Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[E_F_]

I am not talking about cycling but many different sports, football,basketball,american football etc

That just makes you even more wrong.

 

[Cookster15]

Come on. He came in second at the Itzulia that year. Ahead of Pogacar. "Suddenly" he was able to do drop Pogacar after doing it a couple of months earlier... Which was also very "sudden" seeing as he won ahead of Pogacar a few months earlier on Jebel Jais. Which actually was somewhat sudden.

UAE Tour in February is a training race for these guys. What did Vingegaard do in 2020 - 46th in the Vuelta? 105th in the stage 13 TT? You are not being objective. Please do not resurrect the fisherman excuse.

As I keep repeating, this is very obvious arms race. Giannetti was spanked in 2022 and 2023. So he's upped the ante in 2024. But what Vingegaard achieved despite his massive April crash, injuries and hospitalization is frankly every bit as suspect than even Pogacar's dominance.

 

[snipeheem]

That just makes you even more wrong.

I dont know how to explain it to you . After follow sports for almost 20 years i know the athlete prime starts from 26 to 30 , cycling is No different than that , that was my point. I just told it wrong the post before

 

[E_F_]

UAE Tour in February is a training race for these guys. What did Vingegaard do in 2020 - 46th in the Vuelta?

I did say it was somewhat sudden, didn't I?

 

[Froome]

Do you know who is also faster than the 90s guys? The rider in your profile picture. And he achieved that this year after spending two weeks in the hospital. He also had a massive improvement between 2020 and 2021...

What Vingegaard has to do with this? This is the thread of Pogacar.

Vingegaard didn't won anything since March, but yeah, let's talk about him, instead of talk about the biggest cheater of all time, after what he did this year. You are trying to divert attention from him, when you talk about Vingegaard.

 

[snipeheem]

What Vingegaard has to do with this? This the thread of Pogacar.

Vingegaard didn't won anything since March, but yeah, let's talk about him, instead of talk about the biggest cheater of all time, after what he did this year. You are trying to divert attention from him, when you talk about Vingegaard.

For you biggest cheater of all time is Pogacar but for some people here is Jonas. Thats all

 

[topcat]

Ten years ago, at the tender age of 45, I experienced the now mythical 10% bump in performance levels-running, swimming and teaching faster than ever before. I put it down to entering my prime. However, it turned out that I have hemachromotosis which induced iron overload. I nearly died a while after that. I had to get a pint of blood out every month for a year. I'm all good now, free to pester y'all. Thinking of taking a blood bag tomorrow so I can rage at the tv.

 

[Extinction]

This is how it works, talent at the top being more or less equal: who responds best now in an on-going arms race? At least the French are starting to ask questions, God bless them.

 

[Cookster15]

What Vingegaard has to do with this? This the thread of Pogacar.

Vingegaard didn't won anything since March, but yeah, let's talk about him, instead of talk about the biggest cheater of all time, after what he did this year. You are trying to divert attention from him, when you talk about Vingegaard.

You can't separate discussion of these two - the arms race, I thought you knew this? Please remember Vingegaard came 2nd to your biggest cheater of all time after the April cash and massive injuries including a punctured lung. And until half way up PdB Visma seemed to think they had Pogacar's measure.

 

[E_F_]

I dont know how to explain it to you . After follow sports for almost 20 years i know the athlete prime starts from 26 to 30 , cycling is No different than that , that was my point. I just told it wrong the post before

I thought I'd take a look at the various running World Records and at what age they were set:
100m: 22
200m: 22
400m: 24
800m: 23
1000m: 20
Mile: 24
2000m: 22
3000m: 23
5000m: 24
Half marathon: 21
Marathon: 23

It would appear that actually the early twenties are the prime.

 

[hrotha]

You can't separate discussion of these two - the arms race, I thought you knew this? Please remember Vingegaard came 2nd to your biggest cheater of all time after the April cash and massive injuries including a punctured lung. And until half way up PdB Visma seemed to think they had Pogacar's measure.

This is such a disingenuous post, like people here are discussing the intricacies of human performance, the arms race, and the communicating vessels of cycling's doping industry, rather than flailing their arms around while they shout "oh yeah? well your guy is worse" "no he's not!" "is too!" at the top of their lungs

 

[Cookster15]

This is such a disingenuous post, like people here are discussing the intricacies of human performance, the arms race, and the communicating vessels of cycling's doping industry, rather than flailing their arms around while they shout "oh yeah? well your guy is worse" "no he's not!" "is too!" at the top of their lungs

Well, I would describe your post as disingenuous. Did you not notice Froome's post - biggest cheater of all time? Anyone who comes here will know that poster is a huge Vingo fan.

