Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Cookster15]

There can be some similar questions there as well, like, for example, Vingo's TT in 2023 TDF. But the case of Poggie and UAE is much more pure, as many have noted.

There is nothing more "pure" than the 2023 stage 16 TT. Been watching the sport since the EPO era. Vingo's TT in 2023 TDF was a 98 second beating of Pogacar in just 32 minutes of riding - from a 58kg climber. Best TT ever in the words of Tom Dumoulin - do you not wonder why Vingegaard has never repeated such a performance before or since? Craziest performance I have ever seen. My best explanation for this isn't motors but an arms race.

Yes whataboutism is unavoidable as Vingegaard is the best benchmark we have. And like I replied to Stablo, if not for the motor talk I wouldn't have bothered.

 

[Cookster15]

Yet you aren't receptive to counter-arguments or interested in backing up your arguments when questioned.

Not true. The entire reason I chimed in today was you guys have not been receptive to backing up your arguments on Pog motor doping. You make claims on motor doping unchallenged and a degree of group-think takes hold with several posters who don't visit any other thread. If you have backed these up and I missed it then it should not be difficult to repost? If you can't then that sounds like obfuscation to me. Referring to "petro dollars" isn't an argument - it belongs in the Lee Harvey Oswald didn't do it category.

The official extended highlights of stage 20 in the Tour very clearly shows Pogacar suffering after the finish of the previous day's stage to Isola 2000. Can't post here as playback on other websites has been disabled by the video owner. If you can find that video you will see Pogacar is obviously suffering at 14 to 21 seconds.

 

[Stablo]

The stage 16 TT was still one 32 minutes performance like you said. Yes Jonas is propably a good responder too and yes undoubtly has a good program too. Poggie had one very suspicious TT too in 2020. Last years Tours final stage looked nice too. That isn't the point, but it still is that specially last year that bs happened all but one race he entered. He looked a bit tired after one of those efforts in the end of super dominating his second! Grand Tour of the year, winning stages left and right. For me it's beyond obvious he has/had smth better than the others, his never on that level above everyone else all season long purely talent wise and with same methods than his competition. Still it's that with the controversy after the finnish of his history breaking solo(yet again) at WC, that made me think it's possible theres a small electric assistance helping. If we look like the last 35 years of cycling, nothing that any super talent has done is even in the same ballpark than Poggies last season. And it's not because poggie is so much more talented than anyone has been in cycling since 1990. Im also not saying he surely has electric assistance, but there are many points also indicating that it's not impossible and frankly would explain a lot of what we saw. Sadly I think we will never know for sure what it was, but the season was the most outrageous example of not normal that at least I have ever witnessed. IMHO Pretty simple after all.

 

[Cookster15]

He had something better than the others in 2024 - and yet Vinge still beat him on stage 11. But at least one of the others had something better in 2022 and 2023. An arms race.

Stage 16 of the 2023 Tour was the most outrageous example of not normal that I have ever witnessed. Yes worse than LPdBF in 2020.

 

[Stablo]

He had something better than the others in 2024 - and yet Vinge still beat him on stage 11. But at least one of the others had something better in 2022 and 2023. An arms race.

Stage 16 of the 2023 Tour was the most outrageous example of not normal that I have ever witnessed. Yes worse than LPdBF in 2020.

You have the right to have that opinion. For me a 32mins effort no matter how crazy, never ever beats all year long record breaking dominance and 98% of the time not even looking like really pushing. Sometimes it looked like someone playing Tennis or any sport with the wrong hand and still easily beating everyone😅okey im done for tonight, the opinions and how we see the level are different so no need to argue more.

 

[E_F_]

The entire reason I chimed in today was you guys have not been receptive to backing up your arguments on Pog motor doping. You make claims on motor doping unchallenged and a degree of group-think takes hold with several posters who don't visit any other thread

I have been receptive to counter-arguments, and I prefer to have my so called "claims" challenged. I frequently participate in other threads. I often disagree with arguments put forward here to support the case for motor-doping, so...

If you have backed these up and I missed it then it should not be difficult to repost. I you can't then that sounds like obfuscation to me.

