Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[the delgados]

Close sources are saying UAE brass are in a state of disarray after today's stage where team leader Tadej Pogacar lost the race, and are wondering where it all went wrong.
A dejected director sportif Andrej Hauptman addressed the media after Tadej's second place finish by saying "We've worked all year to win almost every stage in the Giro and this stage was one of them. We're going to look further into what went wrong after the Giro, but we've got a stage to win tomorrow."

 

[veganrob]

Naively I try not to think that a lot of riders are doped with the most advanced methods ever, specially Pog and The Fish, but reality always pushes through in the end. Perhaps journalists don't even have half the freedom that they used to, and are not allowed to ask certain questions. But lately (and I speak only from what I have noticed) there is a lot of talk about him doping and thus ruining cycling once again. A lot of fans are or have been talking about it.

Who is talking about it? The members on CN? Nobody cares about that. Wake up

 

[Slavique Nuke]

That's not the point and you know it. We've never seen this kind of day by day dominance against the entire peloton. Every single GT winner had to take it easy from time to time, but this guy competes for victory every time he wants to , even against riders that single out a specific stage. It is unseen and completely ridiculous.

I'm not sure if you actually watch cycling or understand what's going on there. In the stages Pog won, he was always a massive favourite. The Giro route is very easy and the quality of the startlist is extremely low. The question has always been how many stages he wants to win. Literally everything at the Giro is what everyone expected.

So I don't know why the trolls are surprised now.

 

[Cookster15]

Pantani also died under pretty sad circumstances, it's like he had nobody and he had been ostracized by the public after the doping scandal. It's only later that the public forgot and he has been hailed as a hero ever since. Pretty sad and nothing to emulate by the youngsters, imo.

I disagree with the bold - my impression was Pantani was a hero to many ever since he arrived on the scene in 1994. At that time the sport was dominated by big powerful riders like Indurain and Ullrich. The introverted Marco Pantani was the classic David and Goliath. Everyone knew about EPO then but we also accepted that almost all pros used it.

I was following cycling closely during Pantani's era. He was super popular long before the 1999 Giro. Many of us felt he was a victom of the times and no villain. His demise is one of, if not, the saddest things I have watched since following the sport.

 

[ivanic]

the problem aren't Martinez, Thomas, Bardet, the problem is that he makes them look stupid. They're *** world-class riders. Have you seen Martinez? He was dying of fatigue after the finish line

Pogačar Stomps the Competition in Livigno's Thin Air | Giro d'Italia Stage 15 2024 - Lanterne Rouge

Tadej Pogačar continued his domination in the 2024 Giro d'Italia with an impressive victory on the queen stage, dropping easily all of his GC rivals on Foscagno and later surpassing the strongest breakaway rider, Nairo Quintana, on the final climb.

lanternerouge.com

Livigno and the two ITT can't be clean performances. And maybe only during Perugia ITT he was in red zone.

 

[Ripper]

Why Pogacar would suffer against Martinez and this old version of Thomas? It would be a surprise if that happened.

If i see Pogacar absolutely beating Vingegaard, or Remco, Roglic or Van der poel without looking like he is suffering, then i will be very surprised!

Because racing grand tours is not a video game. It almost doesn't matter what level of competition is when he is able to put on demonstrations of power such that he is, seemingly whenever he wants

 

[Froome]

Because racing grand tours is not a video game. It almost doesn't matter what level of competition is when he is able to put on demonstrations of power such that he is, seemingly whenever he wants

He is a generational talent, i find it normal what happened on this Giro, against this field.

If he toys in the Tour with all the other top riders or with Van der poel in other races, then i will be more "surprised" and thinking something is really really wrong.

 

[Ripper]

He is a generational talent, i find it normal what happened on this Giro, against this field.

If he toys in the Tour with all the other top riders or with Van der poel in other races, then i will be more "surprised" and thinking something is really really wrong.

I see where you're coming from and I think we just disagree. I agree it's no surprise he's winning, nor is it a surprise to me that he is winning by as much as he is, or even how many stages he's taken. However, his ease of peddling at such accelerated rates ... in other words, the context and means by which he wins has me laughing, and not in a good way.