I am merely pointing the inability of posters here to 1) admit they follow the other guy and 2) admit their other guy is just as dirty. Why is that disingenuous? Its a fact. And I 100% stand by the statement you can't discuss Pogacar without also bringing in Vingegaard whose recovery from Itzulia was ludicrous.

 

[snipeheem]

I thought I'd take a look at the various running World Records and at what age they were set:
100m: 22
200m: 22
400m: 24
800m: 23
1000m: 20
Mile: 24
2000m: 22
3000m: 23
5000m: 24
Half marathon: 21
Marathon: 23

It would appear that actually the early twenties are the prime.

Now look at football , basketball , tennis , american football , hockey players and tell me at what age they start prime years

 

[E_F_]

Now look at football , basketball , tennis , american football , hockey players and tell me at what age they start prime years

Now look at various very complicated skill-heavy sports and tell me where cycling of all things falls.

 

[snipeheem]

Now look at various very complicated skill-heavy sports and tell me where cycling of all things falls.

Ok bro u believe in one thing i believe in other, thats all.

 

[E_F_]

Ok bro u believe in one thing i believe in other, thats all.

I believe that cycling is like running, you believe it's like tennis. But you don't think this is something which could be looked into...

 

[Stablo]

You can't separate discussion of these two - the arms race, I thought you knew this? Please remember Vingegaard came 2nd to your biggest cheater of all time after the April cash and massive injuries including a punctured lung. And until half way up PdB Visma seemed to think they had Pogacar's measure.

Still somehow missing the point. Yes there is an arms race on and Jonas was good at the Tour, especially if you think about the big accident in the spring and how he recovered. Still nothing that Jonas has ever done, comes even close to the season Poggie is currently having. Period. And this still is Dopacars thread.
It's almost like comparing Lance to Ullrich, they where both doping, but the other one had taken the program on an completely different level, was killing the competition and the excitment. Still even Lance basically only did it on the Tour. Now it's an all year travesty, without a single bad day and constantly in a more dominant style that we have ever seen in a modern pro peloton. The freshness after his monster performances and the effortless way he just rides others off his wheel, makes me sure his on some next level program or there's some sort of motor assistance.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

people here are discussing the intricacies of human performance, the arms race, and the communicating vessels of cycling's doping industry, rather than flailing their arms around while they shout "oh yeah? well your guy is worse" "no he's not!" "is too!" at the top of their lungs

AS MODERATOR
Thankfully, there is some of what you describe first. There is also a desperate amount of the other, meaning that attempts at sensible discussion are in danger of being drowned out.

A reminder of a selection from forum rules, stickied at the top of this section:

Please do...

• Keep criticism constructive! If you disagree with an opinion, explain why, but never attack the person.
• Search the site and/or forum before posting. Someone else may have already answered your question or discussed the topic. Checking for duplicates can help save you time.

Please don't...

• Be rude or impolite. Civility is compulsory here, and remember that behind each user is a real person. Personal attacks are not allowed against other members, staff, or moderators.
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Specific Rules

The following activity is expressly disallowed within our community:

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And, in full, the clinic specific supplement to the rules

Amendment to Forum Rules for Discussions in The Clinic

• Discussion or speculation of professional cyclist use of performance enhancers or banned substances should include supporting evidence.
• Users are required to provide evidence when challenged, as well as engaging with arguments counter to the assertion with substantive facts and references.
• Remember that the subject of speculation and discussion on this matter are human beings deserving of respect and dignity.
• We ask that you keep discourse within expectations of these guidelines to ensure a healthy community for this topic.

Thank you for your understanding and compliance!

And back to the general rules for this one:

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which I take as do not make accusations against each other here.


I would like to see what Hrotha descries as discussion of "the intricacies of human performance, the arms race, and the communicating vessels of cycling's doping industry", I'm sure most would. To enable and declutter that, I shall be taking a no-nonsense application of the rules above in regard to those who, again to quote Hrotha, prefer "flailing their arms around while they shout "oh yeah? well your guy is worse" "no he's not!" "is too!""

If you believe that you could be thought to be in that latter group, consider yourselves warned.

And I'll be copying this into the Vingegaard thread too.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

When you're smoking riders who are smoking the times of EPO riders, you should probably just STFU about domination being a normal thing.