As I wrote earlier, I believe we have been through this process of you saying I'm talking complete nonsense, me explaining myself, you seemingly understanding me, and you then later returning with the exact same notion that I'm talking complete nonsense. It's not my fault if you can't remember that, and I don't care to go back and copy/paste my counter-arguments every time you decide to talk about conspiracy theories and "pub-tests".

Referring to "petro dollars" isn't an argument

Of course the team being owned by and named after the United Arab Emirates can be used to argue that the the team might have more leverage with the UCI and have access to more sophisticated technology.

it belongs in the Lee Harvey Oswald didn't do it category.

That equivalency doesn't make any sense to me. Thankfully there are people who will go to great lengths to explain all kinds of issues regarding that case. I wish more people would do that with motor-doping.

The extended highlights of stage 20 in the Tour very clearly shows Pogacar suffering after the finish of the previous day's stage to Isola 2000

That does not "very clearly" show "suffering". My man is winded right after a hitherto unheard of bike-ride. Nowhere near what I'd expect. He isn't literally "fresh as a daisy" and I guess when you aren't interested in hearing people out, then simply noticing hyperbole counts as an argument.

 

[E_F_]

Stage 16 of the 2023 Tour was the most outrageous example of not normal that I have ever witnessed.

I 100% agree that it would be pretty much impossible for my suspicions about Pogacar and motor-doping to true and for Vingegaard not to have used a motor on that stage. That stage didn't make any sense whatsoever.

 

[Cookster15]

I have been receptive to counter-arguments, and I prefer to have my so called "claims" challenged. I frequently participate in other threads. I often disagree with arguments put forward here to support the case for motor-doping, so...

As I wrote earlier, I believe we have been through this process of you saying I'm talking complete nonsense, me explaining myself, you seemingly understanding me, and you then later returning with the exact same notion that I'm talking complete nonsense. It's not my fault if you can't remember that, and I don't care to go back and copy/paste my counter-arguments every time you decide to talk about conspiracy theories and "pub-tests".

Of course the team being owned by and named after the United Arab Emirates can be used to argue that the the team might have more leverage with the UCI and have access to more sophisticated technology.

That equivalency doesn't make any sense to me. Thankfully there are people who will go to great lengths to explain all kinds of issues regarding that case. I wish more people would do that with motor-doping.

That does not "very clearly" show "suffering". My man is winded right after a hitherto unheard of bike-ride. Nowhere near what I'd expect. He isn't literally "fresh as a daisy" and I guess when you aren't interested in hearing people out, then simply noticing hyperbole counts as an argument.

You are not receptive and this reply just reinforces my point. Facts please. A bunch of strawman theories, opinions, obfuscation or simply irrelevant.

 

[Gratemans]

You are not receptive and this reply just reinforces my point. Facts please. A bunch of strawman theories, opinions, obfuscation or simply irrelevant.

I understand what you're saying, but how the hell can we, as sideline supporters be expected to deliver any evidence of anything?
We need a Walsh. We need journalists that aren't afraid of their jobs. (And believe you me, they were scarce even in the Armstrong era). And now, those investigative journalists just don't exist anymore, they haven't for years. The media landscape has changed for the worse, where a journalist exposing something like this would just destroy his own job. With that in mind, I'm not prepared to rule out any (and yes, I mean any) wrong-doing.

 

[Cookster15]

I understand what you're saying, but how the hell can we, as sideline supporters be expected to deliver any evidence of anything?
We need a Walsh. We need journalists that aren't afraid of their jobs. (And believe you me, they were scarce even in the Armstrong era). And now, those investigative journalists just don't exist anymore, they haven't for years. The media landscape has changed for the worse, where a journalist exposing something like this would just destroy his own job. With that in mind, I'm not prepared to rule out any (and yes, I mean any) wrong-doing.

I totally agree with the media landscape. Seems like it is the same in your country as mine. But if motors were possible I'd expect at least rumors from rival teams and riders. For example, I think back in 2012 or 2013 Cadel Evans complained about "skinny climbers who could TT" - a clear reference to the rise of Sky. I think the lack of a smoking gun on motor use also explains the lack of journalist interest. Most journalists will earn good money for less work by doing copy and paste of known public information.

Who knows maybe an investigative Walsh comes out of the woodwork who wants to make a name for themselves .

