Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Cookster15]

A lot seem to have forgotten what happened when Pogacar won the 2021 Tour. A seated attack on stage 8.

 

[QueenStagiaire]

The look of pure joy from a man who knows he's done nothing wrong.

Fresh as a daisy, breathing from his nose… oh wait. Trying to deduce if people are doping from how good or happy they look is still super-unreliable

 

[QueenStagiaire]

A lot seem to have forgotten what happened when Pogacar won the 2021 Tour. A seated attack on stage 8.

I don‘t think people have forgotten that, whatever explains today also explains that.

 

[Cookster15]

I don‘t think people have forgotten that, whatever explains today also explains that.

Not sure about that (forgotten). But all I know is it isn't motors.

 

[Casual cyclist]

What motor?

The one in Pogoclown's bike.

He was 19 seconds slower than JA.

Did you want him to go full gas -- or rather, full current, -- from the bottom. It was clear to everyone but the diehard apologists, that the plan was to "go" later on the climb, to make it look "normal". This time around, they misjudged the assist level on the side opposite to that in MSR. So, the "normal" part failed. A bit of advice to Mauro for the future: make Pogo stand on the pedals -- even if this is not needed -- during an acceleration on a close to 20% gradient. Otherwise, simply even the force -- not just the power -- does not match what everyone familiar with bike riding knows.

So are we saying his bike wasn't checked today?

Keeping up the "broken phone" game, aren't we? The difference between being checked and "checked" was explained -- as if it needs explanation -- many times on these pages.

I was hopeful this nonsense had died down but sadly we are back to full nonsense again.

Nonsense is what we all saw today on TV.

 

[romanzat]

When Healey start to overtake, his right thumb press secret button...check the foto.
https://file.si/LJPa/pogi-turns-on-turbo.jpg

 

[Casual cyclist]

Fresh as a daisy, breathing from his nose… oh wait. Trying to deduce if people are doping from how good or happy they look is still super-unreliable

But look at that dirt and the bored look on his face. Fresh he might be, but not quite as happy.

 

[Casual cyclist]

When Healey start to overtake, his right thumb press secret button...check the foto.
https://file.si/LJPa/pogi-turns-on-turbo.jpg

Conveniently hiding under the brake hood rubber. Makes perfect sense.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

I don’t really have a clue what’s going on, so I’m not going to call it one way or the other. However, I’ve said in the past that there is more than one indicator that this guy is ‘off’. Today we saw an acceleration from a group of world class riders that opened up a twenty meter gap in a few seconds. With hardly any sign of a huge effort and what that usually looks like. Not to mention that he has that in his locker after a very hard ride and when everyone else was peddling squares.
Beyond this race, a few telltale patterns are already well established. Pogacar doesnt seem to have a red zone. On the big climbs he can accelerate uphill at altitude and then keep the pace going. Very little easing off. People used to complain about the Sky Train keeping the effort so high that no one could attack without going into the red very quickly and having to pay for it. Stage wins were measured in seconds usually. Now we have a peloton going even faster, but Pogacar just destroys the field, and he does it day after day. No negative effects from the previous days efforts. No off days really.
And now we’re probably going to see a guy who has had a huge spring classics workload who will now effortlessly segue into a GT effort without any drop off in performance. Very weird at least. And my eyes and my brain tell me it’s too good to be true.

Well no disagreement here, I was merely talking about the "strange acceleration might be motor" perception.

 

[Casual cyclist]

Well no disagreement here, I was merely talking about the "strange acceleration might be motor" perception.

I guess an earlier commenter was right: if he goes 100km/h on the flat, many folks will still try to explain that via a "natural talent" and some "secret sauce" that makes those skinny legs push with the force of a hydraulic press.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

I guess an earlier commenter was right: if he goes 100km/h on the flat, many folks will still try to explain that via a "natural talent" and some "secret sauce" that makes those skinny legs push with the force of a hydraulic press.

Well he isn't though.
It's also not that the time up the mur was absurdly fast compared to the fastest time. Also one of the central questions to me remains: why would only Pogi have a motor?
How much power do these alleged motors produce in your opinion?

 

[zlev11]

So motors don't work well in bad weather?

straw man. motors work fine. motors aren't doing the whole thing. they add watts but they aren't all of the watts. the harder route and bad weather takes away some of the human-made watts. lower human watts make the motor watts even more obvious.

 

[zlev11]

A lot seem to have forgotten what happened when Pogacar won the 2021 Tour. A seated attack on stage 8.

yeah, one of the most obvious motordoping performances ever lmao

 

[Blobs]

Fresh as a daisy, breathing from his nose… oh wait. Trying to deduce if people are doping from how good or happy they look is still super-unreliable

I mean, he is breathing through his nose in that picture, unless he's holding his breath.

 

[zlev11]

Not sure about that (forgotten). But all I know is it isn't motors.

you KNOW? for SURE? did you also KNOW that Lance was clean? because you sound like the Lance apologist fairytale believers from 20 years ago.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

you KNOW? for SURE? did you also KNOW that Lance was clean? because you sound like the Lance apologist fairytale believers from 20 years ago.

There was heaps of circumstantial evidence for Lance, none of it was "just look how strange this looks!".
I'd not claim I know for sure it isn't motors, I just don't see a reason yet to believe it or to prefer it over PEDs as an explanation. And in this specific case, but maybe it's just me, I didn't see anything that looked like a motor accelleration to me. That's not even claiming it for sure isn't it's just claiming that I don't see the reason to believe it yet and none for why it should definitively be one, as you guys seem to believe.

 

[Casual cyclist]

Well he isn't though.
It's also not that the time up the mur was absurdly fast compared to the fastest time. Also one of the central questions to me remains: why would only Pogi have a motor?

