Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Extinction]

yeah, i am for sure in the minority, right

Nope, just try not to find onerself among the ranks of the insane.

 

[CleanCiclismo]

I get what you're saying. But it well accepted that football gets a clear pass at doping. As does a lot of other sports. Footballers get ridiculous money. Cyclists a decent domestique will get 6 figures, but others? Its about keeping the balance in the peloton.

I would argue that the more money that there is in the sport, the less focus is on catching dopers. Just look at Sinner. If some cyclist failed his test twice he would have been banned twice over. But he's still playing and it looks like nothing will happen despite the WADA threats. Another factor which was already posted in the thread is, that the more popular aka "the face of the sport" an athlete is the more leeway they will get. Bolt is an excellent example. Everyone around him (competitors and those who were as fast as him in the past) have been caught doping. And yet he outsprinted them on fish and chips diet. Bolt brought in a lot of money to the athletics federation, he made the sport popular. You can argue Pogi is the getting there. He is no Armstrong, he's actually liked by everyone. Look at the start and all the kids who want his autograph as well as boomers. I've even seen a Belgian fan club called PogiBoys or something like it. It's a Pogimania everywhere. If he gets caught, the sport shuts down.

 

[Cookster15]

Any bets on how Lombardia goes in a couple days?

I know you are being facetious but current odds were posted in PRR. Its a British site so that probaby explains why Pidcock is 2nd favorite.

Pogacar: 1.22
Pidcock: 15
Evenepoel: 15

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But I am genuinely curious as to why his popularity? Pogacar does not yet have the public awareness outside of cycling that Armstrong had. So I think this diminishes the theory he is too big to fall.

He is no Armstrong, he's actually liked by everyone.

 

[Cookster15]

It's a Pogimania everywhere. If he gets caught, the sport shuts down.

Well, unlike the cancer survivor Armstrong, few outside of cycling and Europe know who Pogacar is. Did the sport shut down when Armstrong was brought down? What might shut down the sport is the proven use of motors in the peloton.

 

[Extinction]

I know you are being facetious but current odds were posted in PRR. Its a British site so that probaby explains why Pidcock is 2nd favorite.

Pogacar: 1.22
Pidcock: 15
Evenepoel: 15

Page 5 - Il Lombardia 2024, one day monument, October 12, farewell to Domenico Pozzovivo

Page 5 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.

forum.cyclingnews.com

But I am genuinely curious as to why his popularity? Pogacar does not yet have the public awareness outside of cycling that Armstrong had. So I think this diminishes the theory he is too big to fall.

I think you should consider that America no longer has a hero to watch, but it also means if Pogacar falls the sport is in deep trouble. Who would have faith in it in the future?

 

[Tim Cahill]

I've been watching 25 years and the sport's allegedly been 'finished' about 6 or 7 times now. Cycling will be fine, it's cyclists I fear for.

Lance was one of the most recognisable and marketable athletes of his day full stop, in a way it's lucky for us that nobody in the current peloton can even come close to matching his aura (despite there being more well-rounded cyclists around), and this is from someone who hated the ****er, because one of them getting done nowadays wouldn't have the same effect. The entire top 10 of the TDF could get popped with needles up their arse and it wouldn't get the same coverage.

Off topic a little but I was watching a bit of the 2000s Tour yesterday and it was clear how much the lack of helmets added to the spectacle, you could really see the psychosis and determination of Armstrong, the freckled hollow eyes of Ulle, the sense of fury in Elephantino. It really breathed a kind of character into the racers that I find more difficult to identify nowadays. The aesthetic really was a huge part of Armstrong's image, I was never an advocate for just letting them choose because cyclists are a danger to themselves, but letting us see the athletes faces properly on final summit finishes would've been a better compromise. Come on netflix guys do something good for once.

 

[Froome]

I've been watching 25 years and the sport's allegedly been 'finished' about 6 or 7 times now. Cycling will be fine, it's cyclists I fear for.