 

[Ripper]

I disagree with the bold - my impression was Pantani was a hero to many ever since he arrived on the scene in 1994. At that time the sport was dominated by big powerful riders like Indurain and Ullrich. The introverted Marco Pantani was the classic David and Goliath. Everyone knew about EPO then but we also accepted that almost all pros used it.

I was following cycling closely during Pantani's era. He was super popular long before the 1999 Giro. Many of us felt he was a victom of the times and no villain. His demise is one of, if not, the saddest things I have watched since following the sport.

It was extremely sad.

Regarding the section I bolded, no, not everyone knew.

 

[AmRacer]

That's not the point and you know it. We've never seen this kind of day by day dominance against the entire peloton. Every single GT winner had to take it easy from time to time, but this guy competes for victory every time he wants to , even against riders that single out a specific stage. It is unseen and completely ridiculous.

Peak Jonas could do exactly the same.

 

[Cookster15]

It was extremely sad.

Regarding the section I bolded, no, not everyone knew.

Well I am surprised, as like I said, I was following the sport closely back then. Even in Australia we all accepted the peloton was using EPO. It was all over our media here - including the stories of athletes dying in their sleep.

 

[Ripper]

Well I am surprised, as like I said, I was following the sport closely back then. Even in Australia we all accepted the peloton was using EPO. It was all over our media here - including the stories of athletes dying in their sleep.

I was pretty young and new at racing then, but I gathered from some other riders that they were also unaware until a few years after

 

[Froome]

I see where you're coming from and I think we just disagree. I agree it's no surprise he's winning, nor is it a surprise to me that he is winning by as much as he is, or even how many stages he's taken. However, his ease of peddling at such accelerated rates ... in other words, the context and means by which he wins has me laughing, and not in a good way.

I finded a "bit" more outrageous when he beat Van der Poel at Flandres.

 

[Extinction]

Peak Jonas could do exactly the same.

I'd like to see in the Giro. for which everything has changed since 95. Before then the Giro was a metric for being il campionissimo with the Tour. Since then the Giro has become an afterthought or at best a training ride for all but Italians. Yet the mystic of doing the double still strangely prevails. Maybe Pogacar.

 

[pastronef]

I'd like to see in the Giro. for which everything has changed since 95. Before that the Giro was a metric for being il campionissimo with the Tour. Since then the Giro has become an afterthought or at best a training ride for all but Italians. Yet the mystic of doing the double still strangely prevails. Maybe Pogacar.

Dumoulin, Hindley, Hesjedal, Froome, Menchov etc disagree

 

[Extinction]

Dumoulin, Hindley, Hesjedal, Froome, Menchov etc disagree

Not against Pogacar and Vingegaard, who hasn't even ridden the Giro.

 

[Andre]

Who is talking about it? The members on CN? Nobody cares about that. Wake up

No, not only members of CN...it's everywhere man. Plus don't you think "members of CN" are consequent at all?

 

[pastronef]

Not against Pogacar and Vingegaard, who hasn't even riden the Giro.

you said "since then it has become a training ride, Italians aside". since then many riders won and fought for the pink jersey.
Vingegaard is a different one, he does not even know which color is the lead jersey in many races. if you ask him to name the 5 monuments he probably can't. he's a Froome on tramadol, oblivious of everything sauf riding as hard as he can.

 

[Froome]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1793328690241175831

View: https://x.com/CyclingGraphs/status/1793328690241175831


How he could suffer doing 6 w/kg in 28 minutes(probably even less since LR overestimate the perfomances)?

 

[proffate]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1793328690241175831

View: https://x.com/CyclingGraphs/status/1793328690241175831


How he could suffer doing 6 w/kg in 28 minutes(probably even less since LR overestimate the perfomances)?

By his body language alone it doesn't look like Pog has gone past z3 on any of the mountain stages.

Other riders jump on the turbo after a stage to cool down. Pog gets on so he has a chance to do some intervals.

 

[Nomad]

I disagree with the bold - my impression was Pantani was a hero to many ever since he arrived on the scene in 1994. At that time the sport was dominated by big powerful riders like Indurain and Ullrich. The introverted Marco Pantani was the classic David and Goliath. Everyone knew about EPO then but we also accepted that almost all pros used it.