 

[Rob5091]

He's clean! Close the Clinic!
https://cyclinguptodate.com/cycling...about-the-past-about-armstrong-and-these-guys

"There are always people who are jealous and suspicious and there's nothing I can do about it," Pogacar said in a pre-race press conference. "Cycling is a sport where in the past, people were doing everything they could to their bodies, to be better, unknowing what it does to your health, and they were risking their life". ..."A lot of guys that you don't even know, not even the winners, are probably now sick or have some other health problems or mental problems because of what they were doing to their bodies in the past 20 or 30 years. In my honest opinion, my humble opinion. I think cycling suffered a lot from those years. There was no trust and it was up to us the cyclists to regain the trust," the rainbow jersey argues. "But there's nothing we can do. We just race our own race, and we hope that people will start to believe us".

[[content deleted]]

 

[Coffeeplanter]

The front page dared post an article asking if he’s clean. It’s just funny that even when they ask questions they frame it in a way to make the riders look innocent.

PogAICAR yapping about how we need more time to get rid of the reputation set by Armstrong, when he himself is backed by two even dodgier figures. We're being laughed at.

 

[Ricco']

He's clean! Close the Clinic!
https://cyclinguptodate.com/cycling...about-the-past-about-armstrong-and-these-guys

(Just a warning to any journalists thinking of snooping around the team bus - remember the princesses )

I believe in Tadej!

Why risk your health for eternal glory when you can do it with a motor?

 

[Extinction]

PogAICAR yapping about how we need more time to get rid of the reputation set by Armstrong, when he himself is backed by two even dodgier figures. We're being laughed at.

And yet we're the ones asked to back speculation with evidence, when guys like Gianetti and Maxtin are allowed to run the narrative with apparent impunity. These guys were at the helm of Saunier-Duval when Ricco and Piepoli got busted at the Tour and taken to jail and then Cobo at the Vuelta. So why aren't they being asked to provide evidence to demonstrate Pogacar's performances are clean? Instead all we hear about are lactate threasholds and porridge for breakfast. Come on. Performances that have literally destroyed records from the known EPO era, are themselves evidence that something illicit is going on, based on the history of the sport and the powerful effects such drugs have had on past results. Now, but what exactly is going on, you say? Well, if we knew that, there would be no need to investigate the matter further and indeed no reason to have a clinic forum. But we know this is merely ridiculous. The investigative journalists need to do their jobs and start finding answers to unresolved questions like, is there a new drug on the market? If not, then is there a new method to render old substances undetectable by the anti-doping tests? Is there a new undetectable type of motor being used? Is the UCI complicit in covering up a rider/s too big to fail? Guys like Gianetti-Matxin should be pressed hard to give credible, as opposed to incredible, explanations of how they got their marquis rider to performance levels this season that frankly defy reason.

 

[PolkaDot1]

So he says the reason he is not doping is because it is stupid and unhealthy, while completely avoiding the main reason - that it is simply forbiden!

But good that at least we have some questions on the topic, eventhough asked in such sterile way that Pogi can turn it around into the evergreen story of portraying himself the victim of the past.

 

[GuntherL1]

And yet we're the ones asked to back speculation with evidence, when guys like Giannetti and Maxtin are allowed to run the narrative with apparent impunity. These guys were at the helm of Saunier-Duval when Ricco and Piepoli got busted at the Tour and taken to jail. So why aren't they being asked to provide evidence to demonstrate Pogacar's performances are clean? Instead all we hear about are lactate threasholds and porridge for breakfast. Come on. Performances that have literally destroyed records from the known EPO era, are themselves evidence that something illicit is going on, based on the history of the sport and the powerful effects such drugs have had on past results. Now, but what exactly going on, you say? Well, if we knew that, there would be no need to investigate the matter further and indeed no reason to have a clinic forum. But we know this is merely ridiculous. The investigative journalists need to do their jobs and start finding answers to unresolved questions like, is there a new drug on the market? If not, then is there a new method to render old substances undetectable by the anti-doping tests? Is there a new undetectable type of motor being used? Is the UCI complicit in covering up a rider/s too big to fail? Guys like Giannetti-Matxin should be pressed hard to give credibile, as opposed to incredible, explainations of how they got their marquis rider to performance levels this season that frankly defy reason.

Do you remember Cobo? He won the Vuelta in 2011 and lost it to Froome in 2019 because of his irregularities in his biological passport. Team manager...: Mauro Gianetti
These guys are the dirtiest men in cycling and nobody is asking questions.