Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Ilmaestro99]

Dopers are famously never talented.

 

[burning]

He lost all 3 jerseys today, I think he's not doping

 

[SorelyBoy]

Name one rider that wouldn't give you doubts if they won the Tour.

Oh ok. That’s bait. But I’ll bite. Since were restricted to actual contenders I’d say Remco Evenepoel. Generational talent. Ludicrous talent actually which was demonstrated from a very young age. He can climb very well but he’s not thermonuclear - he has a red zone. And he has bad days. He also gets sick. He looks shattered at the end of big race efforts. He has reactions in terms of big efforts in one race having a negative impact in the next. He ultimately shows signs of being human. Pogacar? He rides every race like it’s his first, fresh as a daisy. He fiddles with his bike computer and within ten seconds he’s accelerated from the group and put 200m into them, cruising across the line like he’s delivering the local paper. No red zone on huge up hill climbs. Seated attacks on extremely steep finishes that leave everyone else like they’re standing. He’s a circus act.

 

[kingjr]

Oh ok. That’s bait. But I’ll bite. Since were restricted to actual contenders I’d say Remco Evenepoel. Generational talent. Ludicrous talent actually which was demonstrated from a very young age. He can climb very well but he’s not thermonuclear - he has a red zone. And he has bad days. He also gets sick. He looks shattered at the end of big race efforts. He has reactions in terms of big efforts in one race having a negative impact in the next. He ultimately shows signs of being human. Pogacar? He rides every race like it’s his first, fresh as a daisy. He fiddles with his bike computer and within ten seconds he’s accelerated from the group and put 200m into them, cruising across the line like he’s delivering the local paper. No red zone on huge up hill climbs. Seated attacks on extremely steep finishes that leave everyone else like they’re standing. He’s a circus act.

I see. No further questions, your honour.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

He lost all 3 jerseys today, I think he's not doping

Finally decline, end of tyranny. The peleton can breathe a sigh of relief.

 

[Red Rick]

What if it's gene doping? In the upcoming decades cyclists(and everything else of course) will be decided by who got the money (and dubious morals) to biologically engineer their offspring, who's to say it doesn't already happen atleast on a moderate scale?

If gene therapy were this effective already many cancers and rare diseases would already be curable. They're not.

 

[E_F_]

If Remco suddenly beat both Vingegaard and Pogacar at the Tour, that wouldn't make think he's clean...

 

[SorelyBoy]

If Remco suddenly beat both Vingegaard and Pogacar at the Tour, that wouldn't make think he's clean...

Me too. Which is why he won’t.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

In 10-15 years time, Pogačar and Vingegaard will probably have their own talkshows where they hand out free stuff to people.

 

[Psycat]

If gene therapy were this effective already many cancers and rare diseases would already be curable. They're not.

Could be reasons for that aswell. Suppose the treatments would be very expensive or maybe unknown side effects(Pogacar might grow some extra limbs or whatever, people would still think its "normal" for sure though), companies that don't wan't to have those diseases cured etc but of course that's almost full thinfoil territory.

Also could simply be that genetically modifying one thing, say, endurance is not the same as curing diseases. Or he is just using a motor I suppose.

Could also be greatest endurance talent of all time, on a more traditional doping program, but I will remain skeptical.

 

[BullsFan22]

Aren't you the one coping? With the fact that Pogacar is doped as ***.

I am coping just fine with him kicking a$$ and taking names while this board is losing it 😂🤣😂

 

[ColonelKidneyBeans]

If gene therapy were this effective already many cancers and rare diseases would already be curable. They're not.

They are promising things "in the pipe" on that front (and some are already there saving lives in the "real" world, see e.g. tisagencleucel), but we will have to wait quite a bit because of clinical trials/regulatory constraints (which is a good thing). If someone is willing to cut corners, consequences be damned, i would not be so sure that results could not be achieved right now on the PED front. But this is highly speculative ofc.

 

[Psycat]

I am coping just fine with him kicking a$$ and taking names while this board is losing it 😂🤣😂

But why? It's not like you are the one "kicking ass" or gain anything from him making a mockery out of every other rider, and quite a few of them are presumably on the program and also knows what to eat and which pillow to use mind you.