Lance was one of the most recognisable and marketable athletes of his day full stop, in a way it's lucky for us that nobody in the current peloton can even come close to matching his aura (despite there being more well-rounded cyclists around), and this is from someone who hated the ****er, because one of them getting done nowadays wouldn't have the same effect. The entire top 10 of the TDF could get popped with needles up their arse and it wouldn't get the same coverage.

Off topic a little but I was watching a bit of the 2000s Tour yesterday and it was clear how much the lack of helmets added to the spectacle, you could really see the psychosis and determination of Armstrong, the freckled hollow eyes of Ulle, the sense of fury in Elephantino. It really breathed a kind of character into the racers that I find more difficult to identify nowadays. The aesthetic really was a huge part of Armstrong's image, I was never an advocate for just letting them choose because cyclists are a danger to themselves, but letting us see the athletes faces properly on final summit finishes would've been a better compromise. Come on netflix guys do something good for once.

We just need a new Walsh to go after this fraud.

 

[Nick2413]

If Pog gets caught, especially with a motor, they will find a way to scapegoat someone else. He is not going down. It will be some combination of he only did it one time unknowingly and all the other races were clean, there was a motor in his burrito etc etc. Finger pointing, evidence planting, the whole Lance saga minus the hate-ability. And the masses will believe it.

 

[YavorD]

I have very little doubt that Pogacar is using something. You don't have such a jump of performances if you're already (one of) the best.
But he isn't going down even if they catch him.
He is too popular and too liked for something to come out.
Maybe Ayuso though (😅) could reveal a secret. In a way be to Pogacar what Landis was to Armstrong.

 

[E_F_]

the lack of helmets added to the spectacle

I'd think the shades are more to blame than the helmets here..?

 

[peterfin]

If Pog gets caught, especially with a motor, they will find a way to scapegoat someone else. He is not going down. It will be some combination of he only did it one time unknowingly and all the other races were clean, there was a motor in his burrito etc etc. Finger pointing, evidence planting, the whole Lance saga minus the hate-ability. And the masses will believe it.

I think it would be huge. Using a motor is the ultimate form of cheating. It's visible for anyone. You cannot hide it behind a curtain of medical reasons and other explanations. Immediately the question will be when it started and who is using it. We may never know. All trust would be gone, especially in our current top pro's, the top teams and the institutions.

 

[Tricycle Rider]

If Pog gets caught, especially with a motor, they will find a way to scapegoat someone else. He is not going down. It will be some combination of he only did it one time unknowingly and all the other races were clean, there was a motor in his burrito etc etc. Finger pointing, evidence planting, the whole Lance saga minus the hate-ability. And the masses will believe it.

I don't think this is plausible, I mean, wouldn't Pog have to at least have some sort of knowledge as to how to operate the motor?

Agree the Pog supporters would probably still find an excuse, even if he was found to be motorized.

 

[Casual cyclist]

I think it would be huge. Using a motor is the ultimate form of cheating. It's visible for anyone. You cannot hide it behind a curtain of medical reasons and other explanations. Immediately the question will be when it started and who is using it. We may never know. All trust would be gone, especially in our current top pro's, the top teams and the institutions.

I agree. If he is "caught", like Lancy, it won't be for motor usage... , just like his non-aero hunched on the bike "coal miner" position predecessor (and a sudden TT Ulrich beating prodigy regardless) Lancy.

 

[Nick2413]

I don't think this is plausible, I mean, wouldn't Pog have to at least have some sort of knowledge as to how to operate the motor?

Agree the Pog supporters would probably still find an excuse, even if he was found to be motorized.

I was reading the first few pages of the motor doping thread which started 8 years ago, and already with the first incident there was a tremendous amount of confusion and throwing around blame to anyone but the rider for something so cut and dry on the surface. Now, in that case the lady was quite young and she certainly wasn’t the mastermind behind it all, but there’s no doubt they’d try to spin it any way they can if it actually happened to a rider like Pogacar. I doubt it will happen, but they will have contingencies for any possible doping or motor doping slip-up.

