Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Ripper]

Tour de France: Tadej Pogacar's coach hits back at doubters, says rivals have yet to push him

Dr. Iñigo San Millán says skepticism around Pogačar is unwarranted; rivals simply aren't as strong in 2021 as they were last year.

www.velonews.com

Yep, seems like a real slow tour so far. Didn't TP set a record on one climb, somethin somethin?

I've certainly seen lots of riders saying how easy it is so far

 

[Mayomaniac]

Oh! Well if his coach said it, it must be true. Allen Lim says hi!

Millán became the lead physiologist at Garmin when Lim left for Radioshack, so your reference is on point.
The guys CV isn't exactly filled with trushworthy teams: Vitalicio, ONCE, Vini Caldirola, Saunier Duval, Astana (back in 2007), Garmin, UHC and now UAE.

 

[Froome]

Oh! Well if his coach said it, it must be true. Allen Lim says hi!

He's not gonna lie about the 5.79 w/kg, because if he does that, the coaches of ineos and other teams, would say something about that.

 

[Ripper]

Millán became the lead physiologist at Garmin when Lim left for Radioshack, so your reference is on point.
The guys CV isn't exactly filled with trushworthy teams: Vitalicio, ONCE, Vini Caldirola, Saunier Duval, Astana (back in 2007), Garmin, UHC and now UAE.

I completely forgot he was involved with 2007 Astana!

OMG, nothing to see over at UAE folks!

 

[Ripper]

He's not gonna lie about the 5.79 w/kg, because if he does that, the coaches of ineos and other teams, would say something about that.

Is that the truthy truth? We are 100% certain that other coaches/teams the Tour are going to start calling out grey area, speculative data? Teams like Ineos, with their own history of clarity and transparency?

 

[BlueRoads]

He's not gonna lie about the 5.79 w/kg, because if he does that, the coaches of ineos and other teams, would say something about that.

Maybe one has to take the weather and the whole of all stages into account, factors like the fast beginnings...

 

[Mayomaniac]

I completely forgot he was involved with 2007 Astana!

OMG, nothing to see over at UAE folks!

Ironic how Pogi also pulled an Albi in that TT, just like Vino back in 2007.

 

[meat puppet]

For what it's worth there was a thread about san millan on this very forum some 10yrs ago. Given his cycling CV, I was rather surprised to find out that quite a few alleged insiders / in the know posters were very willing to defend him.

How dodgy is San Millán

How dodgy is San Millán In the "JV talks, sort of" thread, we've been discussing the degree of dodgyness of Garmin's former (2010) doctor Inigo San Millán, who joined Garmin in January 2010, replacing Allen Lim, but left Garmin presumably towards the end of the same year. Update on our friend...

forum.cyclingnews.com

 

[saganftw]

Maybe one has to take the weather and the whole of all stages into account, factors like the fast beginnings...

you could make a serious weather argument about pogacar, remember tirreno? terrible,cold day he almost caught Mvdp after he attacked and completely destroyed van aert, both riders who should be relatively well equiped to handle cold weather being CX who often perform in snow and rain

and about the low numbers, the only guy who i expected a lot more from is Carapaz, do i think Pogacar is 5 minutes better under normal circumstances than Kelderman,Uran,Vingegaard? absolutely ... but carapaz should be better, you have to question his performance so far, two pointless long(er) range attacks,caught both time, very meh so far

so there are few questions like "do the fast starts in stages benefit pogacar?" - he is very good classics rider, already showed he can recover really well, so while overall racing might be faster, its not causing him as much damage as it does to others (which would also support the good doctor saying he is not pushing better numbers than last year), "is the combination of fast racing and bad weather the absolutely perfect condition for pogacar, while others suffer either from one or another - hence 5,8w/kg"

it looks to me like his first place overall isnt a surprise to anyone, 5 minutes especially on carapaz is, so lets see how spanish warm weather in pyrenees either support or dismiss the theory that pogacar is doing his own thing while others are clowning

 

[Riek s]

Think this discussion about the competition is a bid odd...
Imagine if the competition of Armstrong was a bit weaker... he would have set even better records on the climbs..

The weakness of the competition doesn't change that he is having climb records equaling the dope years (or known super talents under dope)

 

[Bolder]

Think this discussion about the competition is a bid odd...
Imagine if the competition of Armstrong was a bit weaker... he would have set even better records on the climbs..

The weakness of the competition doesn't change that he is having climb records equaling the dope years (or known super talents under dope)

Yes but if he wasn't 5 minutes ahead of the field the volume would be lower here.