Weird thing to get some personal pride or joy out of in my opinion so I am genuinely curious as to why you think that it's a good thing.

 

[dr.eve]

If gene therapy were this effective already many cancers and rare diseases would already be curable. They're not.

It's actually more complicated and less complicated at the same time. First of, you wouldnt need gene therapy, but RNA therapy. Sure we often mix them up but gene therapy focusses on altering DNA (e.g. using CRISPR technology) where's RNA therapy focussing on stimulating or inhibiting RNA expression or function (e.g. ASO's and siRNA). In my opinion RNA therapy is much more plausible currently than gene therapy. And to me the most practical version would be use of antisenseoligonucleotides (ASO's). And since you're making the statement about effectiveness of gene therapy and that they are not. Well I can list all the approved Gene and RNA therapies here if you like. It's a very much living field reaching patients for various diseases. If interested look up Parr et al. "Oligo nucleotide Therapeutics in sports? An antidoping perspective". A list of EMA approved therapies are listed and the potential for misuse in sports is discussed.

Basically they state that the access may be limited due to high costs or for lack of approval as a therapeutic, however the black market may be a potential source. They also conclude that with the ongoing research on potential new therapeutics, the availability of oligonucleotide-based or in general gene therapeutic material for misuse by athletes is conceivable. And they state that detection and confirmation procedures need more development.

So here you have it, yes it is possible and yes the detection methods are lacking.

I work for a pharmaceutical company and I can tell you it's amazing how people can get their hands on legit medications via illegal routes. So yeah acquiring RNA therapies, if you have the resources then I do consider it plausible. UAE happens to have plenty of resources for example.

 

[Red Rick]

It's actually more complicated and less complicated at the same time. First of, you wouldnt need gene therapy, but RNA therapy. Sure we often mix them up but gene therapy focusses on altering DNA (e.g. using CRISPR technology) where's RNA therapy focussing on stimulating or inhibiting RNA expression or function (e.g. ASO's and siRNA). In my opinion RNA therapy is much more plausible currently than gene therapy. And to me the most practical version would be use of antisenseoligonucleotides (ASO's). And since you're making the statement about effectiveness of gene therapy and that they are not. Well I can list all the approved Gene and RNA therapies here if you like. It's a very much living field reaching patients for various diseases. If interested look up Parr et al. "Oligo nucleotide Therapeutics in sports? An antidoping perspective". A list of EMA approved therapies are listed and the potential for misuse in sports is discussed.

Basically they state that the access may be limited due to high costs or for lack of approval as a therapeutic, however the black market may be a potential source. They also conclude that with the ongoing research on potential new therapeutics, the availability of oligonucleotide-based or in general gene therapeutic material for misuse by athletes is conceivable. And they state that detection and confirmation procedures need more development.

So here you have it, yes it is possible and yes the detection methods are lacking.

I work for a pharmaceutical company and I can tell you it's amazing how people can get their hands on legit medications via illegal routes. So yeah acquiring RNA therapies, if you have the resources then I do consider it plausible. UAE happens to have plenty of resources for example.

Yeah I knew about the RNA stuff, I have a background in medical science but my knowledge on the stuff isn't all that up to date. But my general understanding is that the much bigger issue is drug delivery is the big issue

I could be wrong ofcourse. It would kinda make sense in that if it were just everyone on mad peptides then the really ridiculous level changes would be more widespread.

 

[YellowSocks]

Let's remember the PFC that almost killed Gianetti wasn't on the market (and never was), and it is said Gianetti was not the only cyclist on it.
Cyclists are incorrigible sorcerer's apprentices.

 

[ColonelKidneyBeans]

It's actually more complicated and less complicated at the same time. First of, you wouldnt need gene therapy, but RNA therapy. Sure we often mix them up but gene therapy focusses on altering DNA (e.g. using CRISPR technology) where's RNA therapy focussing on stimulating or inhibiting RNA expression or function (e.g. ASO's and siRNA). In my opinion RNA therapy is much more plausible currently than gene therapy. And to me the most practical version would be use of antisenseoligonucleotides (ASO's). And since you're making the statement about effectiveness of gene therapy and that they are not. Well I can list all the approved Gene and RNA therapies here if you like. It's a very much living field reaching patients for various diseases. If interested look up Parr et al. "Oligo nucleotide Therapeutics in sports? An antidoping perspective". A list of EMA approved therapies are listed and the potential for misuse in sports is discussed.