 

[Gratemans]

I think it would be huge. Using a motor is the ultimate form of cheating. It's visible for anyone. You cannot hide it behind a curtain of medical reasons and other explanations. Immediately the question will be when it started and who is using it. We may never know. All trust would be gone, especially in our current top pro's, the top teams and the institutions.

But, and I realise this might very well be idle hope, would the UCI not do everything in its power to prevent at least moto doping? Because while medical doping might not destroy the sport (it never really has before, after all) I really believe motor doping very well could.

Look, I think a lot of riders are using some sort of performance enhancing method at the moment. It could even be something yet unknown by WADA and the other agencies and therefor not yet strictly forbidden. But riders using medical methods never really stopped me from enjoying the sport. I was a fan of Vinokourov for example But motors? That would absolutely kill it for me.

And I can't for the life of me understand how an athlete doing that wouldn't be absolutely disgusted with himself. I'm not ready to believe Pog and Vingo are going that far.

 

[Casual cyclist]

But, and I realise this might very well be idle hope, would the UCI not do everything in its power to prevent at least moto doping? Because while medical doping might not destroy the sport (it never really has before, after all) I really believe motor doping very well could.

Look, I think a lot of riders are using some sort of performance enhancing method at the moment. It could even be something yet unknown by WADA and the other agencies and therefor not yet strictly forbidden. But riders using medical methods never really stopped me from enjoying the sport. I was a fan of Vinokourov for example But motors? That would absolutely kill it for me.

And I can't for the life of me understand how an athlete doing that wouldn't be absolutely disgusted with himself. I'm not ready to believe Pog and Vingo are going that far.

As Nick2413 said, they will have contingencies for any possible mix-up. At the level of monopolization achieved by now, chances of motor doping being seriously exposed are equal to zero. In an unlikely case of, say, some disgruntled insider starting to talk, that info will not be given any further confirmation and will be waved away as "lunacy" with a good deal of ha-ha-ha accompanying that. As dr. Goebbels famously said, a lie has be big and blatant to be easily believed. As to being disgusted, some people's conscience is a lot more flexible than, for instance, laws of biology. And a good paycheck tends to make it more flexible still.

 

[Cookster15]

We just need a new Walsh to go after this fraud.

We need a Walsh to expose the arms race. That means Visma as well.

 

[Oldermanish]

I was reading the first few pages of the motor doping thread which started 8 years ago, and already with the first incident there was a tremendous amount of confusion and throwing around blame to anyone but the rider for something so cut and dry on the surface. Now, in that case the lady was quite young and she certainly wasn’t the mastermind behind it all, but there’s no doubt they’d try to spin it any way they can if it actually happened to a rider like Pogacar. I doubt it will happen, but they will have contingencies for any possible doping or motor doping slip-up.

The gal was caught dead-cold cheating with a motorized CX bike. No confusion about how that operated. There have been Masters racers caught as well and the evidence usually comes from others in the race because it is visibly obvious. This road had been travelled enough that it's much less likely to not possible compared to emergent levels of "recovery aids".

I keep saying it: this year's major differences may be mostly if not entirely attributable to the injuries suffered by almost every major contender except Pogacar. Sure; he's done some amazing stuff but when Roglic, Remco, WVA are on the ropes from crashes; the rest of the peloton and teams don't have a clue how to race. Geraint in the Giro? Did he remotely look seriously involved? Remco's Olympic RR was exactly what you saw; a tactical and opportunistic show of strength. We haven's seen any speculation on motor use for that or the TT win, have we?
Give it to next season when everyone is on a healthy reset and see if the differences are as dramatic.

 

[Nick2413]

The gal was caught dead-cold cheating with a motorized CX bike. No confusion about how that operated. There have been Masters racers caught as well and the evidence usually comes from others in the race because it is visibly obvious. This road had been travelled enough that it's much less likely to not possible compared to emergent levels of "recovery aids".