We can't claim that it's only him. Recall the steadily rising average speeds since the covid and the much mentioned by the apologists fact that several people broke Pantani's record during the last year's TDF. What it looks like that Pogoclown and UAE have a sort of carte blanche for motor usage to any degree anywhere they please. Why is that? Probably some result of a bargain between the UAE gang and UCI with some good money changing hands.

How much power do these alleged motors produce in your opinion?

For a small brushless motor, sky is the limit. 500W+ easily. It all boils down to heat dissipation and battery capacity. But for just an occasional bike assist, the latter factor is not a real bottleneck. And the former is greatly helped by rain and cold, just like today and in that stage 8 of 2021 TDF with a similar seated acceleration.

 

[Casual cyclist]

you KNOW? for SURE? did you also KNOW that Lance was clean? because you sound like the Lance apologist fairytale believers from 20 years ago.

Some folks just make themselves KNOW what they find comforting to believe.

 

[AmRacer]

We can't claim that it's only him. Recall the steadily rising average speeds since the covid and the much mentioned by the apologists fact that several people broke Pantani's record during the last year's TDF. What it looks like that Pogoclown and UAE have a sort of carte blanche for motor usage to any degree anywhere they please. Why is that? Probably some result of a bargain between the UAE gang and UCI with some good money changing hands.

For a small brushless motor, sky is the limit. 500W+ easily. It all boils down to heat dissipation and battery capacity. But for just an occasional bike assist, the latter factor is not a real bottleneck. And the former is greatly helped by rain and cold, just like today and in that stage 8 of 2021 TDF with a similar seated acceleration.

Sometimes the motor malfunction, and Mathieu wins.

 

[Casual cyclist]

straw man. motors work fine. motors aren't doing the whole thing. they add watts but they aren't all of the watts. the harder route and bad weather takes away some of the human-made watts. lower human watts make the motor watts even more obvious.

That and the improved cooling that makes it easier to go "full ***" on e-power.

 

[zlev11]

There was heaps of circumstantial evidence for Lance, none of it was "just look how strange this looks!".
I'd not claim I know for sure it isn't motors, I just don't see a reason yet to believe it or to prefer it over PEDs as an explanation. And in this specific case, but maybe it's just me, I didn't see anything that looked like a motor accelleration to me. That's not even claiming it for sure isn't it's just claiming that I don't see the reason to believe it yet and none for why it should definitively be one, as you guys seem to believe.

the increase in speeds on climbs is enough circumstantial evidence. with the biopassport there's only a certain amount of oxygen vector doping you can get away with. there's only one way to go 4 minutes faster than Pantani. JC Peraud basically all but confirmed that motordoping has happened in big races.

 

[YellowSocks]

Something puzzles me: Pogacar seems to think that other riders are on the same level as him (although they all say he is in another league). When attacking today, he turned around to see if anyone was following him . In AGR, he reacted to Alaphilippe's attack and said in an interview that he was someone to watch out for . These are situations in which one reacts instinctively, without calculating.
Pogacar doesn't seem to know how strong he is. He thinks he can be beaten. That's weird. And that's not an argument in favour of electric assistance.

Edit : emojis made strange things like Pogi's bike.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

We can't claim that it's only him. Recall the steadily rising average speeds since the covid and the much mentioned by the apologists fact that several people broke Pantani's record during the last year's TDF. What it looks like that Pogoclown and UAE have a sort of carte blanche for motor usage to any degree anywhere they please. Why is that? Probably some result of a bargain between the UAE gang and UCI with some good money changing hands.

For a small brushless motor, sky is the limit. 500W+ easily. It all boils down to heat dissipation and battery capacity. But for just an occasional bike assist, the latter factor is not a real bottleneck. And the former is greatly helped by rain and cold, just like today and in that stage 8 of 2021 TDF with a similar seated acceleration.

See, there is a difference between being an apologist of someone, and just not following your line of reasoning.
You make claims about such motors, would you be so kind as to give a concrete example of an existing motor that could do such a trick in a bikeframe? Maybe you've done it before, and I just haven't seen it, but you will surely understand, that I can't go through all your posts to check for that.

 

[Casual cyclist]

See, there is a difference between being an apologist of someone, and just not following your line of reasoning.
You make claims about such motors, would you be so kind as to give a concrete example of an existing motor that could do such a trick in a bikeframe? Maybe you've done it before, and I just haven't seen it, but you will surely understand, that I can't go through all your posts to check for that.

I have not put motors in bikes yet but I used brushless in RC models and know what they can do with a lipo battery. Heat becomes a problem though if you push it. So cold and rainy weather helps a lot in this regard.

 

[QueenStagiaire]

yeah, one of the most obvious motordoping performances ever lmao

But isn‘t every Pogačar win an obvious motordoping performance? Or does he sometimes win without it and then turns it on on other days just because he hates the forum users here to make us feel bad feelings? When did he start with the motor? Was he using a motor in the 2017 Tour of Slovenia? The 2019 Vuelta? The 2020 Tour? The 2021 Tour but only when it was raining?

the increase in speeds on climbs is enough circumstantial evidence. with the biopassport there's only a certain amount of oxygen vector doping you can get away with. there's only one way to go 4 minutes faster than Pantani. JC Peraud basically all but confirmed that motordoping has happened in big races.

The biopassport, the last bastion of the anti-doping fight forces the riders to use motors? Now that‘s weird.





Some general implications: So all the other top guys like Vingegaard and Evenepoel who do inexplicable numbers also use motors but also only sometimes or their motors are weaker? That‘s when we just get to the point of the protagonists meeting up behind the scenes to discuss who gets to use his motor the most on any given day (it‘s always Pogačar, that‘s gotta be really expensive for UAE) being the only real explanation.