Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Stablo]

There's no comparison. These guys won next to nothing except their GTs. In the specialist era, we've never seen this.

This is also very true. It was not this bad, been a fan of the sport since the second half of the 90s and never seen anything like this. And then the tiktok-generation buys it at face value. omg.

 

[pelotonIQ]

Not at all. I've only called out Pogacar, although Del Toro has become suspicious as well. Coincidentally, the only 21 year olds dominating a GT in the past decade, were riders for the most fraudulent duo Gianetti and Matxin who never played fair ever.

Nobody claimed here that Vingegaard is clean. If you want to focus on Vingegaard or Visma, feel free to do so.

The mask has slipped. If that is the case then you don't truly care about doping and only use it as a screen to only discredit UAE riders no matter who it is. What about Grischa Niermann in Visma who is an admitted doper?

If Vingegaard starts dominating single day races all year round, I'll focus on him as well.

So you're saying that you're ok with doping as long the rider doesn't win every race? Vingegaard beat the guy you're 100% sure is doping in back to back Tours

 

[ashhutch1997]

If I would have been active in this forum during Lance, Froomie etc. times i would have "cried" here also. Blatantly obvious is the same no matter the time we live in.

You cant compare Armstrong/Froome to Pogacar. They were literally in top form for one race per year, not dominating every race all year.

 

[ashhutch1997]

So you're saying that you're ok with doping as long the rider doesn't win every race? Vingegaard beat the guy you're 100% sure is doping in back to back Tours

The problem is Pogacar is making it so blatant and completely taking the piss. The guy hasn't had an off day for the past two years. At least Vingegaard is only in top form once a year.

 

[SorelyBoy]

Stop it with the Froome mentions. Yeah, Sky pushed their luck, but any comparison to what’s happening now is idiotic. Back then we had mountain stages being controlled to within an inch of their life and riders actually having a red zone. As a result, attacks on the mountain stages lasted for tens of seconds and riders were separated by very fine margins at the end. Tactics across the wide variety of TDF stages actually mattered, as did TTTs. Remember echelons in cross winds, whatever happened to them? Remember downhill attacks? They could net you twenty seconds on a stage which was a HUGE advantage. Now, not so much. Not with Golden Balls able to sail away from all and sundry at will and looking as fresh as daisy doing it. I think he’ll attack ON A FLAT STAGE this year. Just watch.

 

[SorelyBoy]

The problem is Pogacar is making it so blatant and completely taking the piss. The guy hasn't had an off day for the past two years. At least Vingegaard is only in top form once a year.

The lack of off days, dips in form, is the biggest indicator which to me indicates he’s not only on the gear, but he and his team are doing something else which hasn’t been done before, at least not as blatantly or at this level. That they’re doing this without any apparent attempt to perhaps tone things down from time to time, to share at least some of the spoils, also indicates that they think they’re untouchable. The hubris is off the scale.

 

[pelotonIQ]

The problem is Pogacar is making it so blatant and completely taking the piss. The guy hasn't had an off day for the past two years. At least Vingegaard is only in top form once a year.

I can understand why people think suspiciously of Pogacar. If you're going to compare Pogacar with Vingegaard you can't ignore that he beat the ''so blatant'' Pogacar in consecutive Tours. Are you ok with doping as long as the rider doesn't win every race like Vingegaard?

 

[ashhutch1997]

I can understand why people think suspiciously of Pogacar. If you're going to compare Pogacar with Vingegaard you can't ignore that he beat the ''so blatant'' Pogacar in consecutive Tours. Are you ok with doping as long as the rider doesn't win every race like Vingegaard?

I don't care about the doping, I accept they are all doing it. But don't make a complete mochary of the sport like Pogacar.
I was a massive Pogacar fan boy until last year btw, but it just became too much.

 

[ashhutch1997]

The lack of off days, dips in form, is the biggest indicator which to me indicates he’s not only on the gear, but he and his team are doing something else which hasn’t been done before, at least not as blatantly or at this level. That they’re doing this without any apparent attempt to perhaps tone things down from time to time, to share at least some of the spoils, also indicates that they think they’re untouchable. The hubris is off the scale.

Absolute facts.

 

[Gianetti_Is_The_Goat]

The mask has slipped. If that is the case then you don't truly care about doping and only use it as a screen to only discredit UAE riders no matter who it is. What about Grischa Niermann in Visma who is an admitted doper?

