Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Red Rick]

Fair point, yet thats why RNA therapeutics are of more practical use. ASO's are not a definate change as compared to gene therapy, if you stop the therapy it will be cleared out of your body like other drugs more or less.

Im not saying any one cyclist is on this stuff, but I say its possible if you had the means. We all day but we have blood passports and checks, well this I am sure they would not detect yet.

With the blood passport and all I actually really do believe that a lot of the modern stuff will do the work intracullularly rather than just having more oxygen in thicker blood. The focus on everything oxygen vector doesn't make that much sense to me because the passport should just catch it and it all has sorta similar pathways.

 

[pelotonIQ]

You have comments from various riders like Bardet hinting at something being wrong "this is motoGP", this is not nothing.

Bardet is known for his strong stance against doping but I have not seen him specifically hint at any individual rider.

 

[meat puppet]

With the blood passport and all I actually really do believe that a lot of the modern stuff will do the work intracullularly rather than just having more oxygen in thicker blood. The focus on everything oxygen vector doesn't make that much sense to me because the passport should just catch it and it all has sorta similar pathways.

Not to be argumentative, quite the opposite really, and just curious: how would the intracellular thing work?

Conventional wisdom is that basically endurance performance is a function of one's capacity to produce a lot of ATP for a long time via the aerobic pathways from fat and glycogen. That way a high level of ATP production, which sustains performance, can itself be sustained for a long time.

More practically, oxygen is required in the relevant steps that turn chemical energy stored in substrate into physical force via muscle contractions. Blood and more specifically hemoglobin are the natural methods of transportation of oxygen from the lungs to the mitochondria of the working muscles, where ATP is produced aerobically.

Is the idea that there are ways to bypass this? What am I missing here?

 

[Red Rick]

Not to be argumentative, quite the opposite really, and just curious: how would the intracellular thing work?

Conventional wisdom is that basically endurance performance is a function of one's capacity to produce a lot of ATP for a long time via the aerobic pathways from fat and glycogen. That way a high level of ATP production, which sustains performance, can itself be sustained for a long time.

More practically, oxygen is required in the relevant steps that turn chemical energy stored in substrate into physical force via muscle contractions. Blood and more specifically hemoglobin are the natural methods of transportation of oxygen from the lungs to the mitochondria of the working muscles, where ATP is produced aerobically.

Is the idea that there are ways to bypass this? What am I missing here?

Oxygen is a small molecule that diffuses across the cell membrane in a passive process, which means that to transfer oxygen into the cells you need a difference in concentration. If you have more machinery in the cells that uses all the oxygen, you get less in the cells and thus you transport more into the cells even if you have the same amount of oxygen in your own blood.

I base this on absolutely nothing but my understanding of exercise physiology from studying it 8 years ago.

The part of the theory I struggle with is what downside it has because if it has no downside it would happen naturally due to evolution alone.

 

[ColonelKidneyBeans]

Bardet is known for his strong stance against doping but I have not seen him specifically hint at any individual rider.

You're right he wasn't specific, but that comment can be easily interpreted as "there's a broad problem".

Pogacar is not the only one who's going super fast with a dubious entourage, he's the winningest by far and probably has the dirtiest staff around him (and on that front 2024-2025 Astana might actually give UAE a run for their money), but that does not mean he's the only dirty rider, far from it, but you already know my position on that point courtesy on our exchange about visma.

 

[Lorzenz08]

But why? It's not like you are the one "kicking ass" or gain anything from him making a mockery out of every other rider, and quite a few of them are presumably on the program and also knows what to eat and which pillow to use mind you.

Weird thing to get some personal pride or joy out of in my opinion so I am genuinely curious as to why you think that it's a good thing.

In my case, I really enjoy the fact that he is not from one of the "legacy cycling nations" like Belgium, France, Italy, Denmark, Netherlands, Spain, Denmark.

I know it is bothering a lot of chauvinistic people that someone from a small slavic nation is kicking their butt 😂

 

[Gianetti_Is_The_Goat]

Pogi is just a one in a century talent.


You could give 10x the amount of doping that Pogi receives to Pantani, he would never finish Paris Roubaix within the top 30.

Same with Armstrong he would not finish Paris Roubaix or RVV within the top 10. No matter how much doping.

This is the proof it is something else than doping. He is just incredibly talented.

Check his results before he joined UAE. Above average, nothing more. Technically, he's a very skilled bike rider.

 

[BullsFan22]

In my case, I really enjoy the fact that he is not from one of the "legacy cycling nations" like Belgium, France, Italy, Denmark, Netherlands, Spain, Denmark.

