainly surpassed peak (and trough) Armstrong in terms of transcending the sport by a long, long way.

 

[fbjim]

ok let's be fair the Combloux TT got a ton of attention, between the result, Vingegaard's quote saying he was putting out such good numbers he thought his powermeter was broken, and Richard Plugge immediately trying to distract everyone by insulting French teams for no reason

 

[Red Rick]

I recall claims here last year after the Combloux TT that Pog rode a great TT. Yet he still conceded 1.5 minutes in just 22Km and 32 minutes (for a TT that was being dropped like a brick). Some even claimed Vingo’s performance that day was the greatest ever TT. Not bad for 58Kg. That day did not get the adverse attention it deserved.

It got every bit of adverse attention and the narrative that Pog by his own expectation did a great ITT is just compleltely lolworthy

 

[meat puppet]

Heavy is the head that carries the GOAT.

Vinge would have deserved more mainstream success with his feel good hit of the summer of course, but I think he got quite a bit of flak around here.

 

[fbjim]

Landa's improvements post covid are probably similar to the mutants, even though age wise he should be in decline.

 

[Stablo]

It's ironic that as far as I'm concerned the biggest leaps might even be those farther behind Tadej and Jonas in GC. Place 3, 4 and 5 all have made astounding improvements this year. Remco, Almeida, Landa. Astounding improvement. (Last year it was Yates.)

Rogla and Hindley going backwards in comparison.

Why is Remco there? His just on the level he should be. Im not saying his clean, but his performances are in line with his level. Vuelta 2022 was convincing, only a bit of weakness after the crash, imho he would also have won last years Giro without Covid. So what is so weird on him being freaking 7 minutes behind Poggie? 😅 He is/was also considered talentwise to be on a higher level than this Poggie-monste that is now destroying him.

P.S. this annoys me actually so much, that I kind of wish that Remco would get on to the same program/juice as Poggie(&Jonas) are on, so we would at least get a threeway battle!

 

[SorelyBoy]

People keep mentioning Team sky and Froome etc. What they did, that era, was nothing like what was happening today. The so called Sky Train kept the mountain stages under control by putting in a pace that made it difficult for anyone to accelerate away from, if only because to do so quickly put the attacking rider into the red (remember that concept?). Attacks were usually slow motion affairs, eking out tens of seconds at most per stage. Compare and contrast to Pogacar yesterday. He attacks and then he just doesn’t slow up, it’s not normal. Even the margins of GC victory across three weeks were relatively small for the likes of Froome ( 2013 4 mins, 2015 1.12, 2016 4 mins, 2017 54 secs.). If one was to drop Pogacar and his team into that era, they’d totally crush Froome and co. Sky may have been pushing the interpretation of the rules to the limit, but UAE are just taking the proverbial. Nils Pollitt ffs. Adam Yates, never as good as his *twin brother* Simon, but now miles better than him, a guy who up until he joined UAE was never that great when he was with Sky, and now one of the world’s greatest superdomestiques. Give me a break.

 

[Stablo]

Wrong when it is UAE and Pog.

No problem when it is Vinge/Visma.

Got it.

You really have to be dishonest/fanboy to not see the difference in Poggies dominance all freaking year long and Vinges/Vismas 2022&2023! Im not a Vinge or Visma fan, but Poggies 2024 season is the batsh*t craziest stuff I have ever seen in cycling. Nothing actually comes even close.

And NO like you keep insisting Teddy is not the goat or the greatest talent in the sport. Absolutely nothing indicated to that direction before he joined UAE&Gianettis program and the mutation started leading up to 2020 PDBF. He was just a good young talent, nothing out of the ordinary.

 

[gregrowlerson]

I recall claims here last year after the Combloux TT that Pog rode a great TT. Yet he still conceded 1.5 minutes in just 22Km and 32 minutes (for a TT that was being dropped like a brick). Some even claimed Vingo’s performance that day was the greatest ever TT. Not bad for 58Kg. That day did not get the adverse attention it deserved.

It got plenty of attention on here (perhaps not within the wider cycling community). The clinic went crazy!

I still think the performance there or at least outcome was more shocking than PDB. Because Jonas and Tadej had traded equal jabs (no pun intended) in week 2 and it was impossible to split them, and then suddenly in a medium length time trial there was just an insane time gap. Whereas Pogacar going from a 40 second win on a MTF to a 70 second win on a MTF is nothing particularly out of the ordinary....until you look at the numbers....sheesh!