 

[E_F_]

Facts please.

I can't help you there!

We know cycling teams have always cheated. We know that the organizers of cycling have always been soft on cheating. We know that very discrete motors for racing bikes exist. We are seeing some very effortless-looking accelerations and riding. As I keep, and keep repeating - we are seeing records set by riders free to increase their hematocrit as far as humanly possible (as far as they dared, basically), being not just broken, but blown out of the water - with a very low level of perceptible pain or excertion. There have been murmurings concerning motors from the peloton, which is known for its code of silence. When asked about motors Pogacar said some obvious BS about e-bikes being massive (no one was asking him about regular e-bikes, and he simply must have known that). The UCI have been very slow to set up something an on paper reasonable bike-testing regimen. And yes the team which Pogacar rides for is owned and sponsored by an insanely rich and corrupt monarchy, which is doing sportswashing on a massive scale. And this is a very, very strong team, even discounting the strongest rider in the world by far.

Does any of this add up to anything resembling a slam dunk case. Absolutely not. But is it a reason to suspect, that there might be something to it. I think it is. I'm not in any way shape or form convinced that Pogacar is motor-doping. Far from it. I just don't see why I should be convinced that there isn't. An absense of facts doesn't prove anything. I believe that might be impossible, but I'd have to ask a philospher.

 

[SHAD0W93]

He had something better than the others in 2024 - and yet Vinge still beat him on stage 11. But at least one of the others had something better in 2022 and 2023. An arms race.

Stage 16 of the 2023 Tour was the most outrageous example of not normal that I have ever witnessed. Yes worse than LPdBF in 2020.

I 100% agree that it would be pretty much impossible for my suspicions about Pogacar and motor-doping to true and for Vingegaard not to have used a motor on that stage. That stage didn't make any sense whatsoever.

I think what gives even more evidence to the motor for Vingegaard was the way his knees kept getting pushed out like he was going too fast for the gearing on the bike causing his legs to freely spin. I don’t know if that’s an issue for road bikes, but I’ve had that happen on multiple mountain bikes if I was going too fast on a downhill.

 

[E_F_]

There are a lot of things, that make it less likely for there to be motor-doping, some of which I have learned on this very forum.

The testing, which the UCI claim to do. Limitations on where a motor could be concealed. For instance ruling out the wheels. The cameras on the races making secret bike swaps very difficult. I can still think of openings for motor-doping despite of these reasons though, and to be perfectly honest I think it's fun trying to get a clearer picture of how it could and couldn't be done.

 

[E_F_]

I think what gives even more evidence to the motor for Vingegaard was the way his knees kept getting pushed out like he was going too fast for the gearing on the bike causing his legs to freely spin. I don’t know if that’s an issue for road bikes, but I’ve had that happen on multiple mountain bikes if I was going too fast on a downhill.

As far as I can see from the hightlight he stopped doing that on the uphill, so it doesn't seem to be a case of a weird riding style. And I can think of no reason why he wouldn't be on a heavier gear, when going fast... So I guess they must have miscalculated the gearing? That does seem more likely to be due to an unusual level of power (from a motor) than just sheer stupidity. And it's not like a sudden increase in hematocrit would make his legs stronger.

Also: The fact that he didn't believe his own watt-numbers makes absolutely no sense to me. You're in the middle of the Tour my dude, how can you not have done better numbers in training!?

 

[Casual cyclist]

He had something better than the others in 2024 - and yet Vinge still beat him on stage 11. But at least one of the others had something better in 2022 and 2023. An arms race.

Stage 16 of the 2023 Tour was the most outrageous example of not normal that I have ever witnessed. Yes worse than LPdBF in 2020.

This may well be the case. The question is whether nuclear (EM in this case) weapons have entered that race yet. It looks like they have.

