Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Nick2413]

Just to be inquisitive: who are "they"? I haven't spent much time in the hollows of speculation.

UCI (and UAE). It’s possible it’s purely a lone wolf situation but seems impossible for the UCI not to be involved.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

He could have started Avenir in 2020.

Yes, but you seem to have gotten junior and U23 mixed up

But of course when someone podiums their first GT at only 20 years of age, you know you're dealing with a special case. Andy Schleck was a year older when he did it in the 2007 Giro, but then had to wait another 2 years to become a leader in the Tour de France, but apart from that their developments were not that different during their first few years at the highest level. However A. Schleck ultimately hit a ceiling, due to a few reasons, while Pogačar might not have done that yet after six pro seasons.

 

[masking_agent]

Walsh had a personal vendetta against Armstrong, it was nothing to do with an anti doping crusade as events since then have corroborated.

that is not entirely correct. After the '99 mountain stage, he started asking questions. The back and forth shots from Armstrong is what made it seem like a personal vendetta. But he was still writing about other sports as well.

 

[masking_agent]

Blood manipulation doesn’t necessarily require “substances”. Most likely is the UCI are looking the other way as they did with Armstrong although I even struggle with that - why, what is the business case for that? Another possibility is Gianetti has taken blood manipulation to another level. That is where oil money might come into play. But substances can be detected if not immediately then certainly retrospectively. Even substances that disappear from the bloodstream can leave markers which risk detection in retrospective testing. A new substance is about as likely as motor doping IMO.

I also think he is on undetectable drugs from the veterinarian world and also using a motor.

 

[ppanther92]

Yes, but you seem to have gotten junior and U23 mixed up

But of course when someone podiums their first GT at only 20 years of age, you know you're dealing with a special case. Andy Schleck was a year older when he did it in the 2007 Giro, but then had to wait another 2 years to become a leader in the Tour de France, but apart from that their developments were not that different during their first few years at the highest level. However A. Schleck ultimately hit a ceiling, due to a few reasons, while Pogačar might not have done that yet after six pro seasons.

Ok, yes, true, I should have written U23. Just saying some (or actually a lot) riders with 22 are on the U23 calendar and Pogacar podiumed a GT with 20. And that alone is already extremely rare.

 

[masking_agent]

I want to know how long before other riders start calling him out after getting demolished.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

not only demolishing the normies now. He's now also demolishing the supers like Evenepoel, VDP and Vingegaard this season.

RIP.

 

[Salvarani]

I think his most remarkable showings were the Tour of Slovenia 2017 and 2018 before Avenir, dropping seasoned WT climbers as a child (google photos from those years, he certainly was no early bloomer in bodily development).

And he obviously was still a junior technically when finished the Vuelta on podium and won his first TdF. But no sense to keep in the junior ranks if you are already that good.

So considering his body development being rather on the late side, and him cutting junior career shorter than others (Mäder, Vlasov, Almeida, Dunbar were all 20-22 in his Avenir win, so older) since he was already very good, I think its safe to say that he was a very good prospect.

Predicting what he does now, was impossible though. But I already made the argument here once - it would have been even impossible to predict that Merckx would be Merckx only on junior results. At 19 (1964) and 20 (1965), he had some good results but also nothing indicating that he would become what he did.

Good post.

 

[Salvarani]

I want to know how long before other riders start calling him out after getting demolished.

It would be the end of them.

They are all saying he is the GOAT.

 

[Blobs]

Sure, so why did they let him be become their main attraction? Way back when this thread started was the time to ask that question - 4 years ago. And the whole sport didn’t collapse with Armstrong’s demise.

Obviously it would be good for the sport to have a young charismatic superstar, and they couldn't look into the future and predict what he would do four years later, although him working with Giannetti should have been a clue. It seems like Pog had just grown "too big to fail", and they just said "*** it" and went all in. I'm sure any shady results in testing can be sorted out with some nice big oil money "donations" to the UCI.