I keep saying it: this year's major differences may be mostly if not entirely attributable to the injuries suffered by almost every major contender except Pogacar. Sure; he's done some amazing stuff but when Roglic, Remco, WVA are on the ropes from crashes; the rest of the peloton and teams don't have a clue how to race. Geraint in the Giro? Did he remotely look seriously involved? Remco's Olympic RR was exactly what you saw; a tactical and opportunistic show of strength. We haven's seen any speculation on motor use for that or the TT win, have we?
Give it to next season when everyone is on a healthy reset and see if the differences are as dramatic.

I may be in the minority but having a couple other clowns at the carnival wouldn’t really do anything for me. The absurdity of what we’re witnessing is the bigger problem and makes it hard to take anything remotely seriously.

 

[MortiroloForever]

It's not what he won but how he did it. I mean, it's understandable to have a very succesfull season where a cyclist can win Giro, Tour, Lieja, World Champs, Catalunya and Strade, but he hadn't any opposition with his rivals having the best performances of their lifes in many cases (that was what Vingegaard said on Plateau de Beille). He didn't have any bad day all season long and nobody could react to any of his attacks. He was absolutely unstoppable and I didn't see anything like that in my life as a cycling fan.

It's also hard to understand to me how a rider who is a "supertop" is capable to increase his level again and make a step ahead bigger than which he did at 20 years, considering he was a top-top level and therefore the increasing margins should be lower.

I'm not talking as a Remco or Jonas fan. To be honest I'm not fan of any rider, I love cycling and I love the competition and it hurts me to see things like what we are seeing these years.

 

[Bolder]

The gal was caught dead-cold cheating with a motorized CX bike. No confusion about how that operated. There have been Masters racers caught as well and the evidence usually comes from others in the race because it is visibly obvious. This road had been travelled enough that it's much less likely to not possible compared to emergent levels of "recovery aids".

I keep saying it: this year's major differences may be mostly if not entirely attributable to the injuries suffered by almost every major contender except Pogacar. Sure; he's done some amazing stuff but when Roglic, Remco, WVA are on the ropes from crashes; the rest of the peloton and teams don't have a clue how to race. Geraint in the Giro? Did he remotely look seriously involved? Remco's Olympic RR was exactly what you saw; a tactical and opportunistic show of strength. We haven's seen any speculation on motor use for that or the TT win, have we?
Give it to next season when everyone is on a healthy reset and see if the differences are as dramatic.

Good point. i had downplayed Pog's own injury in 2023 but looking back I think that maybe is a big part of the reason he was demolished by Vingegaard in the Tour (which, let's not forget, was a least comparable time-wise to him returning the favor this year).

i don't quite understand the "we're racing for second" mentality that seems to settle over the peloton after an attaque du Pogi. I had always read stories of teams cooperating, but I can't recall anyone really working together to bring back Pog this year, the WCRR probably being the most egregious example of noncooperation.

 

[Casual cyclist]

Just saw it on cyclingnews: Pidcock is going to miss Lombardia. Made me recall his comment about racing taking place "at two speeds" (or something of this sort) after that 80 k solo in this year's Strade. Looks like he doesn't quite enjoy the role of an auguste clown in the current circus. Smart kid.

 

[hrotha]

Just saw it on cyclingnews: Pidcock is going to miss Lombardia. Made me recall his comment about racing taking place "at two speeds" (or something of this sort) after that 80 k solo in this year's Strade. Looks like he doesn't quite enjoy the role of an auguste clown in the current circus. Smart kid.

Kinda reading a lot into it aren't you

 

[E_F_]

Kinda reading a lot into it aren't you

Yeah, but it might be true. It's worth noting, I think.

edit: Well, it isn't. He was deselected by the team.

 

[Nick2413]

The front page dared post an article asking if he’s clean. It’s just funny that even when they ask questions they frame it in a way to make the riders look innocent.