 

[Unchained]

Pog is a Tour de l'Avenir winner. he won Algarve 1 month after turning pro.
well, Remco joined forces with Quickstep, not saints either. if these invisible motors are invisible, then both Remco and Pog could use one (they don't ffs)

People don't need evidence in the virtual world.. The motors are unseen, ignored by inspectors.. It is world wide..everyone agrees and is paid...? And his blood and urine ..the same.. Everyone agrees and everyone is paid off and it's seamless.. Since 2018? Not happening. The guy is a freak for sure but his abilities are genetic, not scientific.. And for the sake of equality.. When Pogacar is beat.. and he is..like San Remo..how did they do it? If Pog is the absolute best, how can 2 other riders, completely different organizations, defeat him and the control system? Did Ganna have a motor? Yes or no.. Needs an explanation

 

[Casual cyclist]

I can't help you there! (Response to a request for "facts" -- Cc)

Sometimes it baffles me what some people (especially apologists) call "facts". Usually, the word "fact" is understood to mean something that has taken place in reality -- as opposed to being pure phantasy . In this sense, everything you correctly list just below unequivocally qualifies.

We know cycling teams have always cheated. We know that the organizers of cycling have always been soft on cheating. We know that very discrete motors for racing bikes exist. We are seeing some very effortless-looking accelerations and riding. As I keep, and keep repeating - we are seeing records set by riders free to increase their hematocrit as far as humanly possible (as far as they dared, basically), being not just broken, but blown out of the water - with a very low level of perceptible pain or exertion.

These are all hard facts. To these facts, you could add -- as you have mentioned many times before -- that caught on camera tug-of-war for Poggie's WCRR winning (in the same effortless record breaking style referred to above) bike between a race official and an UAE guardian person which was resolved by what looked like a higher ranked race official. Was it a fact or just a funny role playing episode staged to amuse the spectators? Why would anyone, even if that bike had already been tested (or, rather, "tested"), resist it being tested a few more times? Were they afraid of theft of a historic bike that could be perpetrated by race officials? It is not like being poked by a needle for a second time. Are they so suspicious and frugal due to being underfunded?

There have been murmurings concerning motors from the peloton, which is known for its code of silence.

This too. Lemond, in particular, stated quite positively that "motors have been used in the peloton", without calling names for obvious reasons.

When asked about motors Pogacar said some obvious BS about e-bikes being massive (no one was asking him about regular e-bikes, and he simply must have known that).

One could add the general UAE's hilarious "explanation" of skyrocketing performance as a consequence of "more varied carbohydrate intake". Also, that BS about Poggie's just "beginning to train seriously", doing a bit more in addition to "zone 2" nonsense. Are all these statements facts or what?

The UCI have been very slow to set up something an on paper reasonable bike-testing regimen. And yes the team which Pogacar rides for is owned and sponsored by an insanely rich and corrupt monarchy, which is doing sportswashing on a massive scale.

Here, it would not hurt repeating just who exactly is now in charge for motor-doping chasing at UCI. A dude who previously worked at UAE (and who looks like someone that would happily bend any rule in exchange for personal prosperity -- that is not a fact, by the way, just a hunch),

And this is a very, very strong team, even discounting the strongest rider in the world by far.

Does any of this add up to anything resembling a slam dunk case. Absolutely not.

Not quite sure about a slam dunk. But easily a weakly contested layup, in my view. Just look at the totality of all these facts listed above and add to them the other fact of putting a small motor in a bike being immeasurably easier compared to coming up with a miracle potion allowing a living and breathing organism to behave like an indefatigable energizer bunny.

But is it a reason to suspect, that there might be something to it. I think it is. I'm not in any way shape or form convinced that Pogacar is motor-doping. Far from it. I just don't see why I should be convinced that there isn't. An absense of facts doesn't prove anything. I believe that might be impossible, but I'd have to ask a philospher.

As we have just seen, there is hardly any absence of facts in this case. Unless, as the apologists imply, a fact is equal to a straight admission of guilt on TV by someone directly involved in the affair. But such thing is not required even in criminal justice, for obvious reasons. The truth, in general, is established using the totality of human practice and thus acquired knowledge as a criterion. Let's consider a (slightly stronger) example. Suppose, in a few years, that SpaceX company makes an official announcement of -- after "ironing out" the present problems with their "starship" -- a successful manned landing on Mars (or even Moon) accompanied by the corresponding "footage". Should we call BS right away or wait for an official admission of fraud by Musk meanwhile citing the absence of facts as grounds for not doubting it too strongly?