Edit: Armstrong was only brought down after he retired. If he had been busted in his Tour reign, that would have been a different story.

well that was weird heated discussion between Pog's tech and commissaire who wanted to take Pog's bike when he was celebrating with Urska - it was just a brief moment of drone/heli shot but it did seemed weird. but can't see it possible that the uci will be so stupid to not check the bike he actually rode. that would be next level stupidity or ridiculous level of corruption.

It certainly looked odd and if they really refused to let them inspect the bike then that should be an instant disqualification. Maybe that was also sorted with a "donation".

 

[Barkintheeye]

I'm very curious on how Wisma is going to respond to Pog's and UAE's TDD* of everyone at this year's Tour. Cannot imagine that the strategy is just going to be "trodding on" or "Z2/heat/cadence/structured/motor pacing"-training. The arms race will continue until there's a major blow up just as with Landis in 2006.


*Total Demolition and Destruction

 

[Nick2413]

well that was weird heated discussion between Pog's tech and commissaire who wanted to take Pog's bike when he was celebrating with Urska - it was just a brief moment of drone/heli shot but it did seemed weird. but can't see it possible that the uci will be so stupid to not check the bike he actually rode. that would be next level stupidity or ridiculous level of corruption.

Just rewatched, that definitely looked shady.

 

[Oldermanish]

UCI (and UAE). It’s possible it’s purely a lone wolf situation but seems impossible for the UCI not to be involved.

While I know nothing specific the UCI being in bed with a rider/team was exposed during Armstrong's "reign of fraud".
That said; UAE and several other countries are deeply vested in sportswashing on all levels without concern for getting caught. David Lappartient is running for the really big prize and one always, always involved in shady kickbacks and profiteering: IOC President.
Considering that interest it would not be a great career move for him to wreck the UCI, no?

 

[memyselfandI]

I fear that's exactly the scenario that's being played here. UAE has the UCI in their pocket. They don't have the IOC in their pocket (yet) so Pogacar decided not to race the olympics although it was almost a sure win in his current shape.

There is also a motive: UAE being desperate to win the TdF again beating their nemesis JV. We know how eager they were to be first on the world ranking last year to have at least some consolation.

Maybe powers behind UAE are playing long game here to get the IOC in their pocket via Lappartient.

 

[Nick2413]

While I know nothing specific the UCI being in bed with a rider/team was exposed during Armstrong's "reign of fraud".
That said; UAE and several other countries are deeply vested in sportswashing on all levels without concern for getting caught. David Lappartient is running for the really big prize and one always, always involved in shady kickbacks and profiteering: IOC President.
Considering that interest it would not be a great career move for him to wreck the UCI, no?

I doubt anyone will be caught any time soon but frankly demonstrating a willingness to be corrupt is probably a prerequisite for the IOC president job in all honesty.

 

[Cookster15]

Where are the Paul Kimmages and David Walshes of today's journalism? It's shocking.

Good question. I think journalism is about shorter media cycles and pumping out new stories. Investigative journalism is on the wane. The return on investment isn't high enough. So maybe Moose was onto something. But if so, what about journalists who work for government owned media outlets?

 

[Gratemans]

I think journalism is about shorter media cycles and pumping out new stories. Investigative journalism is on the wane. The return on investment isn't high enough

You hit the nail on the head there.
A lot of editors and journalists have been warning about this for years now. Investigative journalism costs a lot of time and money for little monetary return, but it's one of the most important things in a democracy. Sadly a lot of people don't realise how dire the situation is, and how utterly important investigative journalism is.
By now, I'm not even talking about cycling, because there are a lot more important things those journalists could focus on. So by now this rant is completely off-topic. My apologies

 

[Cookster15]

This is nonsense. In Riccò's neo pro-season, he was competitive in punchy finishes against some of the best puncheurs in the world and showed some unbelievable speed in the sprints. He beat Bettini in Coppi e Bartali. In Tirreno, he finished third twice behind superstars like Freire, Astarloa, and Petacchi. In California, he finished second on a stage only beaten by Olaf Pollack. He finished that season off by placing fifth in Giro dell'Emilia, only 15 seconds down on Rebellin and Di Luca. And this was his first season as a pro.

