Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Rackham]

Pog can do what he's doing because his 'victims' aren't really victims in the literal sense of the word, i.e. they're doing the same themselves, whether it's in following a similar program or merely the same 'philosophical' approach to bike racing. It's a circular argument but at the end of the day there's definitely a form of cyclisme à deux vitesses in which thermonuclear wealthy top teams battle it out for the top prizes & everyone else gets scraps, with the caveat being those who're feeding on the scraps are juicing it themselves at their own lower level. This was the case 20 years ago & I have no reason to believe anything is different now.

For example I'd be very, very surprised if Marc Madiot has a totally strict clean regimen in his MPCC team considering his own past in the sport. Can a leopard really change its spots or is he just full of sh*t whilst pleading poverty all the time? Ditto Decathlon who were on fire in the spring & have almost inexplicably cr*pped the bed in this Tour with subpar performances across the board. I doubt they're 'clean'. They've simply had problems which no amount of program can overcome.

Then there's the guys who're also really good at it (like Alpecin) & go slightly under the radar because they're targeting different races. Was Mathieu van der Poel's demolition of Flanders & Roubaix normal? I say L O L to that one.

But sure, Lance knows what's happening. Bruyneel knows. The doped ex pros commentating on TV know as well. In that respect they all deserve to get Poglified because it's the inevitable finality of dope culture: it starts with everyone sharing a piece of the pie laughing as they get rich & then some guys (or just one) gets super good at it & wins too much for the liking of others.

There's some quote from Gordon Gekko about "greed is good" which the peloton seems to follow religiously when they're Gordon Gekko (aka winning) but as soon as they're losing, it's waa waa throw the toys out of the pram this sucks. Merijn Zeeman's comments in the press this morning (complaining about Pog beating Jorgenson) were an example of that. Lance moaning on his podcast is another.

 

[AnotherArmChair]

I do not adhere to the view that they are all doping . I know for a fact that they are not

But they do all benefit from not talking about it or challenging it as it brings adverse publicity to pro cycling and the intimidation of riders who do bring it to the fore still exists in the peloton

I am friends with some ex pros who were not dopers but had numerous discussions about who was.... but there was no stomach for riders or teams to challenge it so all it was was talk

And of course its a moving feast ...some PEDs are just new and not yet understood and banned ....Here is where if you have the funds you can get ahead of the rest and what I think is happening with Pogacar

 

[Blobs]

for all the bad the UCI has and has not done, they have done a reasonable job at keeping the sport from becoming a fight between bike manufacturers. absolutely nobody on earth thinks Pogacar won because he has a Colnago instead of a Cervelo, except maybe deranged Italiophiles.

like have you seen the kind of crap UCI-illegal tri-bikes look like now

I don't even know anymore. After seeing Pogacar effortlessly pushing the best watts ever, and never fatiguing, my confidence that there aren't motors being used, has taken a serious hit.

 

[Mayomaniac]

Anyway as a deranged italiophile myself imagine society if Fabio Aru had gotten the pogi-gear

Aru went there for political protection, because the French press was already writing hit pieces about him in 2017.
Sadly his engine was already friend and it took them 2 years to get going (not to mention that Aru insisted on doing things his way with his entourage). By the end he was so finished that even working with San Millan couldn't save his career. His recovery was just gone, he could no longer handle consecutive mountain stages, yet insisted on riding for the gc.

 

[DrSahl]

Even mainstream medie here is pushing the stories about Pog not being clean now.. its insane since they have been vice versa all they can and the commentators on the tour have also started to make suggestions now.. this is pretty uncommon for them to start that

With Riis, Armstrong, etc.. they defended them to the very last. Them turning on Pog already showcase just how much of a tragic affair this tour have been and with Pog and Vingegaard as well, albeit they still protect him ofc..

Another fun note.
Rasmussen predicts Pog to win the next 5 years in a row.

 

[Mex_17]

Aside from the over the top doping, Pog also strikes me as an egomaniac. He's not just content winning everything, he has to win it by ridiculous margins. Remember when JV won the two TdFs, both times Pog made a "joking" attack on him in the final stage, like he couldn't stand to be out of the spotlight for even one moment. No one else ever does that.

With the yellow jersey long since clinched, he could have easily ridden on the wheel near the front of these last mountain stages, then taken off in the last 100m to win them all. But no, he has to attack and win them all from way far out, going solo.

