Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Red Rick]

By the way what was the wind situation today? The rest of the guys finished together, soooo?

 

[sir fly]

Contador didn't slow down after he demoralized everyone on Etna in the 2011 Giro.

But I dropped in to the Clinic to see if any conjecture on how Pogi might be avoiding the controls. Instead I read arguments about geography.? This is when the Clinic lets itself down.

I don't care of he's from planet Mars what would be helpful to know is how he could avoid the doping controls and why he has this advantage compared to his rivals? It is clear most who come here have no clue how the UCI passport works (i.e.; it doesn't detect "substances"). But I don't want to wait 8 years to find out if he gets referred for an adverse finding, by then he has wiped clean Indurain's current 5 straight TdF wins official record and also Armstrong's 7 straight unofficial record.

It's more politics than geography.
Passports are politics as well.
There you go.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

By the way what was the wind situation today? The rest of the guys finished together, soooo?

In Annecy almost no wind (1-2 m/s).

 

[Cookster15]

Contador wasn't near this insane. And he still showed lots of restraint.

True, Contador didn't launch long range attacks. But he destroyed his rivals on multiple MTFs. I'll re-find my love for this Tour if Pogi can continue to destroy everyone on a few of the remaining MTFs. If he sits on his lead to ride conservatively I'll be switching off.

On the flip side Pogi wasn't dominant in the TT. There is still a glimmer of hope to see a competition.

 

[Eeslliw]

By the way what was the wind situation today? The rest of the guys finished together, soooo?

Guy on motorbike following riders said it was strong head wind (at least that section).

 

[Red Rick]

True, Contador didn't launch long range attacks. But he destroyed his rivals on multiple MTFs. I'll re-find my love for this Tour if Pogi can continue to destroy everyone on a few of the remaining MTFs. If he sits on his lead to ride conservatively I'll be switching off.

On the flip side Pogi wasn't dominant in the TT. There is still a glimmer of hope to see a competition.

The only thing that can stop Pogacar is Omi and Opi

 

[hrotha]

But I dropped in to the Clinic to see if any conjecture on how Pogi might be avoiding the controls. Instead I read arguments about geography.? This is when the Clinic lets itself down.

What kind of speculation did you expect? The fact is we haven't got a glimpse of a top program since... Frei? 2010? And there hasn't really been any interest in antidoping, institutionally, since... 2012 or thereabouts? We're almost completely in the dark. We can see things are weird because they keep going faster and faster, but we have almost no material beyond "that guy sure goes fast" or "that dude didn't use to be this much of a climber".

Pogačar presumably avoids controls by timing things properly. Other than that, ¯\(ツ)/¯

 

[Netserk]

What kind of speculation did you expect? The fact is we haven't got a glimpse of a top program since... Frei? 2010? And there hasn't really been any interest in antidoping, institutionally, since... 2012 or thereabouts? We're almost completely in the dark. We can see things are weird because they keep going faster and faster, but we have almost no material beyond "that guy sure goes fast" or "that dude didn't use to be this much of a climber".

Pogačar presumably avoids controls by timing things properly. Other than that, ¯\(ツ)/¯

We have the passport near-misses of Kreuziger and Henao, so I think we can well assume that teams have figured out how to have more wiggle room there, and then we know that the peloton has stepped up since the pandemic.

With Preidler's bust, we also know that the cost of blood doping has lowered significantly since the days of Puerto (at least compared to a top program back then).

 

[Cookster15]

What kind of speculation did you expect? The fact is we haven't got a glimpse of a top program since... Frei? 2010? And there hasn't really been any interest in antidoping, institutionally, since... 2012 or thereabouts? We're almost completely in the dark. We can see things are weird because they keep going faster and faster, but we have almost no material beyond "that guy sure goes fast" or "that dude didn't use to be this much of a climber".

Pogačar presumably avoids controls by timing things properly. Other than that, ¯\(ツ)/¯

I hope for genuine speculation rather than than mindless banter. So other teams and riders haven't considered timing things properly.? I am not sure you understand how the passport works either. Are you saying Pogi and Gianetti are gambling they can steal a few TdFs before the UCI hawks catch up with them with an adverse finding? The best explanation I have read since the pandemic arrived for the climbing speeds is lack of OOC testing. Another explanation which may relate to your comment is the tests are not being followed up and maybe Gianetti know this but why not other teams - especially the best funded of them all?