In his second season, he finished sixth in the Giro and was competitive against Rebellin, Di Luca, and El Bala in the Ardennes. It's just absolutely not true that Riccò was "nothing special." Riccò didn't appear out of nowhere in 2008, he was really great out of the gates as a pro much like, well, Pogi.

Perhaps my recollection isn't the best, but I am certain Cadel Evans didn't see Ricco as a threat back then. When was Ricco a GC threat in a grand tour before the 2008 TdF - long climbs and TT? And we know by the almost shambolic way Ricco disappeared from the sport that he only achieved those results you list thanks to doping. Have some talent, dope, be a professional cyclist. This was the simplistic way Ricco saw the cycling pool he swam in. IMO there are additional variables which determine success.

 

[Oldermanish]

I doubt anyone will be caught any time soon but frankly demonstrating a willingness to be corrupt is probably a prerequisite for the IOC president job in all honesty.

Absolutely. The Commitee shares in the spoils like any Mob. They revere the ability to separate countries and sponsors from huge loads of cash and exorbitant travel perks.
Then they turn a cheek when the Olympics Tri is conducted in a hepatitis canal called the Seine.

 

[pastronef]

Think it's only common sense that if he is clean and so amazing... He'd have left UAE after his first tour win. Young riders can be forgiven to join such a team, as they need a contract. A bonafide Tour winner that is clean can't.

Just that tells me he is not clean. As no sane clean rider would stay there (and even sign a new contract).

what? FORGIVEN? who are we to forgive a rider or not?
I've come to learn that athletes INSIDE the sport do not think like us, do not behave like WE want them to, do not weight their priorities like we do. "he'd have left UAE". that's veeery delusional. really. pro cycling is not fair, is not good vs bad. it a pro sport without the nuance we'd wish as fans. we can imagine, paint a rider as we wish, but it's a cut-throat sport and they ALL know what they are doing

 

[pastronef]

The scandalous thing is that the journos are so passive. Gianetti-Matxin are running the show and all we hear are crickets. Where are the Paul Kimmages and David Walshes of today's journalism? It's shocking.

Pog's not British, Paul doesn't care

 

[repoman]

It would be the end of them.

They are all saying he is the GOAT.

How can you have gotten that from MvDP interview if you are not a rabid fanboi? It was pretty clear MvDP was conspicuously biting his tongue.

 

[repoman]

Can we then agree on some undeniable facts? So if Pogačar is the "greatest" rider to ever race a bike, then the "greatest" victory in a cycling race ever is, of course, the 17th stage of the Tour de France in 2006, when Floyd Landis launched a 120km solo attack and won the stage with five categorized climbs by almost six minutes ...

Am I right...?!

It was 5:42 and he gained over half that time by out descending everyone else. So here is one of the legendary gigadoped performances and it's still no where near the sort of ridiculousness we have seen from Pogacar this year.

 

[snipeheem]

The best and funniest part od this thread is that he never gonna be caught and all of you knows this. We can talk here etc how crazy he is etc but i believe he that he is never will be caught like Bolt/Phelps and the other Goats of sport

 

[Cookster15]

No way, especially when they always had more money than everyone.

It certainly helps but I don’t think oil money is the only issue. How did Visma beat UAE at the Tour? More likely it’s about return on investment. Not sure about elsewhere but in my country (Australia) Emirates airlines have become much bigger in the last few years - both passenger and freight markets. They were almost unheard of before 2012. As someone replied to me earlier, you are the Emirates marketing dept, you have a choice of buying a football team from a major European league or buying a relatively cheap professional cycling team to spread your brand around the world. Cycling with the global reach of the Tour de France seems like a great option. But for this to happen they needed a rider who had the potential to deliver the results. Pogacar is the one.