This is The Clinic now where we have been discussing this. The thread for the monster creation of Gianetti. Friday and beer or wth? 🫡😅And yes after the TT I had hopes that we would be in for a good battle, fighting for the win, but the one monster just keeps on dominating. They have gone of limits the past 1,5 years, no drops in form, every discipline and fresh as a daisy all year around.
Today does follow the Mur de Huy performance though, where a sudden increase in power out of the saddle can be a big deal on a short climb and was not necessary for Pog on the Mur except for a brief moment.
So Tadej staying in the saddle today emphasizes his ease at dropping whoever he wants in the context of what happened during the Fleche.
- Sep 14, 2009
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A couple of thoughts ...
First, a number of people I am aware of actually think Pog sandbagged the TT a bit. He certainly did not look like he was giving the ol' Deadpool Maximum Effort. And it was definitely not a pacing issue.
Second - this is the clinic. So I don't know how to interpret your post.
- Aug 9, 2021
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I don't understand why every race has to be won. But I guess if you're used to it and has become "win tolerant" you have to win in bigger and better style with more minutes and crush the competition more and more each time.
Maybe he's become addicted not to winning but to humiliate. How small must the self confidence of such a person be.
Maybe he's become addicted not to winning but to humiliate. How small must the self confidence of such a person be.
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That's why it's called a 'race'. What is the point of racing then?
- Aug 13, 2011
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I’d want to win as much as I could. Nothing in sports is guaranteed, he could start struggling to win or an accident could derail his career. As slim as it is, this could be his last win. It’s like in team sports when one destroys the other and the losing team cries about the score, if you don’t want the score run up do something about it.
Cookster15
Moderator
- May 14, 2011
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Not sure I understand. Pogacar already had an underwhelming TT this week by his standards so this statement is plainly wrong. Asking why every race shouldn't be won also seems to relate to Armstrong's 'no gifts' statement in 2004. How would Vingegaard or anyone else feel if Pogacar gifted them a win - dare I say humiliated?
I also really doubt its got anything to do with Pogacar wanting to humiliate the opposition or lacking self confidence. Pogacar was on the receiving end of such a beating just two years back.
- Jul 14, 2024
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To me the performance today looked like a motor ... when he sped past the last breakaway rider seated, it didn't look like his quads were flexing normally as they would when you are pushing really hard (big ring, seated acceleration), in fact his cadence looked oddly relaxed. It was only a moment and then the camera switched to a different angle. I've never considered motor doping before, but the fully seated and kind of odd cadence looked almost like he was trying to disguise the hidden power. Pogacar is also known to almost always use the bike with the straight seat tube ... while the rest of the team has been on the Aero bike with the kinked seat tube (more difficult to install motor).
After the race what was also suspicious is he didn't get off his bike, he was sitting on it and riding it around to greet people until enough riders had come in and the chaos was large enough to hand the bike to a mechanic. I found that very odd.
After the race what was also suspicious is he didn't get off his bike, he was sitting on it and riding it around to greet people until enough riders had come in and the chaos was large enough to hand the bike to a mechanic. I found that very odd.
I'm sorry for responding in the traditional Clinic forum. Some of the posts suggested to me that there was a new tier of imaginary boogeyriders and cheating techniques. The speculation of possible methods to game the system was in a new realm for me. Doping? Yes. Federation officials that have a vested interest in not pursuing something suspicious, totally yes. UCI Federation President doing all of these to get a possible Olympic Commitee seat...most definitely yes.
The motor *** is so 2015...It's detectable by anyone near a rider so I can't go full gas on that level of stupid.
As for sandbagging the TT? I think he applied himself on the important research elements for future efforts. He stayed mostly seated during the TT like Remco and seemed very solid; particularly after losing 20+ seconds in the first, flat section. Vingo did not.
I'd call it more of a research exercise. Lessons learned played out today, minus the motors.
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Have you ever watched a fixed gear track racer in full spin? It's pure technique and suppleness. I mention Remco's similar climbing effort in the TT but no one seems to want to make that comparison.
By the way all: I made a mistaken venture into the Clinic. This discussion deserves it's own classification.