I know it is bothering a lot of chauvinistic people that someone from a small slavic nation is kicking their butt 😂

I know the UK isn’t a ‘legacy cycling nation,’ but you can almost add them as well.

 

[Gianetti_Is_The_Goat]

Let's presume that Tadej is protected and compare to Lance. Lance had all these rumours and whispers of doping surrounding him, his rivals and former teammates hinted to him being a doper. None of this is happening to Pogacar.

You're sure about that? https://rmcsport.bfmtv.com/cyclisme...ons-de-douter-de-pogacar_AV-202107150148.html

« Je demande qu’il publie ses paramètres » : Jean-René Bernaudeau réclame plus de clarté face aux suspicions sur les performances exceptionnelles de Tadej Pogacar

Jean-René Bernaudeau, directeur de l’équipe TotalEnergies, a lancé un appel à Tadej Pogacar dans une interview à RMC Sport, l’invitant à partager ses données de course pour mettre fin à toute spéculation sur ses performances hors du commun.

www.sudinfo.be

 

[Gianetti_Is_The_Goat]

In my case, I really enjoy the fact that he is not from one of the "legacy cycling nations" like Belgium, France, Italy, Denmark, Netherlands, Spain, Denmark.

I know it is bothering a lot of chauvinistic people that someone from a small slavic nation is kicking their butt 😂

It's the dirtiest duo in cycling that's kicking butts, but I'm glad that you set your priorities and are enjoying this freak show.

 

[Gianetti_Is_The_Goat]

In my case, I really enjoy the fact that he is not from one of the "legacy cycling nations" like Belgium, France, Italy, Denmark, Netherlands, Spain, Denmark.

I know it is bothering a lot of chauvinistic people that someone from a small slavic nation is kicking their butt 😂

You really seem to hate Denmark.

 

[Gianetti_Is_The_Goat]

Bardet is known for his strong stance against doping but I have not seen him specifically hint at any individual rider.

Right, Bardet appears to be a fan of Pogacar.

Etonnamment intouchable, Pogacar a dégoûté Bardet

L’ultra domination de Tadej Pogacar en 2024 a laissé à Romain Bardet un désagréable sentiment d’impuissance, et des interrogations…

www.sports.fr

 

[anti -e-bike]

Let's presume that Tadej is protected and compare to Lance. Lance had all these rumours and whispers of doping surrounding him, his rivals and former teammates hinted to him being a doper. None of this is happening to Pogacar.

wait and see

the rumours are there but the omerta and cognitive dissonance is stronger than ever

 

[cnort]

the availability of oligonucleotide-based or in general gene therapeutic material for misuse by athletes is conceivable.

Oligarch-based? That's old news - Tinkov has been and gone.

 

[Unchained]

View: https://m.youtube.com/shorts/3ZbFsE-Kvag

 

[Unchained]

View: https://m.youtube.com/shorts/jz45CIzILlk

 

[Unchained]

View: https://m.youtube.com/shorts/gkMMLljI2MQ

 

[Unchained]

View: https://m.youtube.com/shorts/5P-eHsIAJfw

 

[Tim Cahill]

Okey let me be toatally honest here. Not even sure if it's allowed here, but maybe it's up to the moderators to decide on it.

So as I am a Finn I'm not from a big cycling nation. I used to play icehockey for a very long time, some athletes, football etc. added. Today I am a father of two little ones and they are the center of my world. So if I get "angry" about the current state of the sport that I also dearly love, it has no meaning in the bigger state of affairs, but because sports also has a big part in my life, I will always be saying what i think and how I feel about something. After all it gives that extra spark in your life😊Honestly I just don't freaking like what Gianetti&Co are doing to the top3 sport that I like to watch so much.. They say Finland is the happiest nation in the world and don't know even how many years in a row..but maybe it's the honesty and sisu(grit).

The reason I wrote this, because some members think that I am here only to dislike pog, but it couldnt be more far away from the truth.

P.S if you want to understand what being finnish means you just need to listen this:

View: https://youtu.be/fE0RbPsC9uE?si=aYwARSxOZednisJh

My not originally finnish wife surely understood it🙏🏼 and im suprised how well the British choir is pronouncing finnish.

Horrendously off topic so apologies, might be surprising to know most people of a certain age round here at least know of him, as the sandbox composition software used in all British high school music classes is called 'Sibelius'.