 

[fbjim]

2023 had some obvious-in-retrospect trouble signs for Pogacar leading up to Combloux, after Cambasque his attacks were less and less effective and was unable to drop Vingegaard by Le Bettex.

obviously you could say similar things about vingegaard this race, just in the opposite direction where he declined as the race went onwards

 

[Rackham]

I'm surprised to say this, but I'm with Rackham here.

There's two ways I could take this... but regardless, you're now my favorite poster.

But seriously, I simply reject the kneejerkism & recency bias when it comes to clinical matters. If Pog isn't in this TdF, then Vingegaard absolutely destroys the Plateau de Beille last Sunday after being in the ICU in April.

Whoop-de-doo, what an example of clean riding eh. But his fans will somehow claim he had a VO2 max of 97 when he was a teenager or something & his progress is 'normal'.

It's funny how selective the definition of normalcy is in cycling when it's the fans who decide who is normal & who isn't.

Why is Remco there? His just on the level he should be. Im not saying his clean, but his performances are in line with his level. Vuelta 2022 was convincing, only a bit of weakness after the crash, imho he would also have won last years Giro without Covid. So what is so weird on him being freaking 7 minutes behind Poggie? 😅 He is/was also considered talentwise to be on a higher level than this Poggie-monste that is now destroying him.

P.S. this annoys me actually so much, that I kind of wish that Remco would get on to the same program/juice as Poggie(&Jonas) are on, so we would at least get a threeway battle!

What makes you so sure he isn't on the same program? He has all the hallmarks, like weight loss & power over 3 weeks, along with record watts. In my view we've seen a "3 way battle" in this TdF 2024 the same way the 2001 Tour de France was a 3 way battle between Lance, Ullrich & Beloki.

Aka just because you get beat, it doesn't mean you're clean or 'cleaner'. I feel like this should be very obvious after all these decades but here we are.

 

[SorelyBoy]

It’s all kicking off:

Pogacar rayé du palmarès du Tour ?

La domination de Tadej Pogacar sur le Tour de France passe mal aux Pays-Bas où certains commentateurs accusent ouvertement le Slovène de dopage.

www.sports.fr

 

[fbjim]

Aka just because you get beat, it doesn't mean you're clean or 'cleaner'. I feel like this should be very obvious after all these decades but here we are.

this is going to sound like a defense of Pogacar and I promise it's not, but one of the ground rules of doping is that a good ride, by itself, isn't proof of doping, and a bad ride isn't proof of being clean.

 

[Rackham]

It’s all kicking off:

Pogacar rayé du palmarès du Tour ?

La domination de Tadej Pogacar sur le Tour de France passe mal aux Pays-Bas où certains commentateurs accusent ouvertement le Slovène de dopage.

www.sports.fr

Funny though in the same article there's Thijs Zonneveld (a journalist who for all intents & purposes seems quite close to Visma) rejecting the doping accusations against Pog.

These teams are feeding at same trough & the omerta is real. Visma for example didn't want people looking too deeply into what happened on Combloux, did they? The whole FDJ beergate was Plugge's deflection. And it worked.

 

[fbjim]

conspiracy: UAE themselves started spreading the inane "is pogacar greedily winning too many stages??????" media discourse as a distraction a la FDJ beergate

 

[Cookster15]

It got plenty of attention on here (perhaps not within the wider cycling community). The clinic went crazy!

I still think the performance there or at least outcome was more shocking than PDB. Because Jonas and Tadej had traded equal jabs (no pun intended) in week 2 and it was impossible to split them, and then suddenly in a medium length time trial there was just an insane time gap. Whereas Pogacar going from a 40 second win on a MTF to a 70 second win on a MTF is nothing particularly out of the ordinary....until you look at the numbers....sheesh!

I guess I was referring to all the media. It didn’t get what it deserved. And as you have pointed out Pog’s PdB was less absurd than Combloux ‘23.

I don't mind admitting Pog isn’t clean. But don’t anyone here try to convince us Vingegaard is any more virtuous.

And then we have Vingegaard’s miraculous rapid recovery from severe injuries and extended hospitalisation just 3 months ago. If there is a valid precedent I don’t know of it. And to be clear I think Vinge is a decent guy.