 

[PhiLiz]

Pogacar's coach inigo san millan, said today that formolo did 5.79 w/kg on col de la colombiere, so carapaz, mas and the others did the same performance because they we're in the same group. And also formolo was sick.
This is the prove that the opponents of pogacar's this year on tour de france are very weak, so it wasn't difficult for him to gain 2 min on everybody. So again, i don't understand this suspicions around him.
Again, to me, la planche des belles filles could be the only performance out of this world by pogacar, but i believe he has the natural talent for that.

Yes and his coach has no reason to lie!

 

[Escarabajo]

Pogacar's coach inigo san millan, said today that formolo did 5.79 w/kg on col de la colombiere, so carapaz, mas and the others did the same performance because they we're in the same group. And also formolo was sick.
This is the prove that the opponents of pogacar's this year on tour de france are very weak, so it wasn't difficult for him to gain 2 min on everybody. So again, i don't understand this suspicions around him.
Again, to me, la planche des belles filles could be the only performance out of this world by pogacar, but i believe he has the natural talent for that.

Puff, thanks for posting. I was worried for a moment that Pogi was doped after that performance. Especially coming from these coaches who never lie.

 

[Escarabajo]

He's not gonna lie about the 5.79 w/kg, because if he does that, the coaches of ineos and other teams, would say something about that.

Sure they will!

 

[solo80k]

He's not gonna lie about the 5.79 w/kg, because if he does that, the coaches of ineos and other teams, would say something about that.

He was hanging behind GC guys and this is 5,8 W/kg according to his coach. Can we estimate Pogs numbers based on this? Don't think so...

I understand most of the damage was made on a previous climb. It's hard to believe that he was putting everyone else in a red zone with only 5,8 W/kg.

What's really interesting... Ineos helpers were dropped by freaking Formolo, that says much when you see Kwiatkowski/Thomas drilling the same field on much harder stages later in the race and Formolo is dropped minutes earlier.

 

[Froome]

He was hanging behind GC guys and this is 5,8 W/kg according to his coach. Can we estimate Pogs numbers based on this? Don't think so...

I understand most of the damage was made on a previous climb. It's hard to believe that he was putting everyone else in a red zone with only 5,8 W/kg.

What's really interesting... Ineos helpers were dropped by freaking Formolo, that says much when you see Kwiatkowski/Thomas drilling the same field on much harder stages later in the race and Formolo is dropped minutes earlier.

Pogacar did 6.3 w/kg. Thomas was injured. A lot of people suffered with the rain.

 

[Froome]

Puff, thanks for posting. I was worried for a moment that Pogi was doped after that performance. Especially coming from these coaches who never lie.

You re welcome. Pogacar's numbers are good, but not out of this world, so he is not doped.

 

[solo80k]

Pogacar did 6.3 w/kg. Thomas was injured. A lot of people suffered with the rain.

It's quite high considering conditions and long range solo, but not as high as I expected. Not outrageous

 

[Froome]

It's quite high considering conditions and long range solo, but not as high as I expected. Not outrageous

The conditions were great for pogacar, he's better in the rain than in the heat.
Another thing, the level is weak this year, what the hell is lutsenko doing in the gc group? The level is so weak that they made pogacar look like a alien, but if we see the numbers of pogacar, yeah, it's not that high.
He did better performances last year on peyresourde 6.5 w/kg, and on la planche des belles filles.
My suspicions about doping, is about bahrain merida.
If pogacar were on doping, is team also would be on doping and making better performances. We saw today how weak emirates team is.

 

[Pirazziattacks]

You re welcome. Pogacar's numbers are good, but not out of this world, so he is not doped.

Simple. I'm convinced, close the thread already mods!

 

[Rackham]

The conditions were great for pogacar, he's better in the rain than in the heat.
Another thing, the level is weak this year, what the hell is lutsenko doing in the gc group? The level is so weak that they made pogacar look like a alien, but if we see the numbers of pogacar, yeah, it's not that high.
He did better performances last year on peyresourde 6.5 w/kg, and on la planche des belles filles.
My suspicions about doping, is about bahrain merida.
If pogacar were on doping, is team also would be on doping and making better performances. We saw today how weak emirates team is.

Lance Armstrong & his US Postal teammates were all doped in 1999 & 2000, but his team couldn't control the race & he often found himself isolated at the end of a mountain stage. This happened in 1999 & especially in 2000 when Pantani caused chaos in the Alps & put Lance in a difficult spot on Joux Plane. So there's similarities between how Lance used to ride (i.e. destroy the field in the first mountain stage & then control the GC group in week 2 & 3 on the final climbs) & how Pogacar is riding this year. With the common factor being both had/have weak teams.