Basically they state that the access may be limited due to high costs or for lack of approval as a therapeutic, however the black market may be a potential source. They also conclude that with the ongoing research on potential new therapeutics, the availability of oligonucleotide-based or in general gene therapeutic material for misuse by athletes is conceivable. And they state that detection and confirmation procedures need more development.

So here you have it, yes it is possible and yes the detection methods are lacking.

I work for a pharmaceutical company and I can tell you it's amazing how people can get their hands on legit medications via illegal routes. So yeah acquiring RNA therapies, if you have the resources then I do consider it plausible. UAE happens to have plenty of resources for example.

Yep, siRNA have quite a bit of potential as PED's, first thing that comes to my mind (i don't know if it would be practical or has been attempted already) is that suppressing/muting the expression of EGLN genes could make for a nice blood boosting agent.

 

[Tim Cahill]

Old one about PFC's from back in the day, anyone remember this, Voigt used them to win the Tour of Germany in 2006;

"Vor uns war der CSC-Tisch mit dem Sieger der Deutschlandtour, Jens Voigt. Damals ging das Gerücht um, es gäbe ein neues Wundermittel namens PFC. In meiner Berauschung rief ich dem Deutschen hinüber: 'Gell Jens, das sollte nicht CSC, sondern PFC heißen.'" Das Gelächter am CSC-Tisch hielt sich in Grenzen."

Doping im Jahr 2009 – Seite 8 – Radsportforum.com

radsportforum.com

Translate so may be errors;

"In front of us was the CSC table with the winner of the Germany Tour, Jens Voigt. At the time, there was a rumor going around that there was a new miracle cure called PFC. In my intoxication, I called over to the German: 'Right, Jens, it shouldn't be CSC, it should be PFC.'" The laughter at the CSC table was limited."

 

[Notarobot]

Disgusting comments by this fraud about Visma riders at the finish. He hates Jorgensen and Vingegaard. The guy has no class at all.

 

[burning]

I cannot imagine him being on PFCs, they cannot be this dumb given Gianetti's personal history with it, LOL

 

[the delgados]

Dopers are famously never talented.

Then there hasn't been a single talented rider in Tour de France-winning history.

 

[Cookster15]

Disgusting comments by this fraud about Visma riders at the finish. He hates Jorgensen and Vingegaard. The guy has no class at all.

I don't think Pogacar hates those guys. As for "disgusting", is this what you are referring to?

'Visma tried to do, I don't know what…' - Tadej Pogačar irritated by rival tactics to try to keep him in the Tour de France yellow jersey

UAE Team Emirates-XRG leader happy to lose race lead to friend and racing ally Mathieu van der Poel

www.cyclingnews.com

 

[pelotonIQ]

he's clearly protected superstar as once Lance was... but eventually... miracles can happen

Let's presume that Tadej is protected and compare to Lance. Lance had all these rumours and whispers of doping surrounding him, his rivals and former teammates hinted to him being a doper. None of this is happening to Pogacar.

 

[dr.eve]

Yeah I knew about the RNA stuff, I have a background in medical science but my knowledge on the stuff isn't all that up to date. But my general understanding is that the much bigger issue is drug delivery is the big issue

I could be wrong ofcourse. It would kinda make sense in that if it were just everyone on mad peptides then the really ridiculous level changes would be more widespread.

Fair point, yet thats why RNA therapeutics are of more practical use. ASO's are not a definate change as compared to gene therapy, if you stop the therapy it will be cleared out of your body like other drugs more or less.

Im not saying any one cyclist is on this stuff, but I say its possible if you had the means. We all day but we have blood passports and checks, well this I am sure they would not detect yet.

 

[ColonelKidneyBeans]

Let's presume that Tadej is protected and compare to Lance. Lance had all these rumours and whispers of doping surrounding him, his rivals and former teammates hinted to him being a doper. None of this is happening to Pogacar.

You have comments from various riders like Bardet hinting at something being wrong "this is motoGP", this is not nothing.