- Jul 7, 2013
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I think it's this year that he started doing more seated attacks. In the past every time he was out of the saddle when attacking Vingegaard but yesterday it was something else. I thought "staying in a saddle? How can he drop Vingegaard?" and after a few seconds I got the answer.
- May 29, 2011
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Mentioning femke is apt. Every race has now turned into a parakeets heist (they were of the sino afrodisiac variety, as far as I can remember blackcat's memeing here).
- Jul 27, 2023
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I don't believe in motor doping. I could imagine you get away with it once. But not in a so many races during the past 1,5 years or so. I understand they check the bikes at least from time to time after finish.
Also, would expect some rumors to be around and other teams become active.
If it was repeated motor doping, UCI should close down this sport.
Still, I have no idea what can get you to that level of metabolism / aerobic power output. As I understand, scientists do not constider this possible without MASSIVE medical intervention (but still no idea what exactly is the "new stuff").
Also, would expect some rumors to be around and other teams become active.
If it was repeated motor doping, UCI should close down this sport.
Still, I have no idea what can get you to that level of metabolism / aerobic power output. As I understand, scientists do not constider this possible without MASSIVE medical intervention (but still no idea what exactly is the "new stuff").
- Jul 10, 2012
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If it is obvious he is using motor-doping (I dont have the eye for detail and cant tell) and he is protected by UCI - how come the french police dont do something? As far as I recall, the Festina-case was a police and not UCI-case?
- Jul 4, 2010
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One of the most laughable things is the commentators and ex pros try and make us beleive he does this because gels now have more carbs in em 😂
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Yeah sure, especially for a 20min effort like yesterday
- Jul 4, 2010
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Yeh but at least the UCI caught her eh? Otherwise she would have ruined women's cycling.
Cookster15
Moderator
- May 14, 2011
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My feeling is motor doping isn’t possible without UCI protection. Any trained mechanic with access to the internet will know what to look for.
Everything suggested in this forum they would be aware of and know how to find it. As far as I know the UCI enforces the bike inspection rules for race winners and leaders. But even if they don’t Pogacar and UAE wouldn’t take that risk unless they knew they wouldn't be checked.
Holy moly! If it's detectable by anyone, please share your insight on how. We are not talking about the e-bikes you see on the normal streets with big batteries. They were able to make small motors/batteries hidden in the seat tubes over 25 years ago, that time we didn't even have smartphones or any other of the cutting edge technology of today. And I read here earlier, that they have somewhere invested hundreds of thousand € for very sophisticated systems, so they do exist and you can also buy a roadbike with one, if you can spare a couple tens of thousands on it. So imagine what can the richest team ever afford with it's unlimited resources. So sure you can easily detect it just by being close to a rider. And then you have the arrogance calling others stupid🤦🤌
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The thing is that he has also become such a big star of the sport, so if they weren't even complicit in it, I don't think a "bust" would come to the light. There's too much money and peoples livelyhood on the table, at least for now they wouldn't, but I hope people get bored/mad enough that it will change. The covering of traditional doping has happened before and even Lance wouldn't have been busted without the comeback and many angry compatriots. Well anyway I believe that the "covering" isn't even needed, cause there is the connection with UAE&UCI and at least from the outside it doesn't look good at all.
Nah I dont really buy the motor theory either, even if I am quite convinced it has been used by other riders for particular stages(we all know the usual suspects/clips of this). I am more leaning towards advanced bioengineering which is what will ultimately decide who's winning in sports if it's not already which I am starting to believe.
Just to be clear I am not ruling out motor doping either, would be a fool to rule out any sort of cheating with the money at stake and with the people involved in the sport. It's just that I think we are on the very edge of gene doping etc so who's to say there aren't a couple of prototypes out already.
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- Jun 10, 2010
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The thing with motors is, if the technology is there motors won't give you an edge over any competitors who are also using motors (and if the technology is there and it's normal and people are not being caught, why wouldn't they). Compare to PEDs which give a much more variable edge depending on how good of a responder you are, which PEDs you're using and how good your doctor is. Compare also the volume of information and credible whispers about doping in the peloton compared to motors.
At present, the motor theory is just a magic solution to any problem. "Can't explain this, must be motors".
At present, the motor theory is just a magic solution to any problem. "Can't explain this, must be motors".