 

[Ripper]

Contador didn't slow down after he demoralized everyone on Etna in the 2011 Giro.

But I dropped in to the Clinic to see if any conjecture on how Pogi might be avoiding the controls. Instead I read arguments about geography.? This is when the Clinic lets itself down.

I don't care of he's from planet Mars what would be helpful to know is how he could avoid the doping controls and why he has this advantage compared to his rivals? It is clear most who come here have no clue how the UCI passport works (i.e.; it doesn't detect "substances"). But I don't want to wait 8 years to find out if he gets referred for an adverse finding, by then he has wiped clean Indurain's current 5 straight TdF wins official record and also Armstrong's 7 straight unofficial record.

Well none of us know do we? Otherwise, the conversation would be looking a lot different, as would the press articles! It is most likely a combination of good physicians, good product, and good process. Could there be new substances? Sure. Could it be good old fashioned blood doping on a sustained basis, done very carefully, and supplemented with other means? Of course with the right expertise to guide the way and great genetics? Sure, it could be that too. It's never really simple anymore, otherwise it'd simply be a matter of going online, or going to some quack, and your winning world championships.

I'm sure Gianetti has learned a few tricks over the years.

 

[Forever The Best]

Hopefully someone pulls the trigger and stops this. One rider being so far above the field isn't good for entertainment either.

 

[Mayomaniac]

We have the passport near-misses of Kreuziger and Henao, so I think we can well assume that teams have figured out how to have more wiggle room there, and then we know that the peloton has stepped up since the pandemic.

With Preidler's bust, we also know that the cost of blood doping has lowered significantly since the days of Puerto (at least compared to a top program back then).

The whole Aderlass-program looked like a rather generic one for middle of the road riders/decent domestiques, nothing outstanding. The biggest outliner was probably Denifl, who won the Österreich Rundfahrt against MAL and that Vuelta stage from the breakaway.
The point is, I wouldn't see that one as the benchmark for a high level program.

 

[Red Rick]

To be honest with outliers like Pogacar, I doubt it's just about being within the wiggle room of tests and having a marginal gains type program.

This doesn't look like they're roughly on the same stuff and he's just doing it better.

 

[Netserk]

The whole Aderlass-program looked like a rather generic one for middle of the road riders/decent domestiques, nothing outstanding. The biggest outliner was probably Denifl, who won the Österreich Rundfahrt against MAL and that Vuelta stage from the breakaway.
The point is, I wouldn't see that one as the benchmark for a high level program.

No, but from what I remember the price-range was so low pretty much any (WT) pro could blood dope if they wanted. Do you know if they used fridge or freezer?

 

[hrotha]

We have the passport near-misses of Kreuziger and Henao, so I think we can well assume that teams have figured out how to have more wiggle room there, and then we know that the peloton has stepped up since the pandemic.

With Preidler's bust, we also know that the cost of blood doping has lowered significantly since the days of Puerto (at least compared to a top program back then).

Yeah I should have said "tell-all" instead of a glimpse. We've gotten glimpses here and there, but not enough to sorta reconstruct a top program the way we could between Puerto and the fall of Armstrong. There's evidence that blood doping still pays a role, and also that weight loss drugs are or were important, but little else.

 

[hrotha]

I hope for genuine speculation rather than than mindless banter. So other teams and riders haven't considered timing things properly.? I am not sure you understand how the passport works either. Are you saying Pogi and Gianetti are gambling they can steal a few TdFs before the UCI hawks catch up with them with an adverse finding? The best explanation I have read since the pandemic arrived for the climbing speeds is lack of OOC testing. Another explanation which may relate to your comment is the tests are not being followed up and maybe Gianetti know this but why not other teams - especially the best funded of them all?

What? Who said anything about Pogačar and Gianetti "gambling"?
They have no reason to expect a bust as long as they're careful and professional about it. Most dopers never get caught. That was always true, but it seems to me it was never truer than in the last decade.

Taking wild risks is only one way to go faster. There are others. We don't need to posit that they have access to any product or method fundamentally different from everybody else's. They just need to be doing it better, or to respond better to it, or even to have more base talent.

 

[BullsFan22]

Technically that's correct, although Yugoslavia was briefly a Soviet state until it detached in 1948. However its persistence with communism, albeit not Soviet communism, maintained its perception as an Eastern European region.

LOL. Yugoslavia was never a ‘Soviet State.’ Where do you people get your information?!?