Unlike Lance, Pog puts on a smily goofy persona with the media, and that may save him from ever being villified to the degree that Armstrong was/is. But basically, they are the same person.

 

[SorelyBoy]

Even mainstream medie here is pushing the stories about Pog not being clean now.. its insane since they have been vice versa all they can and the commentators on the tour have also started to make suggestions now.. this is pretty uncommon for them to start that

With Riis, Armstrong, etc.. they defended them to the very last. Them turning on Pog already showcase just how much of a tragic affair this tour have been and with Pog and Vingegaard as well, albeit they still protect him ofc..

Another fun note.
Rasmussen predicts Pog to win the next 5 years in a row.

The media can only ignore the elephant in the room for so long before some of them start to get queasy in the face of an ever growing body of evidence (the laughable performance levels on a daily basis). Once one pebble gets dislodged, however tiny, the avalanche eventually gathers speed and mass as others start to chase ‘the story’ even if only not to be caught looking like a fool when the sh*t eventually hits the fan. And most journos are aware of the history of a sport that has regularly had systemic issues with doping. While they don’t want to p*ss in the soup, there comes a point when the soup is too polluted to sup from and it needs cleansed. And let’s be honest, when the media smell a story, their hunting instinct tends to kick in. Pogacar might find that golden boy image is torn to pieces in remarkably quick time and the next thing thrown at him won’t be crisps.

 

[Monoxidator]

The media can only ignore the elephant in the room for so long before some of them start to get queasy in the face of an ever growing body of evidence (the laughable performance levels on a daily basis). Once one pebble gets dislodged, however tiny, the avalanche eventually gathers speed and mass as others start to chase ‘the story’ even if only not to be caught looking like a fool when the sh*t eventually hits the fan. And most journos are aware of the history of a sport that has regularly had systemic issues with doping. While they don’t want to p*ss in the soup, there comes a point when the soup is too polluted to sup from and it needs cleansed. And let’s be honest, when the media smell a story, their hunting instinct tends to kick in. Pogacar might find that golden boy image is torn to pieces in remarkably quick time and the next thing thrown at him won’t be crisps.

We can only hope. I think athletes prefer not to cheat if they think their competition isn’t cheating. But of course once one person is known to be cheating it becomes an arms race

 

[SorelyBoy]

Aside from the over the top doping, Pog also strikes me as an egomaniac. He's not just content winning everything, he has to win it by ridiculous margins. Remember when JV won the two TdFs, both times Pog made a "joking" attack on him in the final stage, like he couldn't stand to be out of the spotlight for even one moment. No one else ever does that.

With the yellow jersey long since clinched, he could have easily ridden on the wheel near the front of these last mountain stages, then taken off in the last 100m to win them all. But no, he has to attack and win them all from way far out, going solo.

Unlike Lance, Pog puts on a smily goofy persona with the media, and that may save him from ever being villified to the degree that Armstrong was/is. But basically, they are the same person.

Which is what Armstrong was referring to yesterday, pretty much saying that his behaviour reminded Armstrong of himself and that it can draw unwanted attention or build up resentment. Human nature never changes. If there is something going on, then the more people you’ve stepped on in the way up, the more will be waiting the opportunity to beat you on the way down.

 

[repoman]

I recall claims here last year after the Combloux TT that Pog rode a great TT. Yet he still conceded 1.5 minutes in just 22Km and 32 minutes (for a TT that was being dropped like a brick). Some even claimed Vingo’s performance that day was the greatest ever TT. Not bad for 58Kg. That day did not get the adverse attention it deserved.

Hmmm.....how on earth could a 58kg rider have a significant advantage on this stage over a guy thats 6kg heavier? I can't figure it out!


View: https://i.imgur.com/YKqyPcm.png

https://imgur.com/YKqyPcm

Add in it's generally accepted Pog lost about 20 seconds due to taking crummy lines and Vingegaard took more risks you are down to a roughly 1 minute gap over a 30 minute TT.
Add in Pogicar did a bike change and the Colnago TT bike that year was a heavier bike than the Cervelo, and Vingegaard having superior TT position, and the fact that Pogicar completely cracked the following stage indicating he was deep into tour fatigue at this TT, and this performance gap doesn't seem that special. People make too much about this TT.

 

[Monoxidator]

Hmmm.....how on earth could a 58kg rider have a significant advantage on this stage over a guy thats 6kg heavier? I can't figure it out!