Imho If and a big If monsta doesn't have an advantage in a very new sophisticated motor, then his on some new&better biological enhanchment. I'm not looking at any certain one event/race, but the bigger picture specially for the past 1,5 year. It's just too unnatural with all terrain, all year around and almost every race domination. If it's so, then I'm worried about the (long term) effects of the stuff the guy(s) is using. With something completely new you can't yet have a lot of scientific data, of the possible hasards and side effects.
You are in the clinic bro!
Very long-time lurker (no idea why I chose that username back in the day) but thought I'd finally chip in. This is all like a big, giant puzzle that we're all helping each other to solve. I've been following cycling since 2003 so I've seen my fair share but this is all just something else, as most of you also seem to agree. I'll go through the thoughts I've had on the whole motor question after just setting the scene.
So, what is going on with Pogacar, that is the big question. We already know the facts - a rider that wins in every terrain, all year round, without looking tired, and who went from being the best cyclist in the world to suddenly being by far the best during winter 2023/24, now producing watts that are absolutely unheard of.
It almost seems like there are two of him by now. There's a surprisingly human one that comes out once in a while (Le Lioran, Amstel, Dauphiné time trial the other day) and reminds us of the Pogacar of 2019-23, but that one is so far always followed by the super machine that absolutely cripples everyone else. Where, for other riders, a bad day is often sign that more bad days are coming, for Pogacar a bad day is sign that he is going to destroy everyone a few days after.
Why does the question of motors keep coming up? Probably because it lets us fit a lot of things together that we now have a hard time explaining because we're missing that 'something' (for example, a new drug) that might otherwise explain things. Unless, of course, you buy the Javier Sola story, which you might, but which you probably don't unless you're new to cycling
The use of motors is, on the face of it, a ludicrous idea. I still think so, but not as much as I used to. Looking into it over the past couple of years, my attitude has changed mainly because there's now just so much smoke about past use that - given the history of cycling - it is not unreasonable to claim there may have been a fire. We have the chief of the French Anti-Doping Agency being told by insiders that 12 riders used motors during the 2015 Tour (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/60-minutes-investigates-hidden-motors-and-pro-cycling/), we had the by now famous French documentary showing what may very well have been use of motors during Strade in 2016 (that video has now been taken down from YouTube, I see), there's the LeMond saying he heard that Cancellara used motors (
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNFyYjKCcKU
), and then there's former UCI anti-motordoping tsar Péraud who just last year said that he was "confident it’s not happening any more" (https://spectrum.ieee.org/motor-doping-cycling). That is, confident it's not happening "any more". And lastly, there's the journalists speaking out in the Ghost In the Machine podcast who seem certain that it was going on, who have found evidence that a pro team bought motorized bikes, but who just cannot get someone to speak out publicly. There's also a former pro in that podcast saying that motorized bikes were used.
So, by now there's now a lot of people who need to be lying for no particular reason (nobody's become rich claiming something on motors) if we still want to claim that motors weren't used in the past. So, if it was happening 10 years ago, why wouldn't it be happening today? I think that's an interesting question.
There are two often-heard claims against the motordoping theory. One is not very good, the other better, I think.
The first one is that UCI would not allow it, that they would easily catch the ones doing. I don't believe that. They apparently haven't found the people using motors in the past. And say Pogacar was using a motor, and you put yourself in the shoes of the UCI. What do you do? Imagine you catch him using a motor and go public, and you have the biggest cycling scandal ever. You then probably lose the sponsorships of the UAE - who sponsor two cycling teams, one of the biggest cycling races, who sponsor the World Championships on road in 2028 and track in 2029, and who are indirectly the main sponsor behind the UCI's e-bike World Championships. The UCI have NO interest in catching Pogacar. This fits how the UCI tried to hide Armstrong's and Contador's doping cases. Most probably, they don't check bikes in a very thorough manner - they do just enough to show that something is being done but not enough to ever catch someone. And if you follow Lappartient on Twitter, you can see him glorifying Pogacar - no way he wants to take him down.