So you're saying that you're ok with doping as long the rider doesn't win every race? Vingegaard beat the guy you're 100% sure is doping in back to back Tours

I focus on the worst and most obvious case. if that's a problem for you, go to the Vingegaard topic. I won't bother you there.

 

[pelotonIQ]

I focus on the worst and most obvious case. if that's a problem for you, go to the Vingegaard topic. I won't bother you there.

Do we see a little goalpost moving? Yes we do. ''worst and most obvious case'' yet you're yelling doping anytime a UAE rider wins I don't think you care about doping you just have a little bit of hatred for a particular team and use 'doping' as a screen to do so. I'll leave it at that, we'll enjoy Dauphine and the Tour and I'll come back to the ocean of tears that will accumulate in this thread.

 

[Raest]

one of the best features of the forum is how easy it is to add some in the ignore list.

 

[Gianetti_Is_The_Goat]

Do we see a little goalpost moving? Yes we do. ''worst and most obvious case'' yet you're yelling doping anytime a UAE rider wins I don't think you care about doping you just have a little bit of hatred for a particular team and use 'doping' as a screen to do so. I'll leave it at that, we'll enjoy Dauphine and the Tour and I'll come back to the ocean of tears that will accumulate in this thread.

Let's stick to the truth. "yet you're yelling doping anytime a UAE rider wins" is a blatant lie. It's about Pogacar and his management and yes, I despise those 2 guys in charge. That part is true. You can continue to copy Mou tweets on this forum. I won't bother you there.

 

[HashRouge]

I don't care about the doping, I accept they are all doing it. But don't make a complete mochary of the sport like Pogacar.
I was a massive Pogacar fan boy until last year btw, but it just became too much.

I don't mind people raising the doping question, but I find it odd that it gets brought up every time Pogacar wins, even when nothing seems particularly eyebrow raising about the win. Take today - we had a breakaway with MdvP, Pog, Jonas, Remco and Buitrago. Remco has to work hardest to get across to the breakaway, having missed the initial move. MdvP does most work in the group, being the guy most fancied to win the stage. He then launches his sprint much, much earlier than anyone else, and effectively leads out Pog, Jonas and Remco. Remco, who probably worked second hardest in the group (after MdvP), launches next, then Pogacar, with Jonas in the wheel. Pogacar just pips Jonas to the win. MdvP (who broke his wrist a few weeks ago!) comes third.

Now, I'm not trying to be ignorant, but I don't see anything about this victory makes "a complete mockery of the sport". I don't see anything suspicious about it, to be honest. I guess maybe you might say "well, he beat MdvP in a flat sprint", to which I raise you "so did Jonas Vingegaard".

 

[zlev11]

the climbs at the tour are gonna be so mf fast

 

[Salvarani]

Do we see a little goalpost moving? Yes we do. ''worst and most obvious case'' yet you're yelling doping anytime a UAE rider wins I don't think you care about doping you just have a little bit of hatred for a particular team and use 'doping' as a screen to do so. I'll leave it at that, we'll enjoy Dauphine and the Tour and I'll come back to the ocean of tears that will accumulate in this thread.

100% accurate assessment and observation of what is going on.

 

[ashhutch1997]

Now, I'm not trying to be ignorant, but I don't see anything about this victory makes "a complete mockery of the sport". I don't see anything suspicious about it, to be honest. I guess maybe you might say "well, he beat MdvP in a flat sprint", to which I raise you "so did Jonas Vingegaard".

I have no issues with today and that's not what I was referring to. My 'mochary of the sport' comment was referring to him rocking up to Flanders/ Roubaix and destroying cobblestone specialists as a GC rider, his 2024 season, breaking every single record, and literally not having a bad day for two years is what I have an issue with. I could go on.
As I said I used to love watching him race and was a huge fan, but he's gone way over the top now.

 

[Gianetti_Is_The_Goat]

I don't mind people raising the doping question, but I find it odd that it gets brought up every time Pogacar wins, even when nothing seems particularly eyebrow raising about the win. Take today - we had a breakaway with MdvP, Pog, Jonas, Remco and Buitrago. Remco has to work hardest to get across to the breakaway, having missed the initial move. MdvP does most work in the group, being the guy most fancied to win the stage. He then launches his sprint much, much earlier than anyone else, and effectively leads out Pog, Jonas and Remco. Remco, who probably worked second hardest in the group (after MdvP), launches next, then Pogacar, with Jonas in the wheel. Pogacar just pips Jonas to the win. MdvP (who broke his wrist a few weeks ago!) comes third.