 

[Cookster15]

To be honest with outliers like Pogacar, I doubt it's just about being within the wiggle room of tests and having a marginal gains type program.

This doesn't look like they're roughly on the same stuff and he's just doing it better.

Anything that boosts RBC counts is going to run the risk of triggering an adverse finding. I'd love to know what this stuff could be.

What? Who said anything about Pogačar and Gianetti "gambling"?
They have no reason to expect a bust as long as they're careful and professional about it. Most dopers never get caught. That was always true, but it seems to me it was never truer than in the last decade.

Taking wild risks is only one way to go faster. There are others. We don't need to posit that they have access to any product or method fundamentally different from everybody else's. They just need to be doing it better, or to respond better to it, or even to have more base talent.

Such as? And you seem to have a strange idea of what the Clinic can be for. It can be for mindless banter but it can also be to pose genuine logical and well reasoned explanations - too hard? Well can you see by asking a few questions I am forcing you guys to make this thread worthwhile. I don't think base talent explains what we are seeing. Taking wild risks is gambling. Taking calculated risks is also gambling.

 

[PhiLiz]

I hope Pogacar destroys some climbing records this Tour. That would remove all doubt.

How the hell can anyone have any doubt after today?!

 

[hrotha]

Such as?

Are you asking me to substantiate my claim that designing and prescribing a doping program that best suits an individual is something that takes skill and that there is variance even if everybody has access to essentially the same products and methods? Because that's what "They just need to be doing it better" meant.

 

[MikeS369]

Pogacar had serious credentials as a young kid and has been racing for awhile. His talent is a known at least as much as Remco's so they exist as great genetic specimens. Lance....not so much.

I know his credentials and Remco's and Armstrong's. How do you know these guys are some superior "genetic specimens"? Just because they dominated at a young age? I mean we all know amateurs and juniors are as pure as the driven snow. I'm not making a declarative statement that Podacar is dopping. I'm talking about things I notice and things the make me suspicious.

Now today he pull another one that reminds me of Armstrong on at Sestriere.

 

[Cookster15]

Are you asking me to substantiate my claim that designing and prescribing a doping program that best suits an individual is something that takes skill and that there is variance even if everybody has access to essentially the same products and methods? Because that's what "They just need to be doing it better" meant.

Yes. Thanks for providing a snippet of something worthwhile rather then arguments about whether Slovenia was under the iron curtain. Hopefully this speculation can be built upon here .

 

[canarydan23]

LOL. Yugoslavia was never a ‘Soviet State.’ Where do you people get your information?!?

It was a part of the Soviet Bloc between 1945 and 1948.

 

[BlueRoads]

Anything that boosts RBC counts is going to run the risk of triggering an adverse finding. I'd love to know what this stuff could be.


Such as? And you seem to have a strange idea of what the Clinic can be for. It can be for mindless banter but it can also be to pose genuine logical and well reasoned explanations - too hard? Well can you see by asking a few questions I am forcing you guys to make this thread worthwhile. I don't think base talent explains what we are seeing. Taking wild risks is gambling. Taking calculated risks is also gambling.

We simply have no idea, and from some reactions of other riders it almost looks like they don't either.
Okay, they probably know a bit more than we do, because we are absolutely clueless, aren't we?

To me it looks like some kind of blood-doping, some pretty old-school thing just modernised. Not that I know anything about these things, that's just what it resembles, especially since Pogacar doesn't have the most constant highest level, very high, yes, but it looks like he can up his game for certain events/ days. This also doesn't look like some kind of elaborate know-how about the best mix of hormonal micro-doping, the way that a year ago I thought doping today was done.

My best bet, and it's really nothing more than a bet, is that they are willing to take bigger risks, go for full juice instead of holding back, not working on the safe side, but risking to get caught, gambling on not getting caught.
He's probably going to win his second Tour this year, so of course the focus is all on him, but it's not like he's the only one who showed ridiculous stuff this year. Padun and Cavendish are up there as well for me, on a lower level a few others as well.
He's probably pretty talented to begin with and also a good responder.

 

[Skalman]

One thing i find odd though, is that the pundits doesn't even offer doping as a possibility but instead leans on the fact that nobody has been caught so there for cycling is clean.
In my Country the reporters are very anti-doping (of course) but they are just in a awe and say that he is special, no doubt he is but why is he special? they don't even broach the subject, which i find disturbing and also bad reporting. I dont suggest they come out and slander him of course but when something is off this many times, the idea must be there, no?