One should remember that many of the big cycling busts have come with the help of police investigations. This was because doping was seen as a threat to public health. But there's no threat to public health here, so the police won't care. Another vessel of doping busts were journalists. But cycling journalism has mostly become fanboy-ism. Everyone's a freelancer these days needing their next contract so nobody wants to mess with the show. In Denmark, we used to have some quite good, critical journalists (who played large parts in getting Riis and Michael Rasmussen down) but none of these are in cycling journalism anymore; instead, because of the great success of Danish cycling, nobody probably is allowed to rock the boat anymore.
The better objection against use of motors is that, if one team is using them, why not others? There's no good argument here, only that perhaps some teams are less willing to take that risk than others. Reading Michael Rasmussen's memoirs, it's clear that the old Rabobank leadership were never supportive of the full doping programme that Rasmussen needed to win the Tour, they always tried to hold him back a little from those last blood bags at the right time, seemingly afraid of the consequences. It may also be that there's a technical aspect where one team has an advantage, not unlike Formula 1 where you might also say "why don't the others just do this" - and the answer is that they don't know exactly what the others are doing.
So, none of this proves that Pogacar is using a motor. But the motor explanation just helps us right now. It explains the massive increase in ability between 2023 and 2024. It explains the seated accelerations. It explains why he's never tired, it explains how he can be so good all the time, how he can increase his level massively from one day to the other, and may also explain why he seems less and less happy to actually win. It doesn't, however, explain why he just once in a while doesn't perform. What was wrong on the time trial the other day? Why was Pogacar so interested in Vingegaard's bike?
Here's a theory I had: Pogacar is a true winner, above all else he wants to win. He was humiliated on Comboux in 2023. How could Vingegaard be so good, he must have thought, I did pretty well myself. Ok so, during winter 2023/24, UAE conjure up something. They quickly realize that this is just some next level stuff they've found, whatever it is. They know that people are going to ask questions. So, they leak some information of the transformed Pogacar to the most gullible, attention-seeking people around them that they know of. And there's somebody who catches on to it, his name is mou. So now mou spreads all these stories about the transformed Pogacar and the better training and so on, so that when Pogacar turns on the heat in the third week of the Tour 2024, it comes as less of a surprise. Of course he's so good now, UAE can then say, people already knew of this back in March! And now there's no turning back. Pogacar and UAE are too big to fail.
And a last interesting point, there's talk in the peloton - not about motors per se, but about whether UAE are doping or not. Some in the peloton think they are, said Magnus Cort in a recent interview (unfortunately behind paywall now: https://www.feltet.dk/nyheder/tanker_om_pogacar_og_ucis_dumme_boeder/10830607)
So, what is going on with Pogacar, that is the big question. We already know the facts - a rider that wins in every terrain, all year round, without looking tired, and who went from being the best cyclist in the world to suddenly being by far the best during winter 2023/24, now producing watts that are absolutely unheard of.
It almost seems like there are two of him by now. There's a surprisingly human one that comes out once in a while (Le Lioran, Amstel, Dauphiné time trial the other day) and reminds us of the Pogacar of 2019-23, but that one is so far always followed by the super machine that absolutely cripples everyone else. Where, for other riders, a bad day is often sign that more bad days are coming, for Pogacar a bad day is sign that he is going to destroy everyone a few days after.
Why does the question of motors keep coming up? Probably because it lets us fit a lot of things together that we now have a hard time explaining because we're missing that 'something' (for example, a new drug) that might otherwise explain things. Unless, of course, you buy the Javier Sola story, which you might, but which you probably don't unless you're new to cycling
The use of motors is, on the face of it, a ludicrous idea. I still think so, but not as much as I used to. Looking into it over the past couple of years, my attitude has changed mainly because there's now just so much smoke about past use that - given the history of cycling - it is not unreasonable to claim there may have been a fire. We have the chief of the French Anti-Doping Agency being told by insiders that 12 riders used motors during the 2015 Tour (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/60-minutes-investigates-hidden-motors-and-pro-cycling/), we had the by now famous French documentary showing what may very well have been use of motors during Strade in 2016 (that video has now been taken down from YouTube, I see), there's the LeMond saying he heard that Cancellara used motors (
), and then there's former UCI anti-motordoping tsar Péraud who just last year said that he was "confident it’s not happening any more" (https://spectrum.ieee.org/motor-doping-cycling). That is, confident it's not happening "any more". And lastly, there's the journalists speaking out in the Ghost In the Machine podcast who seem certain that it was going on, who have found evidence that a pro team bought motorized bikes, but who just cannot get someone to speak out publicly. There's also a former pro in that podcast saying that motorized bikes were used.