I was following cycling closely during Pantani's era. He was super popular long before the 1999 Giro. Many of us felt he was a victom of the times and no villain. His demise is one of, if not, the saddest things I have watched since following the sport.

Yes...his quick demise and ultimate passing was one of the saddest things I've ever seen. The Pirate was an exceptional talent & one of best climbers in the history of the sport. The battle against LA in 2000 on Ventoux was epic & something I'll never forget.

View: https://youtu.be/pPlW4k2sXJI?si=G7CZSJHwiyUknBGI

And here's the question for the doping experts: Everyone that mattered for GC was using gear back then, and everyone was using the same gear (EPO/ transfusions, testosterone, HGH, corticosteroids, etc). There was no special magic potion that was exclusively kept secret to one or a few riders. Everyone knew what the other guy was using & they made sure to obtain the same gear so they were not left behind.

What made the Pirate so much better than everyone else? Was he a better responder to O2-vector doping? Did he have a better PED program? Accomplishing a Giro-Tour double back then was a very tough thing to do. He definitely was a generational talent.

 

[Cookster15]

Did he have a better PED program?

I don’t think so. I remember watching the the 1998 Festina tour as it unfolded in which Pantani defeated Jan Ullrich to win the last double. Riders were interviewed during the various protests at overzealous police. It seemed clear to me that the peloton totally accepted Marco as a deserved champion. There seemed no animosity.

Thanks for your post - and the video.

 

[Tricycle Rider]

I disagree with the bold - my impression was Pantani was a hero to many ever since he arrived on the scene in 1994. At that time the sport was dominated by big powerful riders like Indurain and Ullrich. The introverted Marco Pantani was the classic David and Goliath. Everyone knew about EPO then but we also accepted that almost all pros used it.

I was following cycling closely during Pantani's era. He was super popular long before the 1999 Giro. Many of us felt he was a victom of the times and no villain. His demise is one of, if not, the saddest things I have watched since following the sport.

Being I didn't follow cycling back then I'm basing my impressions from reading stuff, and watching documentaries and interviews with Pantani himself, he was obviously immensely popular, but that was up until they kicked him out of the Giro because his hematocrit level was too high. After that he felt hounded by the press, apparently people followed him in cars and shouted he was a drug cheat and such, and he and his mother went so far as to suspect there was a conspiracy to bring him down. So maybe the general public didn't have ill feelings toward him, but the press made the most of his downfall.

It's been a few years since I've seen this documentary, but it's a haunting rewatch especially now that we're in the third week of the Giro. Pantani's relationship with the press is touched upon starting at around 1:20:00.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MgXT6dpm00

 

[Cookster15]

Being I didn't follow cycling back then I'm basing my impressions from reading stuff, and watching documentaries and interviews with Pantani himself, he was obviously immensely popular, but that was up until they kicked him out of the Giro because his hematocrit level was too high. After that he felt hounded by the press, apparently people followed him in cars and shouted he was a drug cheat and such, and he and his mother went so far as to suspect there was a conspiracy to bring him down. So maybe the general public didn't have ill feelings toward him, but the press made the most of his downfall.

It's been a few years since I've seen this documentary, but it's a haunting rewatch especially now that we're in the third week of the Giro. Pantani's relationship with the press is touched upon starting at around 1:20:00.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MgXT6dpm00

Looks like that video won’t play on my browser ☹️. But what I recall was it was mostly the Italian press who hounded Pantani? Back then he was no great villain in my country (Australia).

There should be a thread where we can discuss Marco Pantani openly rather than sidetracking the Pogacar / Gianetti thread? I’ll try to find if I get time unless someone else can chime in.

 

[Tricycle Rider]

Looks like that video won’t play on my browser ☹️. But what I recall was it was mostly the Italian press who hounded Pantani? Back then he was no great villain in my country (Australia).

There should be a thread where we can discuss Marco Pantani openly rather than sidetracking the Pogacar / Gianetti thread? I’ll try to find if I get time unless someone else can chime in.

Ah, it's the Accidental Death of a Cyclist documentary from 2014. It's quite good but also really sad.