I didn't listen to my piano teacher as much as I should've when I was younger and basically refused to practice technical exercises, so she had to make do assigning pieces mimicking the desired effects. I can still play his 2nd Etude (from the 13 pieces) 20 years later and remember a tiny nun telling me to "**** apply yourself more" every time I do. I guess her methods kinda worked in the end, though it surprised me to learn he didn't really think much of the pieces himself, they're very nostalgic for me.

So anyway yeah about err who was it, right Pogacar.

 

[YellowSocks]

Horrendously off topic so apologies, might be surprising to know most people of a certain age round here at least know of him, as the sandbox composition software used in all British high school music classes is called 'Sibelius'.

I didn't listen to my piano teacher as much as I should've when I was younger and basically refused to practice technical exercises, so she had to make do assigning pieces mimicking the desired effects. I can still play his 2nd Etude 20 years later and remember a tiny nun telling me to "**** apply yourself more" every time I do. I guess her methods kinda worked in the end, though it surprised me to learn he didn't really think much of the pieces himself, they're very nostalgic for me.

So anyway yeah about err who was it, right Pogacar.

I am adding to the off topic (let's take a deep breath before the mountain stages): I played Finlandia, the Karelia Suite and the violin concerto (in a community orchestra). Magnificent composer

 

[pelotonIQ]

You're sure about that? https://rmcsport.bfmtv.com/cyclisme...ons-de-douter-de-pogacar_AV-202107150148.html

« Je demande qu’il publie ses paramètres » : Jean-René Bernaudeau réclame plus de clarté face aux suspicions sur les performances exceptionnelles de Tadej Pogacar

Jean-René Bernaudeau, directeur de l’équipe TotalEnergies, a lancé un appel à Tadej Pogacar dans une interview à RMC Sport, l’invitant à partager ses données de course pour mettre fin à toute spéculation sur ses performances hors du commun.

www.sudinfo.be

When you dig a bit further you see that there is self-interest involved in this article. Bernaudeau is the general manager of Team TotalEnergies and he is also the co-founder of this 'anti-doping' association called Movement for a credible cycling (MPCC) that is being shilled in the article. As a whole the article focuses on past scandals and boils down to Bernaudeau asking Pogacar to publish all his numbers for the public (and rival teams to see and collect data from). Very cheeky attempt from Bernaudeau I must say.

 

[ColonelKidneyBeans]

Yeah I knew about the RNA stuff, I have a background in medical science but my knowledge on the stuff isn't all that up to date. But my general understanding is that the much bigger issue is drug delivery is the big issue

I could be wrong ofcourse. It would kinda make sense in that if it were just everyone on mad peptides then the really ridiculous level changes would be more widespread.

You already have stuff like inclisiran (for familial hypercholesterolemia) or patisiran available in the UE right at your local pharmacy.
The delivery is more or less sorted out, it isn't actually that complicated, mainly it is achieved by conjugating the siRNA with another small molecule that has a tropism for the target organ (like GalNac for liver targeting, see inclisiran) the biggest hurdle was to make the RNA stable enough (resistant to the degradation from the body nuclease enzymes mainly), which is achieved by using modified nucleotides (inclisiran uses a mix of methyl, fluoro and deoxy nucleotides iirc).
Reading the summary of product characteristics of Leqvio (the commercial name of inclisiran) is actually quite interesting, on the PK section of the document, they claim that "concentrations reached undetectable levels after 48h" but at the same time the drug achieves a ~50% reduction in LDL-C from baseline more than 180 days after a single dose.

 

[Ripper]

You really seem to hate Denmark.

What's really interesting is how nationalistic it all ends up being. Honestly, from somebody who's not European at all, it almost seems a bit racist of a reason to take such joy in others simply stating their concerns!

I mean, I don't think most people are actually getting agitated about TP specifically. Drug use in sport, cheating in general, the corrupt leadership of that team, sure, I can see those being an annoyance for some people (me included).

 

[Gianetti_Is_The_Goat]

What's really interesting is how nationalistic it all ends up being. Honestly, from somebody who's not European at all, it almost seems a bit racist of a reason to take such joy in others simply stating their concerns!

I mean, I don't think most people are actually getting agitated about TP specifically. Drug use in sport, cheating in general, the corrupt leadership of that team, sure, I can see those being an annoyance for some people (me included).

It's a joke. He wrote Denmark twice in his original post.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

The guy could have had citizenship in all countries in the world or have been an actual alien from Jupiter, but it wouldn't have changed my opinion of what he's doing. And this is coming from a Dane who despises what Vingegaard has turned into from spring 2021 to present day.