So, by now there's now a lot of people who need to be lying for no particular reason (nobody's become rich claiming something on motors) if we still want to claim that motors weren't used in the past. So, if it was happening 10 years ago, why wouldn't it be happening today? I think that's an interesting question.
There are two often-heard claims against the motordoping theory. One is not very good, the other better, I think.
The first one is that UCI would not allow it, that they would easily catch the ones doing. I don't believe that. They apparently haven't found the people using motors in the past. And say Pogacar was using a motor, and you put yourself in the shoes of the UCI. What do you do? Imagine you catch him using a motor and go public, and you have the biggest cycling scandal ever. You then probably lose the sponsorships of the UAE - who sponsor two cycling teams, one of the biggest cycling races, who sponsor the World Championships on road in 2028 and track in 2029, and who are indirectly the main sponsor behind the UCI's e-bike World Championships. The UCI have NO interest in catching Pogacar. This fits how the UCI tried to hide Armstrong's and Contador's doping cases. Most probably, they don't check bikes in a very thorough manner - they do just enough to show that something is being done but not enough to ever catch someone. And if you follow Lappartient on Twitter, you can see him glorifying Pogacar - no way he wants to take him down.
One should remember that many of the big cycling busts have come with the help of police investigations. This was because doping was seen as a threat to public health. But there's no threat to public health here, so the police won't care. Another vessel of doping busts were journalists. But cycling journalism has mostly become fanboy-ism. Everyone's a freelancer these days needing their next contract so nobody wants to mess with the show. In Denmark, we used to have some quite good, critical journalists (who played large parts in getting Riis and Michael Rasmussen down) but none of these are in cycling journalism anymore; instead, because of the great success of Danish cycling, nobody probably is allowed to rock the boat anymore.
The better objection against use of motors is that, if one team is using them, why not others? There's no good argument here, only that perhaps some teams are less willing to take that risk than others. Reading Michael Rasmussen's memoirs, it's clear that the old Rabobank leadership were never supportive of the full doping programme that Rasmussen needed to win the Tour, they always tried to hold him back a little from those last blood bags at the right time, seemingly afraid of the consequences. It may also be that there's a technical aspect where one team has an advantage, not unlike Formula 1 where you might also say "why don't the others just do this" - and the answer is that they don't know exactly what the others are doing.
So, none of this proves that Pogacar is using a motor. But the motor explanation just helps us right now. It explains the massive increase in ability between 2023 and 2024. It explains the seated accelerations. It explains why he's never tired, it explains how he can be so good all the time, how he can increase his level massively from one day to the other, and may also explain why he seems less and less happy to actually win. It doesn't, however, explain why he just once in a while doesn't perform. What was wrong on the time trial the other day? Why was Pogacar so interested in Vingegaard's bike?
Here's a theory I had: Pogacar is a true winner, above all else he wants to win. He was humiliated on Comboux in 2023. How could Vingegaard be so good, he must have thought, I did pretty well myself. Ok so, during winter 2023/24, UAE conjure up something. They quickly realize that this is just some next level stuff they've found, whatever it is. They know that people are going to ask questions. So, they leak some information of the transformed Pogacar to the most gullible, attention-seeking people around them that they know of. And there's somebody who catches on to it, his name is mou. So now mou spreads all these stories about the transformed Pogacar and the better training and so on, so that when Pogacar turns on the heat in the third week of the Tour 2024, it comes as less of a surprise. Of course he's so good now, UAE can then say, people already knew of this back in March! And now there's no turning back. Pogacar and UAE are too big to fail.
And a last interesting point, there's talk in the peloton - not about motors per se, but about whether UAE are doping or not. Some in the peloton think they are, said Magnus Cort in a recent interview (unfortunately behind paywall now: https://www.feltet.dk/nyheder/tanker_om_pogacar_og_ucis_dumme_boeder/10830607)
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