 

[Unchained]

This too. Lemond, in particular, stated quite positively that "motors have been used in the peloton", without calling names for obvious reasons.

This makes zero sense before, during or after that historical events. So current riders and teams are aware that UAE is using motors but they are choosing to lose, spend millions, lose millions, degrade sponsorship opportunities, assist in success and promotion of UAE for what reason? LeMond didn't speak up before or after races on motor doping for " obvious reasons "? LeMond in middle age can't say who doped and how? What races were won,what races he lost because of motor dopers? Have watched plenty of LeMond and don't think I have heard how many victories, how many years were cut from his career or legacy from motor doping?

Over and over I try to figure out business model for motor dopers and the people who don't and conspire to allow it.. Sort of obvious that non users are getting less of everything, what's in it for them?
It's maybe more as all media has expanded.. Too many stories about drugs, child molesters, drug use, motor doping.. Post behavior confessions about.. I knew it was going on but didn't say anything at the time because..... Millions of reasons \ excuses.. All of it's just to much of a free pass..I knew about it kept silent, and I have no responsibility..
If all these posts are correct, half correct and Pogacar is cheating using motor doping, hundreds if not thousands of people are colluding to stay silent.. Apparently for some common criteria.. I have no idea!!!!

 

[Shakes]

I don't understand cycling nowadays. Everything is power and it is in finite supply. That's why we saw measured riding, trains and accelerations only at the end. That made sense. We also saw differences between classics riders and GC riders.

That's all out of the window. In a field that is more professional you'd expect more specialization. Not less. We now see watts spend early on and continuously. No limits on energy spend and this does not impact the results of these riders negatively, au contraire they win more. More exciting than mountain trains? Mostly. Logical and expected? No.

 

[anti -e-bike]

You are not receptive and this reply just reinforces my point. Facts please. A bunch of strawman theories, opinions, obfuscation or simply irrelevant.

Pogi = the strawman
and vingo also

motorcycle puppets pulled by the sultans of strings

 

[anti -e-bike]

You are right that poggie is way more ridicilous than Pharmastrong. I meant the level of cheating, professionalism in it and the money invested is only rivalled by US Postal. Visma a few years back was close to that too, but still there wasn't one rider winning it all, with performances never seen before and always looking like on a Sunday ride. UAE with Gianetti seems to be head and shoulders above them all.

With the socialmedia I meant, that they have really carefully painted this golden sweetheart boy picture to even lesser the difficult questions and it allows the (blind) people to continue the fanjerking around these extraterrestial performances. In hindsight maybe Ricco would have gotten away with it, if the times would have been different and they would have planned it better image wise. Maybe even sweeping a positive test quitly under the carpet. We also have to remember, that Ricco made these super alien performances only a few times and still eyebrows started to rise right away. Teddy just keeps on doing it over and over again and it's just chapeau, nothing to see here. For what i remember there was a lot more questioning back in the days, now after covid there's very little anything.

I'm still super skeptic about the skipping of olympics too. That Urska explanation is just very lame, he was on monster form and the course really suited him, so you supposedly skip a very likely olympic gold cause your girlfriend wasn't chosen, give me a break. You might never get another chance, four years is a long time even for the monster and the course might be more sprinter friendly next time aswell. So the only explanation that still makes sense to me is, that it was skipped cause UCI can't control the tests in the olympics. Remember also the hustle and drama surrounding teddys bike after the most ridicilous WC performance of the history. Something shady is going on with UCI, their poster boy and all the petrodollars coming from the UAE.

perfect post

spot on top

 

[Divergence]

I watch a lot of cycling as well as cycling related and physiology related studies and I read this thread regularly and I am still quite unsure what is going on. On the one hand all of these performances seem absurd. Like there is no way any of it is panyagua. But here is the problem. Apart from the CO rebreathing there is no smoking gun. Not even a hint as to what might be going on. Let me remind you that it was more or less known in the peloton on the 90s that EPO was being used. At least people in the know knew about it and certainly the drug was there. Nowadays, nothing.
I also struggle with the fact that if Pog has found something spectacular to boost him how come his girlfriend has not won even one race of significance in her career. Surely he would coach her to do that.
In the end it is quite clear that talent wise, which is to say genetically, Pog is the best cyclist ever.
Is he doing a little something on top of that and this combo makes him invulnerable? Quite possibly.
Regarding motor doping there has not been any evidence that motors are being used. Sure, someone comes up with a few seconds during a race where something looks fishy. But at this moment I cannot sayI am inclined to believe motors are being used.