Now, I'm not trying to be ignorant, but I don't see anything about this victory makes "a complete mockery of the sport". I don't see anything suspicious about it, to be honest. I guess maybe you might say "well, he beat MdvP in a flat sprint", to which I raise you "so did Jonas Vingegaard".

Agreed. This victory wasn't specifically remarkable; It's because he wins in every kind of discipline, all season on all terrain during multiple years often with considerable ease.

 

[kingjr]

Agreed. This victory wasn't specifically remarkable; It's because he wins in every kind of discipline, all season on all terrain during multiple years often with considerable ease.

And yet he lost the most important race on the calendar for two years on the trot, and when he won it again it was after his opponent had a serious injury during his preparation.

 

[kingjr]

Absolute facts.

There is no need to insult the meaning of the word "facts"

 

[gregrowlerson]

Wow, over a page of posts after a breakaway/sprint victory with seventy something riders on same time in stage 1 of Dauphne: this place is going to be really crazy come July

 

[FroomeWagon]

The lack of off days, dips in form, is the biggest indicator which to me indicates he’s not only on the gear, but he and his team are doing something else which hasn’t been done before, at least not as blatantly or at this level. That they’re doing this without any apparent attempt to perhaps tone things down from time to time, to share at least some of the spoils, also indicates that they think they’re untouchable. The hubris is off the scale.

Could it be he can't get off the gear or it will show up on the biological passport?

 

[AttaqueDeRolland]

I can understand why people think suspiciously of Pogacar. If you're going to compare Pogacar with Vingegaard you can't ignore that he beat the ''so blatant'' Pogacar in consecutive Tours. Are you ok with doping as long as the rider doesn't win every race like Vingegaard?

Credibility is a spectrum. If you're a highly specialized rider, who only really excels at GC's in mountainous and tough stage races, it's a much more credible situation than a rider who excels at genuinely everything, from riding Grand Tour GC's to beating heavy watt machines in spring classics. It's not a complex or difficult logic. It's about what is feasible and credible. Being a highly specialized rider? That seems both feasible and credible, because you're focusing all your efforts on a very specific kind of training and racing. Being the best at everything? That's neither feasible nor credible.

Look at Wout. He's such a ridiculously talented rider that 40 years ago, he would have been a Bernard Hinault, a rider able to win both Roubaix and the Tour. Today? It's simply not possible for a rider like him, because the sport has become so much more professionalized and scientific in it's approach, so whenever there's a reasonably good climber it's not difficult for his team to develop that specific skill set through a minute, highly detailed, scientifically backed training plan. That wasn't reality four decades ago, where the approach mostly was to train as hard and for as long as humanly possible.

Logically, if you want to compete in races like De Ronde and Roubaix, in order to reach those peak power wattages, you're going to have to sacrifice some of your climbing ability, in simple terms because you need to be a bit heavier. That's not the case for Tadej, though. He still easily outclimbs the most specialized of climbers, truly lightweight mountain specialists like Mas, Carapaz, Landa, Gall, and, of course, on numerous occasions, also Vingegaard.

 

[Mayomaniac]

The lack of off days, dips in form, is the biggest indicator which to me indicates he’s not only on the gear, but he and his team are doing something else which hasn’t been done before, at least not as blatantly or at this level. That they’re doing this without any apparent attempt to perhaps tone things down from time to time, to share at least some of the spoils, also indicates that they think they’re untouchable. The hubris is off the scale.

Plus the Emirates are in bed with the UCI, paying them off by hosting the 2022 and 2024 Urban Cycling WC, 2024 Esports Cycling WC, the 2028 road cycling championship and Granfondo WC (who wants to race a grandondo in the flat desert anyway?) and the 2029 track cycling WC.
They host a ton of events for the UCI, paying them a ton of money, while also having a state sponsored team that is at the top of the sport. Do we really think that their team doesn't have political protection?

 

[Red Rick]

Plus the Emirates are in bed with the UCI, paying them off by hosting the 2022 and 2024 Urban Cycling WC, 2024 Esports Cycling WC, the 2028 road cycling championship and Granfondo WC (who wants to race a grandondo in the flat desert anyway?) and the 2029 track cycling WC.
They host a ton of events for the UCI, paying them a ton of money, while also having a state sponsored team that is at the top of the sport. Do we really think that their team doesn't have political protection?

Nah man. Cycling is where the politicians are incorruptible, ignore all the evidence to ze contrary plez