 

[gregrowlerson]

There's two ways I could take this... but regardless, you're now my favorite poster.

But seriously, I simply reject the kneejerkism & recency bias when it comes to clinical matters. If Pog isn't in this TdF, then Vingegaard absolutely destroys the Plateau de Beille last Sunday after being in the ICU in April.

Whoop-de-doo, what an example of clean riding eh. But his fans will somehow claim he had a VO2 max of 97 when he was a teenager or something & his progress is 'normal'.

It's funny how selective the definition of normalcy is in cycling when it's the fans who decide who is normal & who isn't.



What makes you so sure he isn't on the same program? He has all the hallmarks, like weight loss & power over 3 weeks, along with record watts. In my view we've seen a "3 way battle" in this TdF 2024 the same way the 2001 Tour de France was a 3 way battle between Lance, Ullrich & Beloki.

Aka just because you get beat, it doesn't mean you're clean or 'cleaner'. I feel like this should be very obvious after all these decades but here we are.

Exactly. Just as if Pogacar destroys the peloton after hurting his wrist in the stage 16 ITT if Vingegaard wasn't there.

Stringingly similar. I agree with Red Rick a little that Pogacar wasn't quite at his best on that stage (whereas PDB is the best Vingegaard we've ever seen, just going off the numbers), which is backed up a little by his stage 17 collapse. But that arguably makes it even more incredible, I mean that he was off his best and still way ahead of the rest.

I do hope to see both riders focus 100% on the Tour next year now, and to suffer no injuries/illness. As long as you can turn a bit of a blind eye and watch for entertainment, it can be the best Tour ever imo.

 

[gregrowlerson]

Red Rick pretends never to be happy, but he'll be overjoyed during the 2025 Tour.....it is Jonas and Tadej's 5th set.

Sure, there isn't really an Andy Murray for him competing, but Geraint Thomas will be retired by then, so that's just as good.

 

[fbjim]

at some point it does get subjective about what doping ride is more absurd than what. like what was more absurd, Indurain at Luxembourg, or Indurain at La Plange? does it make too much sense to rank them?

 

[fbjim]

Red Rick pretends never to be happy, but he'll be overjoyed during the 2025 Tour.....it is Jonas and Tadej's 5th set.

Sure, there isn't really an Andy Murray for him competing, but Geraint Thomas will be retired by then, so that's just as good.

who knows, maybe Ineos gets their program together and gets their head out of their behinds and instead of riding for GC, Pidcock is dropping Pogacar and Vingegaard while setting pace for Tarling or whoever the hell they find

 

[Froome]

To be fair, you did say a miracle was going to happen this Tour.

It happened, even if i was also wrong in some takes.

 

[ashhutch1997]

I see People on here saying Jonas Vingegaard's ITT last year was more outrageous, but that's not the point. Vingegaard was outrageous for one race last year and still showed signs of weakness in Tour.
Compare that to Pogacar this year, he's dominated all season, won the Giro and now is dominating the Tour, he's not even had ONE bad day. He doesn't even look tired where's the other riders all f*cked.
I was a massive Pog fan boy (Look at my profile pic), and I went mad on here last year when Vingegaard did that ITT, but this year Pogacar has been so outrageous it's actually laughable.

 

[gregrowlerson]

"You're dead. I'm alive."

 

[Cookster15]

You really have to be dishonest/fanboy to not see the difference in Poggies dominance all freaking year long and Vinges/Vismas 2022&2023! Im not a Vinge or Visma fan, but Poggies 2024 season is the batsh*t craziest stuff I have ever seen in cycling. Nothing actually comes even close.

And NO like you keep insisting Teddy is not the goat or the greatest talent in the sport. Absolutely nothing indicated to that direction before he joined UAE&Gianettis program and the mutation started leading up to 2020 PDBF. He was just a good young talent, nothing out of the ordinary.

The irony of your comment is noteworthy. Perhaps that’s because Pog is simply a better all rounded talent - doping or not. Your last sentence is not what any quick research reveals. When Pog joined UAE he was 19 years old and still growing. His palmares at a very young age shamed the two year older Vingegaard who was a nobody before he momentarily dropped Pog on Ventoux before losing that Tour by over 5 minutes.

Amazing how lucky Visma were to find him to slot in after Roglic crashed out in 2021. A super responding jackpot to help set the record straight after Pog stole the 2020 TdF right out of their expectant grasp.