This will change for Pogacar as UAE continue to hire top riders to support him in the coming years, just as US Postal did. But the relative weakness of UAE in no way means performance enhancing drugs are not part of their program, it just means rival teams have stronger riders in support of their leader.

Because even with drugs throughout the peloton there's still a hierarchy in which the Ineos & Jumbo super domestiques are stronger than UAE's. Just as there was 20 years ago when US Postal only had Kevin Livingston & Tyler Hamilton as support for Lance on the climbs, i.e. even though both were juiced up to their eyeballs it still wasn't enough.

 

[Mr. 64%]

Uh... Sorry, since when has +6 W/Kg for two consecutive, hard cat. 1 climbs been normal, while the 5.8 W/Kg supposedly done by everyone else "weak"?

5.8 W/kg for that amount of time - remember, we're talking two fairly long, steep climbs that came in very quick succesion - was considered the outlier of what was "humanly possible" a few years ago. Nowadays, posters aren't even raising their eyebrows unless we're above 6.5 W/Kg. That's absolutely absurd IMO.

 

[Froome]

Lance Armstrong & his US Postal teammates were all doped in 1999 & 2000, but his team couldn't control the race & he often found himself isolated at the end of a mountain stage. This happened in 1999 & especially in 2000 when Pantani caused chaos in the Alps & put Lance in a difficult spot on Joux Plane. So there's similarities between how Lance used to ride (i.e. destroy the field in the first mountain stage & then control the GC group in week 2 & 3 on the final climbs) & how Pogacar is riding this year. With the common factor being both had/have weak teams.

This will change for Pogacar as UAE continue to hire top riders to support him in the coming years, just as US Postal did. But the relative weakness of UAE in no way means performance enhancing drugs are not part of their program, it just means rival teams have stronger riders in support of their leader.

Because even with drugs throughout the peloton there's still a hierarchy in which the Ineos & Jumbo super domestiques are stronger than UAE's. Just as there was 20 years ago when US Postal only had Kevin Livingston & Tyler Hamilton as support for Lance on the climbs, i.e. even though both were juiced up to their eyeballs it still wasn't enough.

But there is a great difference between pogacar and armstrong. Pogacar is not doing 6.7 w/kg in the mountains. I don't think doing 6.3 w/kg means that pogacar is doped.
I understand your point, but i don't believe the teams like ineos and jumbo are being more faster than teams like use postal in the past.

 

[PhiLiz]

Uh... Sorry, since when has +6 W/Kg for two consecutive, hard cat. 1 climbs been normal, while the 5.8 W/Kg supposedly done by everyone else "weak"?

5.8 W/kg for that amount of time - remember, we're talking two fairly long, steep climbs that came in very quick succesion - was considered the outlier of what was "humanly possible" a few years ago. Nowadays, posters aren't even raising their eyebrows unless we're above 6.5 W/Kg. That's absolutely absurd IMO.

Good post. I've also raised that point here: as if 6.3w/kg for two consecutive hard climbs and in that type of weatherwas "normal" or nothing to look at...

Absurd indeed.

 

[saganftw]

Uh... Sorry, since when has +6 W/Kg for two consecutive, hard cat. 1 climbs been normal, while the 5.8 W/Kg supposedly done by everyone else "weak"?

5.8 W/kg for that amount of time - remember, we're talking two fairly long, steep climbs that came in very quick succesion - was considered the outlier of what was "humanly possible" a few years ago. Nowadays, posters aren't even raising their eyebrows unless we're above 6.5 W/Kg. That's absolutely absurd IMO.

im not sure +6 is considered normal, at least from what i remember it was always referred to as absolute minimum to win a grand tour - so obviously anything below that is "weak" when talking about gc which is what the doctor is talking about, the group of other pre/con-tenders on that stage was weak and you dont even need the numbers to support that - when Formolo pulled out he stayed in that group untill the finish, they even caught Carapaz ...on that specific day the rest of gc was underperforming, while pogacar maintained what would be expected from him

on ventoux stage, his level dropped off a bit while others were stronger, again supported by the overall times, especially last 6km from vingegaard were extremely fast

im pretty sure all grand tour winners and contenders are capable of 6+ performances, how often and how much above 6 depends on quality (quality of athlete and quality of PEDs) ranging from armstrong/pantani(6,5+) levels through pog (on good day 6,5), contador somewhere around same ability, bernal must be pretty high as well

on the other end TGH was the luckiest grand tour winner since Hesjedal, the level of competition was so low he probably only scratched 6 watts even on good days