 

[GuntherL1]

I watch a lot of cycling as well as cycling related and physiology related studies and I read this thread regularly and I am still quite unsure what is going on. On the one hand all of these performances seem absurd. Like there is no way any of it is panyagua. But here is the problem. Apart from the CO rebreathing there is no smoking gun. Not even a hint as to what might be going on. Let me remind you that it was more or less known in the peloton on the 90s that EPO was being used. At least people in the know knew about it and certainly the drug was there. Nowadays, nothing.
I also struggle with the fact that if Pog has found something spectacular to boost him how come his girlfriend has not won even one race of significance in her career. Surely he would coach her to do that.
In the end it is quite clear that talent wise, which is to say genetically, Pog is the best cyclist ever.
Is he doing a little something on top of that and this combo makes him invulnerable? Quite possibly.
Regarding motor doping there has not been any evidence that motors are being used. Sure, someone comes up with a few seconds during a race where something looks fishy. But at this moment I cannot sayI am inclined to believe motors are being used.

The best ever since he joined UAE. I've never heard about genetics that improve when you change your environment. His girlfriend is not riding for Gianetti, so that makes sense. For genetic 'talent', I'd look at Evenepoel, MvdP, Sagan, Vidar and Seixas.
Was there a smoking gun with Horner who won the Vuelta against peak Nibali in 2014 at age 42? Gilberts 'miracle' year in 2011? Even Cancelara's bike adventures in 2010 required a shady Youtube video. If we'd have proper journalism, questions would be asked today about the tragic drop of performances of the Visma team or the amazing Alpecin team. At least MvdP is an actual monster talent and he's not winning stage races or Grand Tours, so I'll focus my efforts on Pog and Mauro for the time being.
I don't believe in motor doping either. I do know that Gianetti has improved his cheating throughout the years.
In 1998, his experiments nearly killed him. In 2008, Ricco and Piepoli were caught pretty quickly. It took 8 years to take away Cobo's Vuelta win of 2011. So maybe Pog is the beneficiary of accumulated knowledge.

 

[Casual cyclist]

I watch a lot of cycling as well as cycling related and physiology related studies and I read this thread regularly and I am still quite unsure what is going on. On the one hand all of these performances seem absurd. Like there is no way any of it is panyagua. But here is the problem. Apart from the CO rebreathing there is no smoking gun. Not even a hint as to what might be going on. Let me remind you that it was more or less known in the peloton on the 90s that EPO was being used. At least people in the know knew about it and certainly the drug was there. Nowadays, nothing.
I also struggle with the fact that if Pog has found something spectacular to boost him how come his girlfriend has not won even one race of significance in her career. Surely he would coach her to do that.
In the end it is quite clear that talent wise, which is to say genetically, Pog is the best cyclist ever.

Right there. That should now settle the issue for good. And not just that. According to his coaches, he is also now doing interval training (can you imagine!) and eating porridge with pancakes for carb sources. That surely should give him a huge advantage on top of that sci-fi scale talent.

Is he doing a little something on top of that and this combo makes him invulnerable? Quite possibly.
Regarding motor doping there has not been any evidence that motors are being used. Sure, someone comes up with a few seconds during a race where something looks fishy. But at this moment I cannot sayI am inclined to believe motors are being used.

Yeah, there is that. "A few seconds" as in "the whole season non-stop" of no-sweat smiling moto-speed performances. Also "someone" as in the "the namesake of this very thread".

 

[AmRacer]

Right there. That should now settle the issue for good. And not just that. According to his coaches, he is also now doing interval training (can you imagine!) and eating porridge with pancakes for carb sources. That surely should give him a huge advantage on top of that sci-fi scale talent.

Yeah, there is that. "A few seconds" as in "the whole season non-stop" of no-sweat smiling moto-speed performances. Also "someone" as in the "the namesake of this very thread".

Moto malfunctioning last Saturday.