View: https://i.imgur.com/YKqyPcm.png

https://imgur.com/YKqyPcm

Add in it's generally accepted Pog lost about 20 seconds due to taking crummy lines and Vingegaard took more risks you are down to a roughly 1 minute gap over a 30 minute TT.
Add in Pogicar did a bike change and the Colnago TT bike that year was a heavier bike than the Cervelo, and Vingegaard having superior TT position, and the fact that Pogicar completely cracked the following stage indicating he was deep into tour fatigue at this TT, and this performance gap doesn't seem that special. People make too much about this TT.

Pog fans talk about the TT and Vinge fans talk about Pog’s entire season this year. But doesn’t matter. The conversation has shifted from the plausibility of being clean to arguing about who’s more doped. Think about that for a second.

 

[fbjim]

yeah and vingegaard had fluffier pillows the night before too, it was the cleanest moment in cycling history other than Bradley Wiggins winning the Tour de France

 

[repoman]

Just saying, there is certainly room for playing Devil's Advocate on that TT, that is simply not possible for Pogicar's 2024 season.

I haven't had a rider I really rooted for since Dan Martin.

 

[fbjim]

Just saying, there is certainly room for playing Devil's Advocate on that TT, that is simply not possible for Pogicar's 2024 season.

you can easily do it. here: the giro route was easy, he was clearly the only real contender in that race, vingegaard wasn't in shape due to a pre-race crash, and roglic crashed out, so obviously he won.

do i think this explains his season? no, but you can make up a devil's advocate reason for *anything*.

 

[Divergence]

Aside from the over the top doping, Pog also strikes me as an egomaniac. He's not just content winning everything, he has to win it by ridiculous margins. Remember when JV won the two TdFs, both times Pog made a "joking" attack on him in the final stage, like he couldn't stand to be out of the spotlight for even one moment. No one else ever does that.

With the yellow jersey long since clinched, he could have easily ridden on the wheel near the front of these last mountain stages, then taken off in the last 100m to win them all. But no, he has to attack and win them all from way far out, going solo.

Unlike Lance, Pog puts on a smily goofy persona with the media, and that may save him from ever being villified to the degree that Armstrong was/is. But basically, they are the same person.

Why shouldn't he? You are the best for only a certain amount of time. Why not make the most out of it? Also, everybody hails Merckx nowadays. He did not gift anything to anybody. I think Tadej should have gone for the polka dot as well today.

 

[El Burro]

Seeing a lot of accusations using doped 1990s riders v Pogacar/Ving/Remco etc…. Obviously the bikes, the tyres, the aero gains, the new methods of training, the fact they take enough caffeine to turn a sloth into an alleycat and the fact they are consuming twice as many carbs obviously has nothing to do with their improvements!

Stupid Pogacar forgot to take the right drugs in 22 or 23 but at least he has better ones than Visma in 24 🤪 Ps those UCI doping control bods are a bit crap at their jobs….the Olympic DCs will do a better job otherwise all athletes are doping…no?

Until a rider gets a positive sample I prefer to consider him/her as a rider who has worked damn hard to extract gains which we should respect rather than cast shade over their efforts!

 

[fbjim]

Pog fans talk about the TT and Vinge fans talk about Pog’s entire season this year. But doesn’t matter. The conversation has shifted from the plausibility of being clean to arguing about who’s more doped. Think about that for a second.

i think it's because a lot of people aren't actually discussing doping, and are instead more interested in having a flamewar between vingegaard and pogacar fanboys

 

[E_F_]

Until a rider gets a positive sample I prefer to consider him/her as a rider who has worked damn hard to extract gains which we should respect rather than cast shade over their efforts!

Yeah I can't imagine how hard Valverde must have worked!

 

[Monoxidator]

Yeah I can't imagine how hard Valverde must have worked!

You still have to put in the work to improve the physiology, the doping just helps you push past human limits.

 

[fbjim]

Yeah I can't imagine how hard Valverde must have worked!

having watched many GC and breakaway groups I don't think I have ever seen Valverde work

 

[ashhutch1997]

Seeing a lot of accusations using doped 1990s riders v Pogacar/Ving/Remco etc…. Obviously the bikes, the tyres, the aero gains, the new methods of training, the fact they take enough caffeine to turn a sloth into an alleycat and the fact they are consuming twice as many carbs obviously has nothing to do with their improvements!

Stupid Pogacar forgot to take the right drugs in 22 or 23 but at least he has better ones than Visma in 24 🤪 Ps those UCI doping control bods are a bit crap at their jobs….the Olympic DCs will do a better job otherwise all athletes are doping…no?

Until a rider gets a positive sample I prefer to consider him/her as a rider who has worked damn hard to extract gains which we should respect rather than cast shade over their efforts!

You sound like me 15 years ago, unfortunately you'll find out the hard way.

 

[E_F_]

You still have to put in the work to improve the physiology, the doping just helps you push past human limits.

having watched many GC and breakaway groups I don't think I have ever seen Valverde work

I was commenting on the notion that there has to be a positive test for the commenter to consider someone doped...

 

[Saint Unix]

Hmmm.....how on earth could a 58kg rider have a significant advantage on this stage over a guy thats 6kg heavier? I can't figure it out!


View: https://i.imgur.com/YKqyPcm.png

https://imgur.com/YKqyPcm

Add in it's generally accepted Pog lost about 20 seconds due to taking crummy lines and Vingegaard took more risks you are down to a roughly 1 minute gap over a 30 minute TT.
Add in Pogicar did a bike change and the Colnago TT bike that year was a heavier bike than the Cervelo, and Vingegaard having superior TT position, and the fact that Pogicar completely cracked the following stage indicating he was deep into tour fatigue at this TT, and this performance gap doesn't seem that special. People make too much about this TT.

All valid points when comparing the gap between Vingegaard and Pogacar, but the reality is there are 150 other guys in the race that got absolutely smoked by Pogacar on that stage. You can add up all the things that Pogacar "did wrong" from a technical or tactical point of view to explain why he finished almost 1'40" down on Vingegaard, and he may well have been within 10 seconds of the win if he'd done everything right and was in shape, but that completely ignores the fact that the gap between Vingegaard and the rest of the field was almost three minutes. Take away Vingegaard and Pogacar and the results look like a normal TT with relatively minor gaps. Put Pogacar's time in there and he's still a massive anomaly on his own despite all his errors. And then Vingegaard is almost 100 seconds faster than him.

Those two are on a completely different level of thermonuclear compared to everyone else in the sport at the moment. That TT deserved all the scrutiny it got. But compared to what Tadej has done this season and how unaffected he seems after his literally superhuman efforts... Saying that it pales in comparison is a massive understatement. At least Vingegaard had the decency to slump over the handlebars in exhaustion after crossing the line on the TT.

 

[Raest]

Seeing a lot of accusations using doped 1990s riders v Pogacar/Ving/Remco etc…. Obviously the bikes, the tyres, the aero gains, the new methods of training, the fact they take enough caffeine to turn a sloth into an alleycat and the fact they are consuming twice as many carbs obviously has nothing to do with their improvements!

Stupid Pogacar forgot to take the right drugs in 22 or 23 but at least he has better ones than Visma in 24 🤪 Ps those UCI doping control bods are a bit crap at their jobs….the Olympic DCs will do a better job otherwise all athletes are doping…no?

Stupid Pogacar forgot to take his ketones until his new ueber coach reminded him.
Those are exactly, exactly, the excuses the Armstrong sycophants were coming up with 20 years ago.
‘It’s the fiber weave in the Madone”, ‘his diet”, ‘the wind tunnel time”, ‘his altitude training” and so on.
They are beating Armstrong’s ftp numbers at the end of stage in the last week of the Tdf. That’s not possible

 

[Gargamel35]

Aside from the over the top doping, Pog also strikes me as an egomaniac. He's not just content winning everything, he has to win it by ridiculous margins. Remember when JV won the two TdFs, both times Pog made a "joking" attack on him in the final stage, like he couldn't stand to be out of the spotlight for even one moment. No one else ever does that.

With the yellow jersey long since clinched, he could have easily ridden on the wheel near the front of these last mountain stages, then taken off in the last 100m to win them all. But no, he has to attack and win them all from way far out, going solo.

Unlike Lance, Pog puts on a smily goofy persona with the media, and that may save him from ever being villified to the degree that Armstrong was/is. But basically, they are the same person.

He basically started his winning career by crushing (his own) national hero when the whole country was ready to celebrate the ultimate triumph of their working class hero.
If that doesn't tell you, he's ready to do it all for success, then nothing will.